Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?

notuptome · Oct 12, 2019

To adhere to limited atonement is to limit the efficacy of Christs blood on Calvary. Just because men reject the mercy of God and die in their sins does not indicate that Christ only made atonement for the saved folks of the world. God provided the proper atonement for Cain and Cain rejected it right in the face of God. Cain's foolishness did not diminish the mercy of God or the desire of God for Cain to make atonement for his sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Whispered · Oct 12, 2019

notuptome said:

Well said.

Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."

1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."

ForestGreenCook · Oct 12, 2019

notuptome said:

God inspired the words of the scriptures to be a mystery to some, but John 6:38 is worded in such a manner of simplicity that it is hard for me to understand why you can not understand that Jesus did not die for all mankind, but only those that his Father gave him, and besides that he said that he would raise them all up at the last day.

UnitedWithChrist · Oct 12, 2019

notuptome said:

Here's the point:

Christ's atonement actually saved people. It didn't potentially save people.

Therefore universal atonement, taught by free-willers is false.

Otherwise the claim is that Christ didn't actually save anyone but he made their salvation possible.

Those who deny eternal security compound their error even further, because they don't believe that the salvation of those who place their faith in Christ is guaranteed.

At least the ones who believe in eternal security realize that those who place their faith in Christ are secure...I'll give them that much.

UnitedWithChrist · Oct 12, 2019

Here's a good sermon by Brian Borgman on limited atonement.

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1025071352598

It is called Grace Secured: Limited Atonement and is on SermonAudio in case the link doesn't work.

UnitedWithChrist · Oct 12, 2019

By the way, I wouldn't even attend a church that denied eternal security..I can be a member of a church that doesn't agree with limited atonement, but those who deny eternal security are plainly works-righteousness folks.

Whispered · Oct 12, 2019

ForestGreenCook said:

What your theology lacks is context and harmony with the mission of Jesus as prescribed in John 3:16

As for John 6:38 the context of that passage is fleshed out in verse 40. For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and [j]I will raise him up at the last day. "

God draws us to Christ.And how is this accomplished? We're told this in verse 45. It is written in the prophets, [k]And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.
The Good News Jesus brought before He died on the cross was fulfilled and proven truth when He raised from death and left the tomb and continued His ministry for 40 days. He, that man who was seen to die on the cross in the flesh, raised again and proved eternal life is life beyond that human casing, and is eternal immortality in the spirit.

John 12:32; “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

Those who are blessed by Jesus in the sermon on the mount are not first identified as those totally depraved, relieved of that condition by forced grace and faith. If God has to apply grace and faith into those He first created Totally Depraved and all this after he preselected those He would save from the condition He would later create them to suffer, why would Jesus bless those one's described in the Beatitudes.

THE EIGHT BEATITUDES OF JESUS

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Gospel of St. Matthew 5:3-10

UnitedWithChrist · Oct 12, 2019

Whispered said:

I'm not sure what you are talking about, as the Sermon on the Mount relates to those who are believers.

By the way, John 3:16 says that the "believing ones" shall not perish. Reformed people don't deny that. The issue is what causes believe. What causes believe is the new heart that God gives to the elect.

Decisional regeneration, taught by free-willers, claims that you need to believe and repent to receive this new heart. Yet, this new heart is the only heart that responds in faith and repentance. A stony heart, which is what unbelievers have, will not respond to the gospel.

Therefore, regeneration, or the giving of the heart of flesh, precedes the faith and repentance response.

This is where decisional regeneration has it wrong, and this is the typical view held by free-willers.

Whispered · Oct 12, 2019

The error, or flaw, in the Limited Atonement formula is the T that precedes it in the TULIP doctrine. Total Depravity of the human creature. All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved.

This necessarily means that all that comes after is God's work within the human creature of his creation as described above. Not of their own choice because they are incapable of following Jesus. Rather, that God died on the cross only for those he predetermined as those one's he would change into being in his grace and then imbue them with faith, because their first and eternal flaw sans God's intervention was to live and die Totally Depraved.
This means that the death on the cross was not to save those Elect of God. Because God had already chosen those whom He would save before anything was created by Him at all. And those Elect only have faith because God installs it into them. But since Jesus was God, their faith is in God. Making Jesus sacrifice on the cross as described in scripture unnecessary.Because He didn't die to save the whole world from its sin according to the application of TULIP. He died and then God, who was Jesus, made chosen people to have faith after He made them to come into His grace by His will, not their choice.

The scriptures say Jesus took the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross. But yet, TULIP tells us that death was unnecessary. Because God had already predetermined whom He would save from their Totally Depraved, sinner, state.
That is why TULIP and Limited Atonement is unbiblical and literally anti-Christ.

John 3:16 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [ Per TULIP God didn't have to do this when everything prescribed by TULIP is GOD creating His elected creation to be saved by imputed grace and faith)

Leviticus 17:11 11For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

Jesus didn't have to shed His blood when He was the same God that would work His will in His created chosen one's among the Totally Depraved, so that they would become as He willed when He installed into them first His grace and then the ability to have faith in Him. He didn't have to die to do that. He could have simply worked His elect like a potter does the clay so as to create a jar to his liking and specifications.
Meanwhile, realize, the TULIP doctrine necessarily affirms that God also pre-destined people to die as the Totally Depraved because those one's He did not Elect to save from Himself.
The Elect aren't really saved at all. They were simply reconfigured by God to love God because God made them incapable of that in the beginning.

UnitedWithChrist · Oct 12, 2019

Whispered said:

The error, or flaw, in the Limited Atonement formula is the T that precedes it in the TULIP doctrine. Total Depravity of the human creature. All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved.

This necessarily means that all that comes after is God's work within the human creature of his creation as described above. Not of their own choice because they are incapable of following Jesus. Rather, that God died on the cross only for those he predetermined as those one's he would change into being in his grace and then imbue them with faith, because their first and eternal flaw sans God's intervention was to live and die Totally Depraved.
This means that the death on the cross was not to save those Elect of God. Because God had already chosen those whom He would save before anything was created by Him at all. And those Elect only have faith because God installs it into them. But since Jesus was God, their faith is in God. Making Jesus sacrifice on the cross as described in scripture unnecessary.Because He didn't die to save the whole world from its sin according to the application of TULIP. He died and then God, who was Jesus, made chosen people to have faith after He made them to come into His grace by His will, not their choice.

The scriptures say Jesus took the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross. But yet, TULIP tells us that death was unnecessary. Because God had already predetermined whom He would save from their Totally Depraved, sinner, state.
That is why TULIP and Limited Atonement is unbiblical and literally anti-Christ.

John 3:16 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [ Per TULIP God didn't have to do this when everything prescribed by TULIP is GOD creating His elected creation to be saved by imputed grace and faith)

Leviticus 17:11 11For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

Jesus didn't have to shed His blood when He was the same God that would work His will in His created chosen one's among the Totally Depraved, so that they would become as He willed when He installed into them first His grace and then the ability to have faith in Him. He didn't have to die to do that. He could have simply worked His elect like a potter does the clay so as to create a jar to his liking and specifications.
Meanwhile, realize, the TULIP doctrine necessarily affirms that God also pre-destined people to die as the Totally Depraved because those one's He did not Elect to save from Himself.
The Elect aren't really saved at all. They were simply reconfigured by God to love God because God made them incapable of that in the beginning.

TULIP doesn't teach that. The BIBLE teaches this.

Read Ephesians 2, Romans 5, and Romans 9.

The teachings are PLAIN.

Man is spiritually dead, due to Adam's sin, and need to be regenerated, or to be "made alive again". Read Ephesians 2, Romans 5.

Some are vessels of honor, to be redeemed, and others are not. Read Romans 9.

At the same time, I recommend that all read the entire book of Romans. It cannot be read with a free-willer perspective. If you can't make sense of it through reading it yourself, read it with Tim Keller's set, Romans 1-7 for You, and Romans 8-16 for You.

Or any decent study bible such as ESV Study Bible or ESV Biblical Theology Study Bible.

Don't take the words of these forum goofs as authoritative.

TULIP is accurate, but I suggest not relying on forum fairy tales for your theology.

Whispered · Oct 12, 2019

UnitedWithChrist said:

No, you are wrong. Those who attended Jesus sermon were his Disciples and throngs of people from all Judea, Jerusalem and the coastal region of Tyre and Sidon.

No, reformed people are told they are first Totally Depraved, unable to believe of their own totally depraved nature. GOD, installs faith into them after He installs His grace. Those Reformed people did not choose, because their Total Depravity made them incapable of doing anything right-eous. God did it to them.

That's true. This is because people are able to make a decision , as God intended, as to whether they wish to follow the teachings of Jesus or not. Totally Depraved people are incapable of choice. God changes them Himself so that they are able to have faith in Him.

No, Totally Depraved persons are not regenerated. They're re-formed by God so as to be able to have faith in God once He re-formed them to be in His grace first.
Whereas free people who hear the Good News or read it are able to respond to the message or not because God's message either resonates as truth or it does not. Faith, precedes repentance, and repentance precedes rebirth in the spirit of Christ. Repentance and faith in Christ are actually inseparable. Repentance is a personal inventory of one's own wrongs as are able to be understood through hearing the message of Salvation. And all this arrives because the one making a strong honest look at themselves and their life has faith in the word of God that describes who they are as that sinner needing repentance, and who they are in the eyes of God as one worth dying for as the redeemed in Christ.

This is where humanity is realized as made in the image and likeness of God. As opposed to the Totally Depraved robots made in the image and likeness of the strong delusion Calvin held of his creator.

Whispered · Oct 12, 2019

UnitedWithChrist said:

I don't. That is why I deny TULIP , Calvinism, Re-Formed Theology, as God sent.
I will take note that you do manage to fulfill the image and likeness described in the thread, 3 tactics Calvinists use against non-Calvinists. Name calling, being one. That is not evidence of one who is regenerate in the image and likeness of Christ so as to be then, Christlike.

Ephesians 2 doesn't mean we are dead as the Calvinists believe, meaning, Totally Depraved.
All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.
Our sin separates us from God and makes us under the illusion of the world's temptations and appetites. It doesn't mean we are like zombies, Totally Depraved as pertains to what Calvinism teaches is the meaning of "dead in our sin" Being spiritually separated from God does not mean we are incapable of doing good, contrary to what Total Depravity imparts as the Totally Depraved are incapable of anything good. They are totally immoral.

That is not actually true. There are many an atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Taoist, and others who have done good and do good in this world. Those who Re-Formed theology identifies as Totally Depraved.
If they were totally depraved, as all the world's people are said to be according to the Re-Formed Doctrine, their good works and positive behaviors would not be possible.

The Saint Apostle Paul's letter to the Ephesians and chapter 2 should be read in full so as to impart the truth of his teaching. Dead in our sins means we are separated from God due to the illusion the world lays upon us as to the importance of the flesh. However, you should have gone further in citing Paul's letter to the Ephesians where he speaks of life in Christ. And note, it is not by the manipulation known as Irresistible Grace.

Ephesians
Theme
Paul summarizes his gospel of salvation by grace through faith alone and describes the nature and role of the church in God's eternal plan.
Overview
This book answers the question men and women have asked throughout all time: Why am I here? The answer has to do with eternity, making peace with God and understanding the believer’s new identity in Christ. The NIV Quest Study Bible says Paul wrote this letter to believers in Ephesus (a city in modern-day Turkey) to encourage them to think of themselves in a whole new way. He wanted them to think of themselves not as people who had once been involved in idol worship, illicit sex, and foolish philosophies, but as people in Christ—people with a radically new identity. The book offers practical ways to live in unity with God and others.

The Book of Ephesians chapter 2
1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the [b]powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the [c]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together [d]with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands; 12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition, 15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; 16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 and he came and [e]preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh: 18 for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father. 19 So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, 20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in whom [f]each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy [g]temple in the Lord; 22 in whom ye also are builded together [h]for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

How Calvinists Understand “Dead in Sin” (Ephesians 2:1)

UnitedWithChrist · Oct 12, 2019

I would suggest this entire series for a good exposure to Reformed theology.

https://www.sermonaudio.com/search....th&keyworddesc=Introduction+to+Reformed+Faith

It is a set of series called "Introduction to Reformed Faith" by Brian Borgman.

As I have said, this theology is really misrepresented on this site. If you want something authoritative, listen to it.

Personally, I consider free-willer theology to be garbage.

Whispered · Oct 12, 2019

I will say that it is not my intention to add to this thread that it become dozens of back and forth remarks concerning the ethicacy of Calvinism or not. Anyone here is able to discern for themselves if Calvinism, Re-Formed Theology is of God. And this by simply reviewing what Re-Formed Theology describes as its ideal of God. And then reading the Bible and articles by learned individuals that furthers understanding of God's holy word.
Made in the image and likeness of God. That is us.

We are not totally depraved wholly immoral beings. If we were, imagine what a world we would have then. It is not this world we have now. It would be far far worse. And it would be all God's doing all the time, if you accept the Reformers vision of what their God is.

Flaws In Calvinism

God Hardens Whom He Wills?

Only True Christianity is Defensible

"....Mortimer J. Adler once stated, “Christianity is the only logical, consistent faith in the world” (as quoted in Sharp and Bergman, 2008, p. 288). Unfortunately, the truth of his statement is often obscured by the copious, false philosophies and inaccurate biblical interpretations that masquerade as Christianity. Calvinism, theistic evolution, inherited sin, misdefined faith, and a belief in modern-day miraculous healings are just a few of the obstacles standing in the way of a proper understanding of New Testament Christianity. To this list could be added hundreds of similar ideas fraught with error such as the unscriptural concepts of purgatory, limbo, modern-day Divine inspiration, the perseverance of the saints, and a plethora of ridiculous “predictions” supposedly rooted in the biblical text of Revelation. Those who genuinely wish to defend the validity of New Testament Christianity must be willing and able to assess the writings of modern skeptics, separating the wheat from the chaff. By acknowledging the mistakes that are inherent in false concepts of “Christianity,” the honest-hearted truth seeker can be led to see that such foibles and errors do not mar authentic, defensible Christianity."

Nehemiah6 · Oct 12, 2019

UnitedWithChrist said:

Again you try to gain points by insulting those who reject your nonsense. Christ's atonement saves only those who obey the Gospel. So unless you yourself obeyed the Gospel, you were not magically saved. Do you even understand the meaning of obedience to the Gospel?

Whispered · Oct 12, 2019

UnitedWithChrist said:

You deny people have free will.
Free Will:

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
antonyms
under duress

I am not a Jehovah Witness, however, a Godly Biblicaly sound article is worth sharing.
What Does the Bible Say About Free Will? Is God in Control?

Let's consider under duress, as opposed to having free will. Then let us consider the argument that all people are Totally Depraved. All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.

Then let us recall the words of God that tell us, we are created in the image and likeness of God our Father after we say aloud, we are created Totally Depraved.
We are created Totally Depraved in the image and likeness of God our Father.

What I find that most revokes your protestations against all who point to the scriptures when rightly defined and in context as that which refutes Calvinism is your own signature.
Recommended reading for seekers:
Favor: Finding Life at the Center of God's Affection, Greg Gilbert
The Cross of Christ, John Stott
Union with Christ, Rankin Wilbourne
The Freedom and Power of Forgiveness, John MacArthur
God Dwells Among Us, GK Beale

Our union with Christ is a living union, so that we might bear fruit; a loving union so that we may enjoy him; and a lasting union, so that we need not be afraid.
Warren Wiersbe

Email me at rob@unitedwithchrist.net if you want to talk about Christianity.

Because TULIP, revokes the possibility of seekers to exist. Therefore it is impossible for any person to seek. Because the T, Totally Depraved condition of the person created as such by God then makes such people unable to seek God.

Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.
Unconditional Election = God chose from eternity to save certain people, not based upon any foreseen virtue, faith, or anticipated acceptance of the Gospel. God chose to extend mercy to those He has specifically chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive wrath and damnation.
Limited Atonement = Christ died only for those whom God specifically pre-decided to save—the elect—but not for any others.
Irresistible Grace = God’s saving grace is applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect), overcoming their resistance to the call of the Gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved (even against his will if necessary). This purposeful influence of God’s Holy Spirit, Who creates faith within the individual, cannot be resisted.
Perseverance of the Saints = Since God is sovereign and His will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with Himself will continue in faith until the end. They cannot be eternally lost.

UnitedWithChrist · Nov 7, 2019

Here's two good sermons on limited atonement by John MacArthur.

In essence, the universal atonement of free-willers is not an atonement at all.

Their version of the atonement only makes forgiveness possible; it does not atone for the sins of anyone, and does not accomplish their salvation:

https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/90-277/

https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/90-278/

UnitedWithChrist · Nov 7, 2019

Whispered said:

You deny people have free will.
Free Will:

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
antonyms
under duress

I am not a Jehovah Witness, however, a Godly Biblicaly sound article is worth sharing.
What Does the Bible Say About Free Will? Is God in Control?

Let's consider under duress, as opposed to having free will. Then let us consider the argument that all people are Totally Depraved. All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.

Then let us recall the words of God that tell us, we are created in the image and likeness of God our Father after we say aloud, we are created Totally Depraved.
We are created Totally Depraved in the image and likeness of God our Father.

What I find that most revokes your protestations against all who point to the scriptures when rightly defined and in context as that which refutes Calvinism is your own signature.
Recommended reading for seekers:
Favor: Finding Life at the Center of God's Affection, Greg Gilbert
The Cross of Christ, John Stott
Union with Christ, Rankin Wilbourne
The Freedom and Power of Forgiveness, John MacArthur
God Dwells Among Us, GK Beale

Our union with Christ is a living union, so that we might bear fruit; a loving union so that we may enjoy him; and a lasting union, so that we need not be afraid.
Warren Wiersbe

Email me at rob@unitedwithchrist.net if you want to talk about Christianity.

Because TULIP, revokes the possibility of seekers to exist. Therefore it is impossible for any person to seek. Because the T, Totally Depraved condition of the person created as such by God then makes such people unable to seek God.

Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.
Unconditional Election = God chose from eternity to save certain people, not based upon any foreseen virtue, faith, or anticipated acceptance of the Gospel. God chose to extend mercy to those He has specifically chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive wrath and damnation.
Limited Atonement = Christ died only for those whom God specifically pre-decided to save—the elect—but not for any others.
Irresistible Grace = God’s saving grace is applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect), overcoming their resistance to the call of the Gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved (even against his will if necessary). This purposeful influence of God’s Holy Spirit, Who creates faith within the individual, cannot be resisted.
Perseverance of the Saints = Since God is sovereign and His will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with Himself will continue in faith until the end. They cannot be eternally lost.

Man has "creaturely free will", constrained by his nature. If he is unregenerated, his actions are in subjection to his fallen nature. If he is regenerated, his actions are in subjection to his new nature.

He does not have autonomous or libertarian free will, free from all external influences, like free-willers claim.

Scripture clearly teaches that the unsaved man is a slave to sin, and spiritually dead in fact. Read Romans 6 and Ephesians 2.

Man CANNOT be free unless his life is controlled by God, and to claim this is biblical ignorance. Read Romans 1 as well. Ask yourself if those individuals described, which are the same as all fallen men, are in autonomous control...or are they slaves to their wickedness?

If you claim you were better than them, that shows the depth of your self-deception. Read Jeremiah 17:9. Do you know what self-deception means? It means that you are fooling yourself.

These are like the ABCs of true conversion. I am not even sure why any believer would question them.

UnitedWithChrist · Nov 7, 2019

CHARLES SPURGEON ON DEFINITE (LIMITED) ATONEMENT

"We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ, because we say that Christ has not made a satisfaction for all men, or all men would be saved. Now, our reply to this is, that, on the other hand, our opponents limit it: we do not. The Arminians say, Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, “No, certainly not.” We ask them the next question—Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer “No.” They are obliged to admit this, if they are consistent. They say “No; Christ has died that any man may be saved if”— and then follow certain conditions of salvation. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, you. You say that Christ did not die so as to infallibly secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ’s death; we say, “No, my dear sir, it is you that do it.” We say Christ so died that He infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ’s death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it. "

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/charles-spurgeon-calvinism-definite-atonement/

7seasrekeyed · Nov 7, 2019

ah yes...you are quite the fan of Mr Spurgeon

I do remember you started another op with this lovely sentiment from said Mr Spurgeon

"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."
That is a prayer for the devil, for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that.

sorry, but Mr Spurgeon, although no longer on this earthly sphere, calls his own limited edition prayer a prayer for the devil

I guess he should know since the devil helped him write it

and people wonder where Calvinists get their attitudes from

Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?

Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?

Yes, Jesus died for a particular group of people and his atonement accomplishes their salvation.

No, Jesus died for all men, without exception, and his atonement only makes salvation possible.

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

7seasrekeyed

Guest