Is having faith/belief obeying?

[Cameron143]

Sorry, Cam, asked and answered fairly comprehensively. This routine suggesting you weren't answered is about as welcome as you commanding I do something.

Right, you can only obey the command to be holy as God is holy or love as Christ loves if God is performing these things in and through you. This is what the apostle was talking about when he said...I live, yet not I; Christ lives in me.
The simple fact is that we cannot obey the commandments of God apart from God performing them in and through us. So God isn't simply the initiator, He is also the sustainer. It is God first, and last, and at all points in between. It is always God.

 

[sawdust]

OK, please explain how connecting these 2 words is a tautology. Or confirm that you mean obedience and works is the tautology. Better, replace works with good works that James is obviously taking about.

I said faith-obedience because we're commanded to believe, so when we believe we've obeyed. So, if you see this as tautology, then I think we see it the same way and I wish we could drop one word while always knowing the other is attached. But most here cannot do this.

We're yet to get into works so going to James is premature and even then, I'm not sure I'd agree with you, especially when we attach obedience to works instead of good works because dead works can be done in obedience apart from faith.

Please clarify beyond your second paragraph.

I think terminology is an issue. When I say "I believe" I am speaking of an act of our will that acknowledges reality/truth. It has no power to change anything. When I speak of faith I am speaking of that which comes from the word (Rom.10:17) in which is the power to save, initially the Gospel (Rom.1:16) but subsequently our lives in a fallen world ie. from, guilt, shame, fear etc. those things that would destroy our character and daily living.

So when you say "faith-obedience", to my mind, you are saying the same thing. If you have faith, you have obeyed or you wouldn't have faith. The word would not be alive and working within. Initially you pass from death to life (believing the Gospel) but as you continue to apply the same principle of believing (acknowledgement) the word and standing/resting upon His truth (application), irrespective of how you might feel or what you might be seeing, that is your obedience to the word for the Word is all that matters. Out from that your faith grows and out from your faith comes good works. Good works become second nature. You don't have to think about "what should I do or say"? Obviously it takes time to reach that level of maturity and it continues till our dying breath but we should reach a level where we are not constantly having to walk around as if we have just come out of a darkened room, as in 'blinded by the light'.

It goes without saying the whole process is expedited by grace in the filling of the Spirit.

Hope that makes it clearer.

 

[studier]

Right, you can only obey the command to be holy as God is holy or love as Christ loves if God is performing these things in and through you. This is what the apostle was talking about when he said...I live, yet not I; Christ lives in me.
The simple fact is that we cannot obey the commandments of God apart from God performing them in and through us. So God isn't simply the initiator, He is also the sustainer. It is God first, and last, and at all points in between. It is always God.

So God performs faith and in through the unbeliever and the believer?

In regard to the believer, we're cooperating with God and doing what He provides His capacity for us both to will and work. This is not the same as God doing everything. In all of these type of instructions re: the Christian there is an active and a passive concept. There are nearly 600 commands in the Epistles alone most of which are a mandate made to the volition of the Christian or to the collective Body of Christ. The ever growing faith-obedience mindset in the Christian resulting in good works done by the Christian with God providing the capacity is really not optional.

If you're going to make such statements concerning Scriptures, I will ask you to post the verse and not just the verse reference.

 

[studier]

I think terminology is an issue. When I say "I believe" I am speaking of an act of our will that acknowledges reality/truth. It has no power to change anything. When I speak of faith I am speaking of that which comes from the word (Rom.10:17) in which is the power to save, initially the Gospel (Rom.1:16) but subsequently our lives in a fallen world ie. from, guilt, shame, fear etc. those things that would destroy our character and daily living.

Thanks for explaining. Since the word believe can also mean faith and trust, it might be better for us to agree on some terminology to use for Biblical Faith or True Faith or??? I agree there is a sense of belief that should be qualified as not Biblical Belief or Biblical Faith.

So when you say "faith-obedience", to my mind, you are saying the same thing

Good to know and that's what I asked about your mention of a tautology. The problem is that many on this and other threads do not see it as we do. Thus my mention of my wish that they did. In my mind it is set that my faith in God is also obedience to God. I don't get to play games that I'm believing in Him if I am disobeying Him.

Re: the remainder of your post, yes it does make it clearer, so thank you. And at the moment having done a quick read, I think we are on the same page, so to speak. I especially liked the part about maturity and good works becoming second nature - if not first nature as we become more like our First-Born Brother and Lord and so like our Father. One day when we see Him as He is, but already and not yet...

 

[Cameron143]

So God performs faith and in through the unbeliever and the believer?

In regard to the believer, we're cooperating with God and doing what He provides His capacity for us both to will and work. This is not the same as God doing everything. In all of these type of instructions re: the Christian there is an active and a passive concept. There are nearly 600 commands in the Epistles alone most of which are a mandate made to the volition of the Christian or to the collective Body of Christ. The ever growing faith-obedience mindset in the Christian resulting in good works done by the Christian with God providing the capacity is really not optional.

If you're going to make such statements concerning Scriptures, I will ask you to post the verse and not just the verse reference.

Faith always comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God...Romans 10:17.

What is the ever growing faith-obedience mindset? We are said to possess the mind of Christ...1 Corinthians 2:16. Is this what you are referring to? And what is the capacity God provides? Is that like the power of God that raised Jesus from the dead in Ephesians 1:20 or 3:20 the power that works in us.

Given the sheer fact that there are over 600 commandments, how does one even remember them all at once, let alone perform them?

I'm particularly interested in what you believe this capacity is that God is providing.

 

[JBTN]

Everyone who believes:

1. Has had a change of mind. Repentance/Metanoia Luke 24:47
2. Is being obedient. 1John 3:23
3. Has been immersed into Christ and sealed there. Ephesians 1:13
4. Has been forgiven of their sins. Ephesians 1:7, Luke 24:47
5. Has been circumcised with the circumcision made without hands. Colossians 2:11
6. Has been immersed into Christ. Galatians 3:27, Romans 6:3, Ephesians 1:13
7. Has been raised up from the dead to walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4
8. May know that they have eternal life. 1John 5:13

“Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.5.1.ESV

“Kefa answered them, “Turn from sin, return to God, and each of you be immersed on the authority of Yeshua the Messiah into forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh!”
‭‭Acts of Emissaries of Yeshua (Act)‬ ‭2‬:‭38‬ ‭CJB‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1275/act.2.38.CJB

 

[mailmandan]

Good enough. Disagreeing with #78 and #79 but not explaining why the explanations from those Scriptures are wrong is a problem. Honestly it just looks like tradition trumps Scripture, which is very widespread.

What tradition? I'm not the one with the problem and I have already explained numerous times that believing is not multiple acts of obedience/works. Faith is believing and multiple acts of obedience which follow are works. It's obvious where Believer08 is going with his argument. He is trying to "shoehorn" obedience/works "into" believing which then culminates is salvation by believing + works. He said:

What does it mean to believe in Jesus? More specifically, when we read in the Bible about “believing” and when we sing about “believing,” is it merely talking about a heartfelt, mental assent to the truthfulness of who Jesus is and what He did for us on the cross? Or, is it something else? Maybe even something more?

Believing unto salvation includes trust and reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation in addition to mental assent belief. It's one thing to believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" which is "mental assent" belief that even the demons have and it's another thing to trust and rely in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romabs 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) That is saving belief.

The Bible teaches, plainly and repeatedly, that truly “believing” as God expects and requires (and as that word is often used in the New Testament) is equivalent to obeying. Someone might read that statement and immediately object, “Believing is not the same as obeying. There are many people, in the Bible and today, who believe but do not obey.

To believe but never obey at all is an oxymoron. All believers are fruitful but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Folks who redefine believing as obedience/works (particularly Campbellites) do so to justify their works based false gospel.

 

[mailmandan]

I am having difficulty understanding how some do not believe that having biblical faith is obeying.

Don't confuse the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow believing the gospel.

 

[studier]

What tradition? I'm not the one with the problem and I have already explained numerous times that believing is not multiple acts of obedience/works. Faith is believing and multiple acts of obedience which follow are works. It's obvious where Believer08 is going with his argument. He is trying to "shoehorn" obedience/works "into" believing which then culminates is salvation by believing + works. He said:

What does it mean to believe in Jesus? More specifically, when we read in the Bible about “believing” and when we sing about “believing,” is it merely talking about a heartfelt, mental assent to the truthfulness of who Jesus is and what He did for us on the cross? Or, is it something else? Maybe even something more?

Believing unto salvation includes trust and reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation in addition to mental assent belief. It's one thing to believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" which is "mental assent" belief that even the demons have and it's another thing to trust and rely in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romabs 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) That is saving belief.

The Bible teaches, plainly and repeatedly, that truly “believing” as God expects and requires (and as that word is often used in the New Testament) is equivalent to obeying. Someone might read that statement and immediately object, “Believing is not the same as obeying. There are many people, in the Bible and today, who believe but do not obey.

To believe but never obey at all is an oxymoron. All believers are fruitful but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Folks who redefine believing as obedience/works (particularly Campbellites) do so to justify their works based false gospel.

What is the only foundation that can be built upon according to Paul in 1Cor3?

 

[mailmandan]

What is the only foundation that can be built upon according to Paul in 1Cor3?

1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 

[studier]

1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Elaborated a bit Jesus is the Christ. What's "the Christ"?

 

[GWH]

I think terminology is an issue. When I say "I believe" I am speaking of an act of our will that acknowledges reality/truth. It has no power to change anything. When I speak of faith I am speaking of that which comes from the word (Rom.10:17) in which is the power to save, initially the Gospel (Rom.1:16) but subsequently our lives in a fallen world ie. from, guilt, shame, fear etc. those things that would destroy our character and daily living.

So when you say "faith-obedience", to my mind, you are saying the same thing. If you have faith, you have obeyed or you wouldn't have faith. The word would not be alive and working within. Initially you pass from death to life (believing the Gospel) but as you continue to apply the same principle of believing (acknowledgement) the word and standing/resting upon His truth (application), irrespective of how you might feel or what you might be seeing, that is your obedience to the word for the Word is all that matters. Out from that your faith grows and out from your faith comes good works. Good works become second nature. You don't have to think about "what should I do or say"? Obviously it takes time to reach that level of maturity and it continues till our dying breath but we should reach a level where we are not constantly having to walk around as if we have just come out of a darkened room, as in 'blinded by the light'.

It goes without saying the whole process is expedited by grace in the filling of the Spirit.

Hope that makes it clearer.

I like your definitions, especially understanding that faith = will or is an act of will--the will to seek/believe the Word/God. (MT 7:7 :^)

 

[GWH]

Don't confuse the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow believing the gospel.

Yes, the former is faith in the kerygma/Gospel that satisfies GRFS, and the latter is faith in the didachaic doctrines
that follow/build on the foundation and further sanctification toward the goal of perfection in heaven.

 

[mailmandan]

Elaborated a bit Jesus is the Christ. What's "the Christ"?

Jesus is the Christ, the anointed One. He is the Messiah.

 

[studier]

Faith always comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God...Romans 10:17.

What is the ever growing faith-obedience mindset? We are said to possess the mind of Christ...1 Corinthians 2:16. Is this what you are referring to? And what is the capacity God provides? Is that like the power of God that raised Jesus from the dead in Ephesians 1:20 or 3:20 the power that works in us.

Given the sheer fact that there are over 600 commandments, how does one even remember them all at once, let alone perform them?

I'm particularly interested in what you believe this capacity is that God is providing.

I'll answer first what you say you're particularly interested in:

Note how different translators are choosing different wording to bring out what the word I'm speaking of as capacity means:

NET Philippians 2:13 for the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort– for the sake of his good pleasure– is God.​

​

ESV Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.​

The word is energeō (which you should be able to carry over into English to get some range of meaning from). Here's a lexical definition:

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)​

​

[BDAG] ἐνεργέω (energeō)​

1. intr. to put one’s capabilities into operation, work, be at work, be active, operate, be effective​

​

2. trans. to bring someth. about through use of capability, work, produce, effect​

​

Here Paul uses the same word and shows again the interplay between his effort and God's in him

ESV Colossians 1:29 For this I toil, struggling with all his energy (energeia - same word in noun form) that he powerfully works (energeō) within me.​

​

Ever-growing faith-obedience mindset is the growth to maturity and beyond. Paul covers the 'beyond' part in Phil3 referring to it as the pursuit of the high call of God in Christ Jesus. Faith-obedience is first internal, and it grows.

The commands are another whole topic. One of those commands is in Phil2:12 which ties to our growth in salvation.

 

[studier]

Jesus is the Christ, the anointed One. He is the Messiah.

Christ & anointed & Messiah are the same word in different languages. So the question stands, What's the Christ?

When Paul was evangelizing (see in Acts13:16...) he referenced Psalm2 in Acts16:33. Read Psalm2 and please explain what Christ means according to Paul's reference.

 

[Cameron143]

I'll answer first what you say you're particularly interested in:

Note how different translators are choosing different wording to bring out what the word I'm speaking of as capacity means:

NET Philippians 2:13 for the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort– for the sake of his good pleasure– is God.​

​

ESV Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.​

The word is energeō (which you should be able to carry over into English to get some range of meaning from). Here's a lexical definition:

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)​

​

[BDAG] ἐνεργέω (energeō)​

1. intr. to put one’s capabilities into operation, work, be at work, be active, operate, be effective​

​

2. trans. to bring someth. about through use of capability, work, produce, effect​

​

Here Paul uses the same word and shows again the interplay between his effort and God's in him

ESV Colossians 1:29 For this I toil, struggling with all his energy (energeia - same word in noun form) that he powerfully works (energeō) within me.​

​

Ever-growing faith-obedience mindset is the growth to maturity and beyond. Paul covers the 'beyond' part in Phil3 referring to it as the pursuit of the high call of God in Christ Jesus. Faith-obedience is first internal, and it grows.

The commands are another whole topic. One of those commands is in Phil2:12 which ties to our growth in salvation.

Neither of these verses have man exercising the power of God, but have man being responsible for responding to it. Paul states this emphatically: he directed his energies so that God would work in him to the greatest extent. And this is what he tells the Philippians to do as well. That is, to respond to the knowledge that God is working in them by directing their energy to maximizing this power in them. This is what the Philippians were exhorted to do.

The idea of capacity therefore seems odd to me. We don't gain capacity because the power exists outside ourselves. We merely learn how to access the power and learn how not to hinder it. We don't acquire a greater capacity to act independently of God employing His power, but acquire a greater understanding of the ways of God that His power may be evidenced in us.

We find an example of the outworking of this in Paul's life in 2 Corinthians 12. Having been given affliction to humble him, Paul prays for relief that doesn't come. He gladly accepts this fate and tells why: that the power of Christ would rest upon Him.
What we find here is that Paul has gained greater insight into the ways God works, and the result of this is that the power of God is manifested upon Him. It isn't his obedience that led to this, but greater understanding of the ways of God.

 

[mailmandan]

Christ & anointed & Messiah are the same word in different languages. So the question stands, What's the Christ?

When Paul was evangelizing (see in Acts13:16...) he referenced Psalm2 in Acts16:33. Read Psalm2 and please explain what Christ means according to Paul's reference.

Why the quiz? Just make your point. Christ comes from the Greek word Christos, meaning "anointed one."

 

[studier]

Why the quiz? Just make your point. Christ comes from the Greek word Christos, meaning "anointed one."

Sorry, but no. I'll assume my question was not asked with sufficient clarity and regroup. And I do appreciate your answering before.

Jesus is the Christ/Anointed/Mashiach. What is the Christ?

Hopefully this is clear enough. If not, please explain "Christ" from Psalm2 as Paul referenced.

 

[studier]

Neither of these verses have man exercising the power of God, but have man being responsible for responding to it.

Actually, they speak of Paul working by using the energy/capability God provides within Paul. God provides the capability. Paul does the work.

Paul states this emphatically: he directed his energies so that God would work in him to the greatest extent

God gave Paul a job to do Col1:25
Paul was doing that job that had a goal Col1:28
Paul working to achieve that goal exerted himself to weariness by fighting with God's energy that God energized in Paul in power/powerfully Col1:29

Both Phil2:12-13 and this section of Col have the same concept - God commands > the Christian obeys (Faith-Obedience) <> God is supplying the energy/capability for the obedient Christian to do the commanded work (Faith-Obedience-Good Works). God and His Faithfully Obedient Children working cooperatively together.