Is Obedience Necessary for Salvation?
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Again we are not talking about the self righteous, here. They are not saved. They didn't repented and submit their self-will to God. They are only following the rules of men. They are not walking in the Spirit and need to repent of self righteousness.
They are not disciples of God. They are disciples of themselves or the rules and tradition of men. They are not following God from the heart. Their mouth praises him but their heart is far from him.
What does any of this have to do with those who are truly saved and are walking in the Spirit? Nothing....We know that there are fruits of the Spirit and those walking in the Spirit will bear fruits. Just because there are some fakers out there not walking in the spirit doesn't deter from the truth, though.
They are not disciples of God. They are disciples of themselves or the rules and tradition of men. They are not following God from the heart. Their mouth praises him but their heart is far from him.
What does any of this have to do with those who are truly saved and are walking in the Spirit? Nothing....We know that there are fruits of the Spirit and those walking in the Spirit will bear fruits. Just because there are some fakers out there not walking in the spirit doesn't deter from the truth, though.
Let's take this step-by-step:
1. When God justifies a sinner, he/she is deemed as perfect and righteous as Christ Himself. That is in fact imputed righteousness (as given to Abraham). It is called the "robe" of righteousness which is also called "fine linen, clean and white". It is the "wedding garment" which is a necessity to enter Heaven and be at the Marriage of the Lamb. Those without this "robe" are excluded from Heaven.
2. One does not "maintain" salvation, since salvation is God's gift.
3. One "works out" his or her salvation by practical righteousness and holiness along with good works.
4. God does not remove the gift or the seal of the Holy Spirit. That is permanent.
5. The New Birth is irreversible. One cannot be "unborn".
6. Saints can and do sin, and must deal with their present sins (1 John 1).
7. Saints who fail to address their present sins can die prematurely. This is called "the sin unto death".
8. Therefore Paul exhorts Christians to examine themselves. This should be a daily self-examination.
9. Believers are to "walk in the Spirit" and to "mortify or "crucify" the flesh, which was already crucified on the cross of Christ.
10. The flesh (the old man or sin nature) cannot have dominion over the saint, because of the indwelling Holy Spirit. And "greater is He that is in us, than he that is in the world".
1. When God justifies a sinner, he/she is deemed as perfect and righteous as Christ Himself. That is in fact imputed righteousness (as given to Abraham). It is called the "robe" of righteousness which is also called "fine linen, clean and white". It is the "wedding garment" which is a necessity to enter Heaven and be at the Marriage of the Lamb. Those without this "robe" are excluded from Heaven.
2. One does not "maintain" salvation, since salvation is God's gift.
3. One "works out" his or her salvation by practical righteousness and holiness along with good works.
4. God does not remove the gift or the seal of the Holy Spirit. That is permanent.
5. The New Birth is irreversible. One cannot be "unborn".
6. Saints can and do sin, and must deal with their present sins (1 John 1).
7. Saints who fail to address their present sins can die prematurely. This is called "the sin unto death".
8. Therefore Paul exhorts Christians to examine themselves. This should be a daily self-examination.
9. Believers are to "walk in the Spirit" and to "mortify or "crucify" the flesh, which was already crucified on the cross of Christ.
10. The flesh (the old man or sin nature) cannot have dominion over the saint, because of the indwelling Holy Spirit. And "greater is He that is in us, than he that is in the world".
What is "walking in the Spirit". ?????
Its to exist in the "renewed mind".
Paul tells us.....>"renew your mind"......and that is because the "soul realm" ...mind, will, and emotions, is not born again.
Its our SPIRIT that is born again..........not our body or mind.
So God has given us "the gift of Righteousness"'' that creates the "in Christ', Sonship position.....which is our Spiritual Union with God and Christ.... as "Made righteous".
This is explained in 1 John 3:9, that says the born again don't sin......and that is speaking about the born again SPIRIT, that does not sin, because it exists as "One with God, in Christ".. already.
But your MIND..........ahhhh.
That's the problem.......and it has to be resolved by renewing it., and to do that, is to exist in REAL FAITH.
Real faith, is this........."to only and always perceive yourself to be exactly as God has birthed you to be".. as who you really are...
Notice this verse........."As Jesus IS so are the Born AGAIN, ... in this World".
Notice this verse.....>"seated in heavenly places in Christ'."""
Notice this verse....."in the world but not OF the world".
See those? Those are describing the born again NEW CREATION< in Christ...... as who we have BECOME.......
This is our born again Spirit.
To renew your mind, means to come to the place in your FAITH and in your BELIEF System, where you only recognize yourself as the born again Spirit, and you stop thinking of yourself as anything else.....such as a saved sinner.
Most believers do not do this....they do not renew their mind, and until you do, you are not walking in the Spirit.
So.........What is the effect on your discipleship, ... when you stop living in the natural mind and discipline your mind to only see yourself as the BORN AGAIN New Creation.....????
You will find this........>"Christ always gives me the Victory""........and that ends the sinning and confessing problem.
The sinning and confessing issue, is based on living in the wrong MIND , and its not a weak person problem, or carnal person issue......>Its a faith issue that traps you into the wrong mind that is the sinning and confessing issue, outcome.
Most believers are trying to stop sinning.
And that causes it.
Why? Because they are trying to keep commandments and law, based on the idea that this is discipleship.
So, when you strive to be good, you are resisting sinning as the qualification, and that puts you under the law, and "the law is the power of sin".
So, that is the wrong mind, and the law will beat you, and keep you under its dominion, sinning and confessing..
Thats what it does. This is why Paul says "the letter KILLETH"..........see that?
And He says of the 10 commandments...>>"the ministration of DEATH".
See that curse?
Thats a curse. The curse is......"that which i would do, i dont do, and that which i would not do... i do".
See that?
That is Paul trying to live a holy life, by resisting sin. That is Philippians 3
The result? Sinning and Confessing. Condemnation and Guilt.
This is why: "Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE of THE LAW"., by putting us here with His BLOOD....= "you are not under the law, you are UNDER GRACE"... = (born again Spirit).
So, the RIGHT MIND, which is to walk in the spirit, is to exist "under Grace", where you are then empowered as this......>"Christ always gives me the Victory""
See, if Christ always gives you the victory,......over the world, the flesh, and the devil, you are empowered to live Holy.
Until a believer comes to this RIGHT MIND< they exist here......"Apart from me, you can do nothing"....>Jesus said.
He's not talking about not being born again.
He's talking about trying to life the Holy Life by willpower and striving against sin, as when you do that, you are in the carnal mind, and that puts you under the law., which empowers your flesh., as..."the power of SIN>......is........the.....LAW".
Walking in the Spirit, is to exist "in Christ",...... resting in God's Grace, no longer trying to be good, and in that mind, you establish real faith, as you are no longer trying to do what only God can do through you.
See you are never actually Good.
THe only Good you possess is this....>"The gift of Righteousness".
Its funny that a person, a believer, thinks that they now are become good by doing the same STUFF you could do before you were saved, and this is "filthy rags".
See, your deeds are not changed......What is changes is your STATUS as a SON OF GOD.
THat is where the GOOD Is found......as to be that , you have been "made righteous" by GOD's Blood.
See, salvation is more than just forgiven sin. Its also the empowerment to live a perfected discipleship.
God says....."be ye Holy as I AM holy".........and most believers are trying to be holy According to how they think this is, and that is why they fail, as there is no power found in willpower, and there is no good found in your trying to be good.
GOOD is God, GOOD is His Righteousness......and when we begin to live in THAT understanding, then we leave the FLESH that is trying to imitate good, and will never be good.
See, doing a good deed, does not make you good......What make you good is God's Give of Righteouness.
The power to live Holy, is a GIFT, just like "the gift of salvation" is a Gift. Just like the 9 spiritual GIFTS are "gift".
Listen.
Everything that God expects from us, He supplies to us......or we could never become what HE expects.
Here is a KEY.
Perfected discipleship is not you being good..........its God being the power of your Good, living through you.
That is GOD Grace.
And to live there, is to have the renewed mind.
THis is why Paul says......>"when i am WEAK, ... i am Strong".......in other words, when i give up trying to be GOOD< and rest in God's Goodness, then i find the power of CHRIST, living IN ME, as my Goodness........= "Christ always GIVES ME the Victory".
See that MIND?
Get that mind reader, and you have found ....>"walking in the Spirit" and the cure for the sinning and confessing issue.
Reader.......... when a born again Christian....... is not resting in the Grace of God, = NOT being empowered to live the Holy life by Christ, then they exist as....>"Apart from me you can do NOTHING">.
And you see the nothing....as.........they have no power. They can't understand the word.....>Prayers are not answered.....They sin and confess, and can't stop.
Thy are APART from JESUS"s power, "Apart from me you can do NOTHING">.......yet they are born again.
Its to exist in the "renewed mind".
Paul tells us.....>"renew your mind"......and that is because the "soul realm" ...mind, will, and emotions, is not born again.
Its our SPIRIT that is born again..........not our body or mind.
So God has given us "the gift of Righteousness"'' that creates the "in Christ', Sonship position.....which is our Spiritual Union with God and Christ.... as "Made righteous".
This is explained in 1 John 3:9, that says the born again don't sin......and that is speaking about the born again SPIRIT, that does not sin, because it exists as "One with God, in Christ".. already.
But your MIND..........ahhhh.
That's the problem.......and it has to be resolved by renewing it., and to do that, is to exist in REAL FAITH.
Real faith, is this........."to only and always perceive yourself to be exactly as God has birthed you to be".. as who you really are...
Notice this verse........."As Jesus IS so are the Born AGAIN, ... in this World".
Notice this verse.....>"seated in heavenly places in Christ'."""
Notice this verse....."in the world but not OF the world".
See those? Those are describing the born again NEW CREATION< in Christ...... as who we have BECOME.......
This is our born again Spirit.
To renew your mind, means to come to the place in your FAITH and in your BELIEF System, where you only recognize yourself as the born again Spirit, and you stop thinking of yourself as anything else.....such as a saved sinner.
Most believers do not do this....they do not renew their mind, and until you do, you are not walking in the Spirit.
So.........What is the effect on your discipleship, ... when you stop living in the natural mind and discipline your mind to only see yourself as the BORN AGAIN New Creation.....????
You will find this........>"Christ always gives me the Victory""........and that ends the sinning and confessing problem.
The sinning and confessing issue, is based on living in the wrong MIND , and its not a weak person problem, or carnal person issue......>Its a faith issue that traps you into the wrong mind that is the sinning and confessing issue, outcome.
Most believers are trying to stop sinning.
And that causes it.
Why? Because they are trying to keep commandments and law, based on the idea that this is discipleship.
So, when you strive to be good, you are resisting sinning as the qualification, and that puts you under the law, and "the law is the power of sin".
So, that is the wrong mind, and the law will beat you, and keep you under its dominion, sinning and confessing..
Thats what it does. This is why Paul says "the letter KILLETH"..........see that?
And He says of the 10 commandments...>>"the ministration of DEATH".
See that curse?
Thats a curse. The curse is......"that which i would do, i dont do, and that which i would not do... i do".
See that?
That is Paul trying to live a holy life, by resisting sin. That is Philippians 3
The result? Sinning and Confessing. Condemnation and Guilt.
This is why: "Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE of THE LAW"., by putting us here with His BLOOD....= "you are not under the law, you are UNDER GRACE"... = (born again Spirit).
So, the RIGHT MIND, which is to walk in the spirit, is to exist "under Grace", where you are then empowered as this......>"Christ always gives me the Victory""
See, if Christ always gives you the victory,......over the world, the flesh, and the devil, you are empowered to live Holy.
Until a believer comes to this RIGHT MIND< they exist here......"Apart from me, you can do nothing"....>Jesus said.
He's not talking about not being born again.
He's talking about trying to life the Holy Life by willpower and striving against sin, as when you do that, you are in the carnal mind, and that puts you under the law., which empowers your flesh., as..."the power of SIN>......is........the.....LAW".
Walking in the Spirit, is to exist "in Christ",...... resting in God's Grace, no longer trying to be good, and in that mind, you establish real faith, as you are no longer trying to do what only God can do through you.
See you are never actually Good.
THe only Good you possess is this....>"The gift of Righteousness".
Its funny that a person, a believer, thinks that they now are become good by doing the same STUFF you could do before you were saved, and this is "filthy rags".
See, your deeds are not changed......What is changes is your STATUS as a SON OF GOD.
THat is where the GOOD Is found......as to be that , you have been "made righteous" by GOD's Blood.
See, salvation is more than just forgiven sin. Its also the empowerment to live a perfected discipleship.
God says....."be ye Holy as I AM holy".........and most believers are trying to be holy According to how they think this is, and that is why they fail, as there is no power found in willpower, and there is no good found in your trying to be good.
GOOD is God, GOOD is His Righteousness......and when we begin to live in THAT understanding, then we leave the FLESH that is trying to imitate good, and will never be good.
See, doing a good deed, does not make you good......What make you good is God's Give of Righteouness.
The power to live Holy, is a GIFT, just like "the gift of salvation" is a Gift. Just like the 9 spiritual GIFTS are "gift".
Listen.
Everything that God expects from us, He supplies to us......or we could never become what HE expects.
Here is a KEY.
Perfected discipleship is not you being good..........its God being the power of your Good, living through you.
That is GOD Grace.
And to live there, is to have the renewed mind.
THis is why Paul says......>"when i am WEAK, ... i am Strong".......in other words, when i give up trying to be GOOD< and rest in God's Goodness, then i find the power of CHRIST, living IN ME, as my Goodness........= "Christ always GIVES ME the Victory".
See that MIND?
Get that mind reader, and you have found ....>"walking in the Spirit" and the cure for the sinning and confessing issue.
Reader.......... when a born again Christian....... is not resting in the Grace of God, = NOT being empowered to live the Holy life by Christ, then they exist as....>"Apart from me you can do NOTHING">.
And you see the nothing....as.........they have no power. They can't understand the word.....>Prayers are not answered.....They sin and confess, and can't stop.
Thy are APART from JESUS"s power, "Apart from me you can do NOTHING">.......yet they are born again.
No, dearest friend.
This is the slippery slope that leads to the falling away. This is the secret, covert, subtle lawlessness that Paul warned was already spreading in his day.
"Don't try to be good, don't try to be obedient, because you can never be. You're not actually good. And when and if you do try you will fail and lose it all."
No, the law doesn't cause us to sin. Our flesh does. The law of God isn't the enemy, our flesh is. Our flesh hates the law.
The ten commandments are not "the ministration of death". The ministration of death is literally what it describes: It's priests ministering to God by killing things and sprinkling their lifeblood to clean, because wages of sin is death. The ten commandments are not the curse. Death is the curse. Paul struggled because of his sinful flesh (as we all do) not because of the commandments.
Notice what the very last book of the bible says...
Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
The race to run for the saints includes having faith (in Messiah) and being obedient (to Commandments). To try, knowing we're not perfect and trusting that we have help.
This is the slippery slope that leads to the falling away. This is the secret, covert, subtle lawlessness that Paul warned was already spreading in his day.
"Don't try to be good, don't try to be obedient, because you can never be. You're not actually good. And when and if you do try you will fail and lose it all."
No, the law doesn't cause us to sin. Our flesh does. The law of God isn't the enemy, our flesh is. Our flesh hates the law.
The ten commandments are not "the ministration of death". The ministration of death is literally what it describes: It's priests ministering to God by killing things and sprinkling their lifeblood to clean, because wages of sin is death. The ten commandments are not the curse. Death is the curse. Paul struggled because of his sinful flesh (as we all do) not because of the commandments.
Notice what the very last book of the bible says...
Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
The race to run for the saints includes having faith (in Messiah) and being obedient (to Commandments). To try, knowing we're not perfect and trusting that we have help.
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..Conversation is futile if we don't accept what each other says.
So, your source is false.
The original KJV< not the spelled checked that is the revision,...........the Translators created the first one, carefully using smaller TEXT, when they inserted a word they felt was needed for clarity.
These were later italicized, vs just have the added words as smaller print.
The added words were always there, always noted, always revealed.
They just changed the way they were shown to be added.
I recognize that the NT is not a part of your theology, and that Paul's doctrine is not a part of your understanding of the NT.
Paul said..... ""But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in STONES".
Notice the word "stones"...........that means...>"stones".........that means THE 10 Commandments.
Also, Jesus has "redeemed us from the CURSE of the LAW" as the LETTER< (the law) KILLETH< but the SPIRIT Giveth life.
So, the only "slipper slope" if the one you are sliding down.
Its defined as LEGALISM.
Do not try to replace the blood of Jesus with the old covenant that was replaced by the Blood of jesus.
As when you do that, you are found to be an enemy of the Cross.
Paul said..... ""But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in STONES".
Notice the word "stones"...........that means...>"stones".........that means THE 10 Commandments.
Also, Jesus has "redeemed us from the CURSE of the LAW" as the LETTER< (the law) KILLETH< but the SPIRIT Giveth life.
So, the only "slipper slope" if the one you are sliding down.
Its defined as LEGALISM.
Do not try to replace the blood of Jesus with the old covenant that was replaced by the Blood of jesus.
As when you do that, you are found to be an enemy of the Cross.
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Never thought or even tried to insinuate that perfect discipleship can be done through our own powers by trying to be good in and of our own selves. It is all through faith in Jesus and walking in the Spirit.
It does take renewing our minds....when we find ourselves walking in the flesh then we are not truly walking in the Spirit. This is when we need to turn to the Lord and renew our minds through the spirit and faith in our position "salvation" in Jesus Christ. How is this not considered repenting...If repenting is actually turning to God and having faith in Him who delivered us and set us free?
It does take renewing our minds....when we find ourselves walking in the flesh then we are not truly walking in the Spirit. This is when we need to turn to the Lord and renew our minds through the spirit and faith in our position "salvation" in Jesus Christ. How is this not considered repenting...If repenting is actually turning to God and having faith in Him who delivered us and set us free?
Jesus say depart from me because you not help the hungry, not helping stranger(rasist) not helping people that need cloth or don't have love to the poor or not obey Jesus teaching
So salvation need obedience
Matt 25
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
So salvation need obedience
Matt 25
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
For me threads about "Salvation and works" is like listen to a lawyer So as I am reading the OP's post one word keeps coming to mind.. I am not thinking it yet it keeps coming back "Gift". Myself I don't see believing as a "work". That right there .. that "faith" to believe.
Leave it to man to muddy up the waters. In all of this WHO does it point to? You aka self. WHO is doing the work? Anyway its gift.. just shh and take it. Then relax.. for what He started.. He will finish in you. Lol WORK together so He gets ALL the glory and praise.
So as I am reading the OP's post one word keeps coming to mind.. I am not thinking it yet it keeps coming back "Gift". Myself I don't see believing as a "work". That right there .. that "faith" to believe. Leave it to man to muddy up the waters. In all of this WHO does it point to? You aka self. WHO is doing the work? Anyway its gift.. just shh and take it. Then relax.. for what He started.. He will finish in you. Lol WORK together so He gets ALL the glory and praise.
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ON one hand, "what is not of faith, is sin".... very true.
Yet, the born again, are "made righteous", and exist "in Christ"........so, as there is no sin found "in Christ".
The born again SPIRIT is the real you, if you are born again.....and...... "the body is dead because of sin", .....and the mind, is not born again....... and needs to be renewed.
So, its not sin, if a believer has "fallen from Grace"......its deception.
They are in wrong Faith., yet born again.
it has become....>"i keep myself saved, by.....This".......and that list is legalism.
legalism is self saving, vs Christ being trusted to keep you saved.
Paul says........"who has bewitched you, (the fallen from grace legalist)......that you no longer obey the Truth".
So, the issue isn't sinning, when a person is up on the Cross of their own Self Righteousness trying to keep themselves saved,..... the issue is "no longer obeying the Truth".
Jesus is "the Truth"......and when you dont obey Him, by correct faith, as the renewed mind, you are : "apart from me you can do nothing".
Notice that Jesus does not say you wont try to be good and keep the law, and the commandments.
He just defines that as "nothing", because it is nothing.
Notice He says that you can do "nothing".
And that is this.......>"doing nothing""" is what you are doing, when you try to live Holy in your flesh by will and striving.
Its a do nothing situation, because its doing nothing by the Spirit.
All things with God are "spirit and truth"......never the flesh......never our willpower.....never our trying to be good, in our own striving.
We are """made righteous"""........so, we dont have to worry about being good, as how can you of yourself be better than to already have been """""made righteous""?
See, the born again, START as "made righteous"......we dont have to try to get there by lifestyle.
We are already there based on being born again.
So, discipleship is not about trying to become righteous, as we are already "the righteousness of God, in Christ".
Discipleship is all about becoming "the fullness of the Stature of Christ".........and Paul teaches this as....>"as many as BE PERFECT".
So, the born again are as righteous as God, the instant you are born again = based on the BLood of Jesus, .... and then we enter into....>"working out your salvation".
We dont work it out to try to keep it........ As we are kept by the Blood of Jesus and the new Birth.
Once born again, always born again.
You can't stop being born, you can just live wrong, in both cases.......Earthly birth or 2nd Birth.
We "work out" what we POSSESS already...(Salvation) .......and that is to come to understand who we are in Christ , perfectly, and exist in this renewed mind of Real Faith.
Most believers are not taught this, so, they can't begin to start till they SEE IT, and you have to be taught it, to see it.
This is why God sends out "teachers" as well as Apostles, and Bishops/Pastors, and Evangelists.
The Holy Spirit teaches you, but the Teacher shows you what to believe., correctly.
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Our power to overcome is not found in trying to be good., as that fails just like it fails the unbeliever who tries it.
In fact its the same thing.....the same fail.
Our VICTORY is found in realizing who we have become, as a new creation, and exiting in this MIND that is renewed.
There is your Power of Christ found in you.
Paul teaches this as...>"its not i who live.......(its not how i see myself, and what i try to do).....but its Christ who lives in me".
Thats the renewed mind teaching that reality., that truth.
Christ living HIS LIFE through us, is : "Christ always gives me the Victory".
And He does this when we stop trying to be good, and rest in the TRUTH that we are made righteous already, 2000 yrs ago by God on the Cross.
Bumper sticker : When WE work......God rests........... When we rest........GOD works.
The notion of legalism was always strange. Did you know that the only field in which being legal and obeying law is taught to be wrong is when it comes to God, in modern Christianity, and not anywhere else in life? It wasn't this way in Christianity's past. But I digress...
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The New Covenant is explained by Jeremiah 31: The (same) law was to be placed in the heart by the spirit and no longer on stone as letters. This is the context Paul is explaining in 2 Corinthians 3.
The LETTER, the LETTER kills. Not the law, the LETTER. But the Spirit of the same law, gives life. It's not the commandments that kill but the LETTER. We must understand what Paul is saying. He didn't write like normal people because he was a scholar with the equivalent of a doctorate in the law.
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Actually your misinterpretation of Paul's writings exemplifies the very weakness of "the letter". You've even misunderstood several of my post because you misread the letters I typed to you (I mean, your reply to me in post #427 shows you didn't understand my post at all).
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This was the problem Paul was addressing. When it comes to concepts as important as in the oracles of God, misreading the letters can cause death instead of bringing life to a person.
This was the Pharisees' problem. Their misinterpretation of the Law created further bondage for the people by adding unnecessary fluff making the people twofold the children of hell than before they were taught anything. The Messiah came to properly interpret the law the way it was always meant to be received...by the Spirit.
Recall the scene at Mt. Sinai
The law was never meant to be given through stone. it was ALWAYS intended to be given by Spirit, and so the Spirit of the Almighty spoke the law to the people. Every commandment was first given by the Spirit, on the breath (ruach)..but the people were so corrupt they couldn't survive it.
These were the SAME descendants of Abraham who communed with God face to face, and of Jacob who wrestled with God. But after living in Egypt they were so corrupt they felt their lives draining away with each word because the law was/is so pure. So the law was veiled in stone and delivered through a fleshy man, dumbed-down to become a shadow of what it originally was, just so they could manage to receive it.
Here's what Pauls says in the New Testament concerning the Law and God's judgment
Romans 2:5-16 NIV [bracket mine]
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts [NEW COVENANT FULFILLED], their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
^^^Paul said this.
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The New Covenant is explained by Jeremiah 31: The (same) law was to be placed in the heart by the spirit and no longer on stone as letters. This is the context Paul is explaining in 2 Corinthians 3.
The LETTER, the LETTER kills. Not the law, the LETTER. But the Spirit of the same law, gives life. It's not the commandments that kill but the LETTER. We must understand what Paul is saying. He didn't write like normal people because he was a scholar with the equivalent of a doctorate in the law.
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Actually your misinterpretation of Paul's writings exemplifies the very weakness of "the letter". You've even misunderstood several of my post because you misread the letters I typed to you (I mean, your reply to me in post #427 shows you didn't understand my post at all).
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This was the problem Paul was addressing. When it comes to concepts as important as in the oracles of God, misreading the letters can cause death instead of bringing life to a person.
This was the Pharisees' problem. Their misinterpretation of the Law created further bondage for the people by adding unnecessary fluff making the people twofold the children of hell than before they were taught anything. The Messiah came to properly interpret the law the way it was always meant to be received...by the Spirit.
Recall the scene at Mt. Sinai
The law was never meant to be given through stone. it was ALWAYS intended to be given by Spirit, and so the Spirit of the Almighty spoke the law to the people. Every commandment was first given by the Spirit, on the breath (ruach)..but the people were so corrupt they couldn't survive it.
These were the SAME descendants of Abraham who communed with God face to face, and of Jacob who wrestled with God. But after living in Egypt they were so corrupt they felt their lives draining away with each word because the law was/is so pure. So the law was veiled in stone and delivered through a fleshy man, dumbed-down to become a shadow of what it originally was, just so they could manage to receive it.
Here's what Pauls says in the New Testament concerning the Law and God's judgment
Romans 2:5-16 NIV [bracket mine]
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts [NEW COVENANT FULFILLED], their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
^^^Paul said this.
Why are you so hung up on this and dead set against the fact that you can indeed dishonor or disrespect the dead?
Have you read some of the Jewish literature about Mary?
If so, then case in point.
Not going to link to any of it here because it is total garbage and blasphemy.
However, to make a long story short, (without adding in a bunch of blasphemy) it is really disrespectful and not only to the memory of Mary alone, but also to God.
Now Mary is dead, so it doesn't matter to her, but I'm sure it does to God.
God is not pleased when anyone disrespects any of his children (chosen servants)...dead or alive.
To be clear, I have not said that anyone here has done that, but it can indeed be done....just saying.
Have you read some of the Jewish literature about Mary?
If so, then case in point.
Not going to link to any of it here because it is total garbage and blasphemy.
However, to make a long story short, (without adding in a bunch of blasphemy) it is really disrespectful and not only to the memory of Mary alone, but also to God.
Now Mary is dead, so it doesn't matter to her, but I'm sure it does to God.
God is not pleased when anyone disrespects any of his children (chosen servants)...dead or alive.
To be clear, I have not said that anyone here has done that, but it can indeed be done....just saying.
Here is what Moab got for disrespecting the dead by digging up a dead king and burning his bones. Seems like God was pretty adamant against disrespecting the dead.
Amos 2
King James Version
2 Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime:
2 But I will send a fire upon Moab, and it shall devour the palaces of Kirioth: and Moab shall die with tumult, with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet:
3 And I will cut off the judge from the midst thereof, and will slay all the princes thereof with him, saith the Lord.
4 Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the Lord, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked:
Here's some commentary on it, as well:
<< Amos 1:15 Amos 2:2 >>
Amos 2:1-3
Moab's major transgression was the result of a long-burning feud between Moab and Edom. Out of spite and anger, the Moabites dug up the bones of a long-dead Edomite king and threw them into a fire. This is another example of taking advantage of someone who is weak and defenseless. Can a corpse fight back? The principle here is that every sin has a boomerang. God noticed the sin, burning the bones of the king of Edom, and promised to avenge it (Deuteronomy 32:35).
Amos 2
King James Version
2 Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime:
2 But I will send a fire upon Moab, and it shall devour the palaces of Kirioth: and Moab shall die with tumult, with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet:
3 And I will cut off the judge from the midst thereof, and will slay all the princes thereof with him, saith the Lord.
4 Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the Lord, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked:
Here's some commentary on it, as well:
<< Amos 1:15 Amos 2:2 >>
Amos 2:1-3
Moab's major transgression was the result of a long-burning feud between Moab and Edom. Out of spite and anger, the Moabites dug up the bones of a long-dead Edomite king and threw them into a fire. This is another example of taking advantage of someone who is weak and defenseless. Can a corpse fight back? The principle here is that every sin has a boomerang. God noticed the sin, burning the bones of the king of Edom, and promised to avenge it (Deuteronomy 32:35).