Is the end near?

[cv5]

That amillennial apostate Bruce Gore said the exact same thing to me when he attempted to denounce my position. That poor man in all of his brilliance was truly clueless. And I have to tell you that man was scholarly, erudite, refined, prestigious, credentialed....The works. He knew his Greek he knew his Hebrew. A life time trial lawyer. Smart guy.

Despite all of this the guy actually believed in a 215 year Egyptian sojourn. Seriously. The same ridiculous mistake that the rabbis made. My attempts to show him that the Bible clearly indicates a 430 years sojourn was dismissed with no legitimate reason.

His complete failure at understanding end time eschatology is ruinous. Hopelessly unintelligible.

Such is the fate of the amillennialist. Willfully denying Israel their prophesied redemption leads to Spiritual blindness I've seen it 1000 times.

 

[Truth7t7]

Why do you think there is a time difference mentioned between those who are dead rising first than those who are alive? Is it because there are a few minutes or less in difference? Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up to be together with those who will have earlier been caught up to Christ. Do we remain for a few seconds, minutes or hours after the martyrs are caught up first?

In the twinkling of an eye, (Blink)

1 Corinthians 15:52KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[luigi]

Are you equating "the man child" / "the male [G730 - arsena/arren]" [singular] with "the remnant/rest [plural] of her seed" (as the same entity/person/persons)??


[I see "the remnant/rest [PLURAL]" to correlate with Micah 5:3 (distinct from v.2 which refers to Jesus' birth [I do not say Rev12 refers to it])... May the readers note the word "UNTIL" in v.3 of Micah 5... I do not equate these PLURALS with "the man child / the male [SINGULAR]" who had been "caught up" before this point/before when v.17 (of Rev12) unfolds upon the earth]

In Revelation 4:1 John is called up to be shown things which must come hereafter. As such Revelation 12 written circa 95 AD is not describing a recent historical event of Jesus' birth. The travailing woman are today's double minded Christians, who represent nearly all Christians today, who will either fall away during the great tribulation when the Lord shakes the earth as well as heaven (Hebrews 12:26-27), or will not be shaken out, and will instead at some point during the great tribulation become singularly minded on the Spirit.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

 

[cv5]

Why do you think there is a time difference mentioned between those who are dead rising first than those who are alive? Is it because there are a few minutes or less in difference? Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up to be together with those who will have earlier been caught up to Christ. Do we remain for a few seconds, minutes or hours after the martyrs are caught up first?

Contemporaneous and instantaneous. In the twinkling of an eye. Zero lag time. 10 to the -43 seconds aka a Planck unit of time.

 

[luigi]

In the twinkling of an eye, (Blink)

1 Corinthians 15:52KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We shall be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. As such why would there be need to inform us that the martyrs would precede the living if it were just a moment or a twinkling of an eye for the remaining living saints to follow the martyrs?

 

[Truth7t7]

In Revelation 4:1 John is called up to be shown things which must come hereafter. As such Revelation 12 written circa 95 AD is not describing a recent historical event of Jesus' birth. The travailing woman are today's double minded Christians, who represent nearly all Christians today, who will either fall away during the great tribulation when the Lord shakes the earth as well as heaven (Hebrews 12:26-27), or will not be shaken out, and will instead at some point during the great tribulation become singularly minded on the Spirit.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Luigi, I believe (DivineWaterMark) is a (Full Preterist) that denies a future bodily resurrection of the believer and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens?

Divinewatermark, correct me if I'm wrong, it's what I believe you have established in previous discussions?

 

[Dino246]

I agree we are at the time of the end, the next event I believe will be Daniel's 70 literal weeks to start

When the command goes out to build the wall and street in Jerusalem,the 70 weeks start,7 weeks of planning, 62 weeks of building, the 70th week the Antichrist is revealed,the 3.5 year tribulation starts.

You're only about 2460 years late.

 

[luigi]

As I have shown, I believe in a future 3.5 year tribulation, that starts at the revealing of the Antichrist, and the abomination takes place.

I believe the two Witnesses will stand before the beast/antichrist for the entire time of the 3.5 years, bringing all plagues as Often as they will, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

As seen in Rev 11, when these two Witnesses finish their testimony and are killed the final hours of earth's existence unfolds as they rise to heaven after 3.5 days dead, eaethquake, fear, as the second coming takes place in final fire in judgemnt, the earth is dissolved,the new heaven, earth, jerusalem are revealed for eternity in the twinkling of an eye.

There will be no future Millennium on this earth,its gone

I also believe in a future 3.5 year tribulation that will occur for the faithful during the Antichrists/false prophets reign along with the beast. I also, however, believe there will be tribulation on the earth prior to the 3.5 year beast and antichrist's reign, as scripture tells us it will come upon the whole world (Luke 21:35). These tribulations are the wars, famines, earthquakes, pestilences, along with fearful sights and great signs in the heavens described in the Olivet discourse (Luke 21:9-10 & 25-26).

Luke 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Luke 21:9 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 10 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

 

[TMS]

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The time it takes is not important. But God has a reason for all that He does. I believe God, because God said it.
He said it above so that is the way it will happen.

 

[Dino246]

That amillennial apostate Bruce Gore said the exact same thing to me when he attempted to denounce my position. That poor man in all of his brilliance was truly clueless. And I have to tell you that man was scholarly, erudite, refined, prestigious, credentialed....The works. He knew his Greek he knew his Hebrew. A life time trial lawyer. Smart guy.

Despite all of this the guy actually believed in a 215 year Egyptian sojourn. Seriously. The same ridiculous mistake that the rabbis made. My attempts to show him that the Bible clearly indicates a 430 years sojourn was dismissed with no legitimate reason.

His complete failure at understanding end time eschatology is ruinous. Hopelessly unintelligible.

Such is the fate of the amillennialist. Willfully denying Israel their prophesied redemption leads to Spiritual blindness I've seen it 1000 times.

On what ground do you call him an apostate? I wasn't aware that he had denounced Christ.

 

[Dino246]

Here I do see things different than you. The first 69 weeks lead up to the Lord and his crucifixion, which is then separated by two millennia from the last week in which the abomination of desolation appears and forms a covenant with many for this final 70th week. As the first 69 weeks include the return of the Jews from Babylon to the rebuilding of Jerusalem's streets, up until the Lord is crucified which took place over 483 years, each day of the 69 weeks is then recognized as a year and not as literal days. Likewise the last week in which the abomination of desolation forms a covenant with many for a week is seven years, and not a literal seven day period.

From where in Scripture do you get the idea that the 70th week is separated from the 69 weeks?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In Revelation 4:1 John is called up to be shown things which must come hereafter.

Agreed.

As such Revelation 12 written circa 95 AD is not describing a recent historical event of Jesus' birth.

If you'll notice what I had put: "Micah 5:3 (distinct from v.2 which refers to Jesus' birth [I do not say Rev12 refers to it])..."

The travailing woman are today's double minded Christians, who represent nearly all Christians today, who will either fall away during the great tribulation when the Lord shakes the earth as well as heaven (Hebrews 12:26-27), or will not be shaken out, and will instead at some point during the great tribulation become singularly minded on the Spirit.

I disagree that "the woman" of Rev12 refers to "the Church which is His body" (any and all believers of "this present age"--all who are saved in this present age"... see Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])... The "woman" who "FLEES" seems to be equated with "them which be in Judaea" at the mid-point of the trib, per Matt24:16,15-21 [which kicks off "the GREAT tribulation," i.e. the second HALF of it).

But I agree that "the man child / the male [arsena/arren]" is not referring to Jesus' birth.

However, v.13 DOES say, "[the woman] which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730 - arsena/arren]"... meaning, that she "HAD BROUGHT FORTH" PRIOR TO this mid-trib point in the chronology.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

A verse I'm often pointing out, myself. (4:1)
It correlates with Rev1:19c and 1:1 where 1:1 says "things which must come to pass [<--comp. 1:19c and 4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (<--hold that thought)... so that everything after 4:1 (thru chpt 19, His RETURN to the earth) refers to the 7-yr tribulation period events.

But I would also point out how the "24 elders" (in 5:9) say, "hast redeemed US to God... out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"... and they are shown sitting on "thrones" with "crowns/stephanous of gold" and are wearing the very thing that was mentioned in 3:5 (in the "NOW" section [chpts 2-3], if you will, right??)... "himatia leukos-leukois [garments - white]"... now why is that?

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Right. And 1Cor6:3[14] says "know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE ANGELS" (addressed to "the Church which is His body, as is the following verse-->) Rom16:20 "And the God of peace shall bruise/crush Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*" (the same "TIME PERIOD" that 4:1-Rev19 speaks of, see... not to mention also Lk18:8a as well "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... not happening in the "NOW" but in the trib years [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"])

 

[cv5]

On what ground do you call him an apostate? I wasn't aware that he had denounced Christ.

When you wander off that far off from biblical prophecy and doctrine trust me you're an apostate.
I consider amillennialism (no future for ethnic Israel) apostasy and replacement theology too.

 

[cv5]

Luigi, I believe (DivineWaterMark) is a (Full Preterist) that denies a future bodily resurrection of the believer and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens?

Divinewatermark, correct me if I'm wrong, it's what I believe you have established in previous discussions?

Impossible. He believes in a pre-trib rapture. Yet future. As a precursory condition to the great tribulation.

 

[cv5]

Agreed.


If you'll notice what I had put: "Micah 5:3 (distinct from v.2 which refers to Jesus' birth [I do not say Rev12 refers to it])..."



I disagree that "the woman" of Rev12 refers to "the Church which is His body" (any and all believers of "this present age"--all who are saved in this present age"... see Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])... The "woman" who "FLEES" seems to be equated with "them which be in Judaea" at the mid-point of the trib, per Matt24:16,15-21 [which kicks off "the GREAT tribulation," i.e. the second HALF of it).

But I agree that "the man child / the male [arsena/arren]" is not referring to Jesus' birth.

However, v.13 DOES say, "[the woman] which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730 - arsena/arren]"... meaning, that she "HAD BROUGHT FORTH" PRIOR TO this mid-trib point in the chronology.


A verse I'm often pointing out, myself. (4:1)
It correlates with Rev1:19c and 1:1 where 1:1 says "things which must come to pass [<--comp. 1:19c and 4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (<--hold that thought)... so that everything after 4:1 (thru chpt 19, His RETURN to the earth) refers to the 7-yr tribulation period events.

But I would also point out how the "24 elders" (in 5:9) say, "hast redeemed US to God... out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"... and they are shown sitting on "thrones" with "crowns/stephanous of gold" and are wearing the very thing that was mentioned in 3:5 (in the "NOW" section [chpts 2-3], if you will, right??)... "himatia leukos-leukois [garments - white]"... now why is that?



Right. And 1Cor6:3[14] says "know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE ANGELS" (addressed to "the Church which is His body, as is the following verse-->) Rom16:20 "And the God of peace shall bruise/crush Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*" (the same "TIME PERIOD" that 4:1-Rev19 speaks of, see... not to mention also Lk18:8a as well "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... not happening in the "NOW" but in the trib years [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"])

Crystal clear. How that could fail to convince anybody is beyond me.

 

[luigi]

Contemporaneous and instantaneous. In the twinkling of an eye. Zero lag time. 10 to the -43 seconds aka a Planck unit of time.

If it were in just the twinkling of an eye, the difference in time from which the martyrs are raised and caught up to when those who remain alive are caught up, there would then be no need to emphasize this planck unit of time that no one would even be aware of having occurred. We who remain, remain not caught up for some time after the martyrs are caught up, otherwise there would have been no need to have mentioned an insignificant short period of time.

 

[Truth7t7]

When you wander off that far off from biblical prophecy and doctrine trust me you're an apostate.
I consider amillennialism (no future for ethnic Israel) apostasy and replacement theology too.

God tells you right before your eyes, you claim Jews are Gods chosen, he claims otherwise.

Israel Of The Flesh, Ethnic Jews: (They Which Are The Children Of The Flesh, These Are Not The Children Of God)

Roman's 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Luigi, I believe (DivineWaterMark) is a (Full Preterist) that denies a future bodily resurrection of the believer and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens?

Divinewatermark, correct me if I'm wrong, it's what I believe you have established in previous discussions?

No.

Sorry I overlooked this post of yours somehow.

I believe you have mixed me up completely with another poster (I do not know who you are thinking of)... but NONE of my recent posts in these two threads are anything close to "Preterism" (nor any of my posts EVER )... you must either be severely mis-reading [mis-skimming, more likely ] MY posts, or have been confusing me with a DIFFERENT poster.

To be clear, I am not "Preterist" = )

 

[Truth7t7]

Impossible. He believes in a pre-trib rapture. Yet future. As a precursory condition to the great tribulation.

If that is true, he/she will correct my error?

 

[Truth7t7]

No.

Sorry I overlooked this post of yours somehow.

I believe you have mixed me up completely with another poster (I do not know who you are thinking of)... but NONE of my recent posts in these two threads are anything close to "Preterism" (nor any of my posts EVER )... you must either be mis-reading [mis-skimming, more likely ] MY posts, or have been confusing me with a DIFFERENT poster.

To be clear, I am not "Preterist" = )

I apologize, must have been soulweaver, once again I apoligize,thanks for the correction, hopefully I will remember this for at least a week? Smiles