Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?
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S
The church has always been in discussion on the meaning of the book of Revelation. There has never been a unanimous consensus on every interpretation. We see in part, we have to stay humble and do the best we can.
I don't accuse post trib view of being false or pre trib view. They are two attempts at understanding the scriptures and both sides can present their hermeneutics.
I read books by theologians presenting arguments on both sides. I have found both sides to have a case.
I am willing to side with the view that does the best job of interpreting scriptures using common rules of interpretation.
I understand the reasoning both sides give for their views and frankly both have some strong solid interpretations and both sides have instances of faulty interpretations. It could be that both sides are partially accurate and partially mistaken.
I am not in a rush to take a stand on something that is not that clear to me yet. I will wait and learn more. As I learn I will not accuse either side of being false teachers.
If your view is based on common rules of interpretation then doing a good job of communicating them is the correct way to share with people. If you do a good job and your hermeneutics are correct, the intellectually honest person will welcome your explanations. There is never a need to accuse the opposing view of being a false teacher when it comes to the timing of the rapture.
I have a whole stack of books suggested to me from bibliographies from authors who are supposed to be good at presenting their view for Post, Pre and even amillennial. So far in my reading of these books the pre trib authors are doing a better job in making their case. But I am not even half way through the books I have purchased on eschatology. I have other study requirements and I cannot devote all my time on eschatology so it will be a while before I become "expert" in all the scriptures on the subject
My fellowship teaches a pre trib pre millennial view but if someone is post trib they don't call them a false teacher or get concerned about it, as they leave room for differences of interpretation on it. This is not an essential doctrine to us. It is one where it is ok for people to figure it out for themselves and we understand that we can be wrong about it and still be saved.
I don't accuse post trib view of being false or pre trib view. They are two attempts at understanding the scriptures and both sides can present their hermeneutics.
I read books by theologians presenting arguments on both sides. I have found both sides to have a case.
I am willing to side with the view that does the best job of interpreting scriptures using common rules of interpretation.
I understand the reasoning both sides give for their views and frankly both have some strong solid interpretations and both sides have instances of faulty interpretations. It could be that both sides are partially accurate and partially mistaken.
I am not in a rush to take a stand on something that is not that clear to me yet. I will wait and learn more. As I learn I will not accuse either side of being false teachers.
If your view is based on common rules of interpretation then doing a good job of communicating them is the correct way to share with people. If you do a good job and your hermeneutics are correct, the intellectually honest person will welcome your explanations. There is never a need to accuse the opposing view of being a false teacher when it comes to the timing of the rapture.
I have a whole stack of books suggested to me from bibliographies from authors who are supposed to be good at presenting their view for Post, Pre and even amillennial. So far in my reading of these books the pre trib authors are doing a better job in making their case. But I am not even half way through the books I have purchased on eschatology. I have other study requirements and I cannot devote all my time on eschatology so it will be a while before I become "expert" in all the scriptures on the subject
My fellowship teaches a pre trib pre millennial view but if someone is post trib they don't call them a false teacher or get concerned about it, as they leave room for differences of interpretation on it. This is not an essential doctrine to us. It is one where it is ok for people to figure it out for themselves and we understand that we can be wrong about it and still be saved.
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God's holy ones, the church is restraining him. But he wants to deceive them into thinking, they do not need to be concerned about him, and restrain him, as they will be raptured before his lawlessness is revealed. Daniel teaches us in Daniel 8:24 that the revealed lawless one will also destroy the might of God's holy ones.
II Thessalonians 2 (NKJV)
1Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
You are right, we look to Daniel for the answer to this mystery, it is when God's holy people is out of the way, out of the way, removed from any position of power or influence. The Church fathers had it figured out, and like Christ Yeshua, taught their flock to be prepared for the post-tribulation, pre-millenium return of Christ Yeshua. Imagine Christ Yeshua, teaching his apostles to go out and proclaim the gospels among the nation, and then added false hope telling them you will escape trials, tribulations and persecutions, only for eleven out of the twelve to meet a death of martyrdom - that would not have deceived them - instead of them telling to persevere in their faith, even unto death. The early Church fathers knew of persecution of the saints not being the wrath of God, as will the great tribulation, being a trial of faith not to take the mark of the beast, be. The wrath of God will not come on those that by the power of God's Holy Spirit, do not take the mark of the beast during the great tribulation, but the wrath of God will come on those that do.
Daniel 8 (NKJV)
23“And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
24His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.
25“Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
But he shall be broken without human means.
26“And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.”
II Thessalonians 2 (NKJV)
1Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
You are right, we look to Daniel for the answer to this mystery, it is when God's holy people is out of the way, out of the way, removed from any position of power or influence. The Church fathers had it figured out, and like Christ Yeshua, taught their flock to be prepared for the post-tribulation, pre-millenium return of Christ Yeshua. Imagine Christ Yeshua, teaching his apostles to go out and proclaim the gospels among the nation, and then added false hope telling them you will escape trials, tribulations and persecutions, only for eleven out of the twelve to meet a death of martyrdom - that would not have deceived them - instead of them telling to persevere in their faith, even unto death. The early Church fathers knew of persecution of the saints not being the wrath of God, as will the great tribulation, being a trial of faith not to take the mark of the beast, be. The wrath of God will not come on those that by the power of God's Holy Spirit, do not take the mark of the beast during the great tribulation, but the wrath of God will come on those that do.
Daniel 8 (NKJV)
23“And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
24His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.
25“Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
But he shall be broken without human means.
26“And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.”
There is only one truth, for some people it might be the inconvenient truth. Whose test is it not to take the mark of the beast? And by whose power will God's children face earthly persecution (like his apostles did), and not take the mark of the beast? And who will receive the wrath of God, those that took the mark of the beast, and not God's children that refused to take the mark of the beast?
The "first resurrection" (of those that died in Christ for their testimony of believing in Christ) happens after the great tribulation, at the return of Christ Yeshua, with the rapture.
Revelation 20 (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 4 (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
If you are so convinced of a pre-trib rapture, kindly present your scriptural evidence, as it sure is a nice message to "tickling ears", but is contrary to the message of our faith that needs to persevere even through trials and tribulations.
The "first resurrection" (of those that died in Christ for their testimony of believing in Christ) happens after the great tribulation, at the return of Christ Yeshua, with the rapture.
Revelation 20 (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 4 (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
If you are so convinced of a pre-trib rapture, kindly present your scriptural evidence, as it sure is a nice message to "tickling ears", but is contrary to the message of our faith that needs to persevere even through trials and tribulations.
S
The pre trib premil view does not teach ....you will escape trials, tribulations and persecutions, ...
I don't think that which withholdeth is the Holy Spirit in the church. Nor do I think it is the church. The pretrib view is that when the church is raptured there is no salt in the earth and nothing to hold back the wicked one. I don't think that is the interpretation.
Nor do I think it what you are trying to present. I don't think that the church is restraining the revelation of the Antichrist.
I don't think that which withholdeth is the Holy Spirit in the church. Nor do I think it is the church. The pretrib view is that when the church is raptured there is no salt in the earth and nothing to hold back the wicked one. I don't think that is the interpretation.
Nor do I think it what you are trying to present. I don't think that the church is restraining the revelation of the Antichrist.
Let us not be self deceived in our faith in Christ Yeshua, we are asked to bear our cross and follow him, sometimes in worldly persecution, as he has conquered life eternal. Those in Him dies once are born twice, those not in him are borne once and dies twice, dying this physical temporary life as well as the eternal death.
Luke 8 (NKJV)
13But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
John 16 (NKJV)
31Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe? 32Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. 33These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
Luke 8 (NKJV)
13But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
John 16 (NKJV)
31Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe? 32Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. 33These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
I don't feel motivated to try and present the case for either side. I will wait until I have a better handle on my personal view. I am still open to both. And I don't feel comfortable with arguing with someone who uses the word Yeshua. 
What is that all about?
What is that all about?
Yeshua is our Messiah's (in Greek our Christ's) Hebrew name, in English it translates to Salvation.
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Correct.
In fact, Paul (in his 2nd epistle to the Thessalonians) was acknowledging that the Thessalonians were presently [in their day] ONGOINGLY experiencing very negative "tribulations and persecutions which ye endure/bear-with [present tense]" 2Th1:4... and he goes on to make the point (in 2:2,15), for them not to be convinced by anyone trying to tell them that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative; G1764 - enestēken / enistémi - https://biblehub.com/greek/1764.htm ]"... it wasn't... and he is conveying WHY this is so.
But it was a PERFECTLY REASONABLE thing for them to be [wrongly] persuaded to think was true BECAUSE of their PRESENT and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE circumstances they were in. [again, 2Th1:4!]
He had already acknowledged in his 1st epistle to them, that "[they] KNOW PERFECTLY that the day of the Lord so cometh [/ARRIVES] as a thief IN THE NIGHT"... and as the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that comes UPON a woman in labor (and we know that Jesus spoke of this very thing in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 ["G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'] as the INITIAL ASPECT of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" not the final aspects of them in this section of the Olivet Discourse (and these are parallel the SEALS of Rev6, at the START of the future trib yrs).
However, today's believers are confused as to what all "the Day of the Lord" entails, rather embracing the faulty "Amill-teaching's" definition of it, instead of the biblical definition of it... and thus taking their first mis-step and consequently not grasping and understanding just what Paul is actually conveying in these contexts, esp. 2Th2:2
In fact, Paul (in his 2nd epistle to the Thessalonians) was acknowledging that the Thessalonians were presently [in their day] ONGOINGLY experiencing very negative "tribulations and persecutions which ye endure/bear-with [present tense]" 2Th1:4... and he goes on to make the point (in 2:2,15), for them not to be convinced by anyone trying to tell them that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative; G1764 - enestēken / enistémi - https://biblehub.com/greek/1764.htm ]"... it wasn't... and he is conveying WHY this is so.
But it was a PERFECTLY REASONABLE thing for them to be [wrongly] persuaded to think was true BECAUSE of their PRESENT and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE circumstances they were in. [again, 2Th1:4!]
He had already acknowledged in his 1st epistle to them, that "[they] KNOW PERFECTLY that the day of the Lord so cometh [/ARRIVES] as a thief IN THE NIGHT"... and as the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that comes UPON a woman in labor (and we know that Jesus spoke of this very thing in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 ["G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'] as the INITIAL ASPECT of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" not the final aspects of them in this section of the Olivet Discourse (and these are parallel the SEALS of Rev6, at the START of the future trib yrs).
However, today's believers are confused as to what all "the Day of the Lord" entails, rather embracing the faulty "Amill-teaching's" definition of it, instead of the biblical definition of it... and thus taking their first mis-step and consequently not grasping and understanding just what Paul is actually conveying in these contexts, esp. 2Th2:2
^ ... so yeah, "the Church which is His body" has experienced "persecutionS and tribulationS" ALL THROUGHOUT its existence on the earth [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)], since the first century and up until our Rapture event, we are not waiting for the future, 7-yr period in order to experience it
(... and that is not its purpose, anyway).
(... and that is not its purpose, anyway).
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^ ... so yeah, "the Church which is His body" has experienced "persecutionS and tribulationS" ALL THROUGHOUT its existence on the earth [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)], since the first century and up until our Rapture event, we are not waiting for the future, 7-yr period in order to experience it
(... and that is not its purpose, anyway).
(... and that is not its purpose, anyway).
Revelation 20 (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 4 (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[/QUOTE]
I can... but if I may clarify something first...
the biblical term "RETURN" (when used re: Jesus) speaks ONLY of His Second Coming to the earth:
--Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44[see parallels],45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED 'Bridegroom' WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] His 'Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]')... THEN the meal [G347]
("the meal [G347]" i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS," aka "the age [SINGULAR] to come"]--I think we agree there will be this earthly MK age following His "RETURN" to the earth);
--Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" ['cities' are on the earth], and "be thou likewise over 5 cities"
In each of these passages (and parallels to them [and there are many!]), He is returning to the earth WHERE these people are LOCATED upon His "RETURN" there.
(IOW, none of these are "Rapture" passages. Up to and including His ENTIRE Olivet Discourse, Jesus had not spoken ANYTHING regarding the Subject of "our Rapture," but ALL ABOUT "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH," FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth, the Rev19 time-slot [and where "saints" who will have come to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"), the still-living ones anyway, will be LOCATED, and THEY will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children... just as in Noah's day (compare Matt24:37 and context, with both Dan2:35 and Gen9:1 "[actively] FILL/FILLED the [whole] earth")--and note that ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/coming of/etc" contexts speak of His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the earthly MK age--see again Matt24:37 and context; i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth [not "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," per context])
the biblical term "RETURN" (when used re: Jesus) speaks ONLY of His Second Coming to the earth:
--Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44[see parallels],45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED 'Bridegroom' WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] His 'Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]')... THEN the meal [G347]
("the meal [G347]" i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS," aka "the age [SINGULAR] to come"]--I think we agree there will be this earthly MK age following His "RETURN" to the earth);
--Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" ['cities' are on the earth], and "be thou likewise over 5 cities"
In each of these passages (and parallels to them [and there are many!]), He is returning to the earth WHERE these people are LOCATED upon His "RETURN" there.
(IOW, none of these are "Rapture" passages. Up to and including His ENTIRE Olivet Discourse, Jesus had not spoken ANYTHING regarding the Subject of "our Rapture," but ALL ABOUT "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH," FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth, the Rev19 time-slot [and where "saints" who will have come to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"), the still-living ones anyway, will be LOCATED, and THEY will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children... just as in Noah's day (compare Matt24:37 and context, with both Dan2:35 and Gen9:1 "[actively] FILL/FILLED the [whole] earth")--and note that ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/coming of/etc" contexts speak of His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the earthly MK age--see again Matt24:37 and context; i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth [not "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," per context])
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So is earth's atmosphere part of the earth?
Revelation 20 (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 4 (KJV)
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 20 (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 4 (KJV)
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
^ I had pointed out in a past post, that the ppl in 20:4a are distinct from those in 20:4b [all are 'saints,' though, mind you].
V.20:4a parallels what we read in Daniel 7:22[27], and speaks of the "still-living [/mortal]" ppl [saints] at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth), same as Dan12:12 speaks of: "BLESSED is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days" (parallel to about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking to this point-in-time / subject... all speaking of the "still-living" [and still-earthly-located] 'saints' that will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies, upon His "RETURN" there).
V.20b speaks of the last of the saints to "die/be beheaded/martyred" [and then be resurrected] before the earthly MK age commences (upon His "RETURN" to the earth).
Where v.5 says, "This is the resurrection the first," I believe that speaks of "the resurrection OF LIFE" (/"the resurrection of the JUST/RIGHTEOUS"... i.e. saved persons... in CONTRAST to "the resurrection of JUDGMENT/damnation"). 1Cor15:23 says, "[re: resurrection]... but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" (as though there is a SEQUENCE to it that does not indicate that there [yet] remains only ONE at one point in time). I believe this is what Paul was tasked with unfolding (doctrinal truths pertaining to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"/all those 'saved' in this present age), when he said "Behold, I shew you A MYSTERY" and then proceeded to say, "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (speaking IN PARTICULAR to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]--NOT what Martha [and Job and Daniel] already WELL-KNEW!! Not that same point that all OT saints already clearly grasped ["resurrection=to stand again on the earth"]. Not that! (tho it is true that "THIS corruptible [i.e. "the DEAD IN Christ"] will "rise first" [/be resurrected from the dead] in order to take part in the "SNATCH" [/Rapture--"the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR"--"our episynagoges [noun] UNTO HIM"], but that this is distinct from the other).
--but with "the resurrection OF LIFE" are you thinking that this has NEVER happened at any other point in time except Rev20:5 (His Second Coming to the earth point in time)?
Verse 6 goes on to say, "Blessed and holy is the one having A PART [G3313 - meros] in the first resurrection [/the resurrection the first]! Over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." Does "the second death" have power over the "many saints" that arose in Matt27:52 (32ad), for example? Or over the 2W who will be resurrected at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" time-frame, for another example (of a wholly distinct time-slot)? No, it will not. But why not? Why is this so?? (My viewpoint can explain this... but yours cannot.)
V.20:4a parallels what we read in Daniel 7:22[27], and speaks of the "still-living [/mortal]" ppl [saints] at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth), same as Dan12:12 speaks of: "BLESSED is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days" (parallel to about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking to this point-in-time / subject... all speaking of the "still-living" [and still-earthly-located] 'saints' that will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies, upon His "RETURN" there).
V.20b speaks of the last of the saints to "die/be beheaded/martyred" [and then be resurrected] before the earthly MK age commences (upon His "RETURN" to the earth).
Where v.5 says, "This is the resurrection the first," I believe that speaks of "the resurrection OF LIFE" (/"the resurrection of the JUST/RIGHTEOUS"... i.e. saved persons... in CONTRAST to "the resurrection of JUDGMENT/damnation"). 1Cor15:23 says, "[re: resurrection]... but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" (as though there is a SEQUENCE to it that does not indicate that there [yet] remains only ONE at one point in time). I believe this is what Paul was tasked with unfolding (doctrinal truths pertaining to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"/all those 'saved' in this present age), when he said "Behold, I shew you A MYSTERY" and then proceeded to say, "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (speaking IN PARTICULAR to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]--NOT what Martha [and Job and Daniel] already WELL-KNEW!! Not that same point that all OT saints already clearly grasped ["resurrection=to stand again on the earth"]. Not that! (tho it is true that "THIS corruptible [i.e. "the DEAD IN Christ"] will "rise first" [/be resurrected from the dead] in order to take part in the "SNATCH" [/Rapture--"the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR"--"our episynagoges [noun] UNTO HIM"], but that this is distinct from the other).
--but with "the resurrection OF LIFE" are you thinking that this has NEVER happened at any other point in time except Rev20:5 (His Second Coming to the earth point in time)?
Verse 6 goes on to say, "Blessed and holy is the one having A PART [G3313 - meros] in the first resurrection [/the resurrection the first]! Over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." Does "the second death" have power over the "many saints" that arose in Matt27:52 (32ad), for example? Or over the 2W who will be resurrected at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" time-frame, for another example (of a wholly distinct time-slot)? No, it will not. But why not? Why is this so?? (My viewpoint can explain this... but yours cannot.)
I do not know what is your viewpoint. Where or how, would you like to split Revelation 20:4 into two? Thus, as requested previously:
Revelation 20 (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 4 (KJV)
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 20 (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 4 (KJV)
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
As my post indicated:
--v.20:4a = still-living saints (who come to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN the [7] trib years) who survive the trib yrs... this is what Daniel 7:22[27] is speaking of ("22 and judgment was given to the saints of the most High"--see again the wording in Rev20:4a); these enter the MK age in their mortal bodies;
[separated by the phrase "AND I saw..."]
--v.20:4b = those saints (also who come to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN the [7] trib yrs) who DIE [/are martyred] in the trib years, and are "resurrected" [means: "to stand again [on the earth]"] also at that same time-slot; these enter the MK age in "resurrected" bodies (which are said to be "like the angels"... who do not marry nor bear children... [i.e. Scripture says "in the resurrection they..." Matt22:30])
NEITHER of these ^ (two parts/groups, in this verse) are speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (who will have been "changed" and "caught up" WELL-BEFORE this point in time, way back PRIOR TO the FIRST SEAL being opened, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Rev5:6, Isa3:13, [Lam2:3-4 paralleling the wording in 2Th2:7b-8a...], etc).
We see the "24 elders" saying (in 5:9) "...and hast redeemed US to God... out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation..." and this is AFTER a "searching judgment" has taken place as indicated by the "WAS FOUND" word in 5:4 (as is also used in Paul's arrest/trials being brought before their [human / earthly] BEMA... in the latter parts of Acts; IOW, I believe the "BEMA of Christ" (which is slated only for "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") has taken place by this point (in Rev5)... and they are wearing "golden crowns/stephanous" [recall Paul's words about "IN THAT DAY" in 2Tim4:8! ] and are sitting on "thrones"... etc etc...
--v.20:4a = still-living saints (who come to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN the [7] trib years) who survive the trib yrs... this is what Daniel 7:22[27] is speaking of ("22 and judgment was given to the saints of the most High"--see again the wording in Rev20:4a); these enter the MK age in their mortal bodies;
[separated by the phrase "AND I saw..."]
--v.20:4b = those saints (also who come to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN the [7] trib yrs) who DIE [/are martyred] in the trib years, and are "resurrected" [means: "to stand again [on the earth]"] also at that same time-slot; these enter the MK age in "resurrected" bodies (which are said to be "like the angels"... who do not marry nor bear children... [i.e. Scripture says "in the resurrection they..." Matt22:30])
NEITHER of these ^ (two parts/groups, in this verse) are speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (who will have been "changed" and "caught up" WELL-BEFORE this point in time, way back PRIOR TO the FIRST SEAL being opened, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Rev5:6, Isa3:13, [Lam2:3-4 paralleling the wording in 2Th2:7b-8a...], etc).
We see the "24 elders" saying (in 5:9) "...and hast redeemed US to God... out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation..." and this is AFTER a "searching judgment" has taken place as indicated by the "WAS FOUND" word in 5:4 (as is also used in Paul's arrest/trials being brought before their [human / earthly] BEMA... in the latter parts of Acts; IOW, I believe the "BEMA of Christ" (which is slated only for "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") has taken place by this point (in Rev5)... and they are wearing "golden crowns/stephanous" [recall Paul's words about "IN THAT DAY" in 2Tim4:8!
] and are sitting on "thrones"... etc etc...
""The "first resurrection" (of those that died in Christ for their testimony of believing in Christ) happens after the great tribulation, at the return of Christ Yeshua, with the rapture.""
As I have demonstrated,that is pure conjecture.
Reconcile rev 14 with 1 thes 4 "dead precede the living"
Your theory places the dead AFTER the living.
Game
Set
Match
As I have demonstrated,that is pure conjecture.
Reconcile rev 14 with 1 thes 4 "dead precede the living"
Your theory places the dead AFTER the living.
Game
Set
Match
1. Antichrist is not only one and has been come since apostle John time
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”
2. I agree Pre trib is false teaching.
3. Some people make study where this teaching come from, and discover It is from jesuit priest.
4. I believe popes are antichrist. (Antichrist not only one)
5. Pretrib teaching Will make us believe pope are not antichrist, since antichrist come after rapture,
6. Don't focus oN the last antichrist, he Will persecute Christian oN the large scale, now he start he prepare for It
https://www.tomorrowsworld.org/news-and-prophecy/pope-calls-for-one-world-government
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”
2. I agree Pre trib is false teaching.
3. Some people make study where this teaching come from, and discover It is from jesuit priest.
4. I believe popes are antichrist. (Antichrist not only one)
5. Pretrib teaching Will make us believe pope are not antichrist, since antichrist come after rapture,
6. Don't focus oN the last antichrist, he Will persecute Christian oN the large scale, now he start he prepare for It
https://www.tomorrowsworld.org/news-and-prophecy/pope-calls-for-one-world-government