Is God that cruel?

p_rehbein · Nov 27, 2018

I embrace? And, again, you lie/distort/demean. I said I have friends who were JW, and they were good people. I also said that JW's have never been rude, insulting or demaning........to anyone I know of.

MUCH UNLIKE THOSE SUCH AS YOU.

You must have found the Thread. You must be SO PROUD to proclaim yourself a disciple of a man who ordered the murder of people who disagreed with his teachings. That is HISTORICAL FACT.........

Wow....

p_rehbein · Nov 27, 2018

that PFT guy notwithstanding.........

Those of you who do believe in predestination, let me ask you a question.

Rather than profess to be a disciple of John Calvin, which is what you do when you identify yourselves as Calvinists, WHY NOT identify yourselves as disciples of Christ who believe in predestination?

Would that not make more sense? Just as Christians were called Christians because they professed to be disciples of Christ, those who identify themselves as Calvinists are disciples of Calvin.

Being a disciple of a man ain't ever gonna work in my opinion, in fact, Jesus had something to say about this:

Matthew 15:7) Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

I really think you guys would be better served to do this........and I won't bother to make the joke about being predestined to do one or the other.......

ANY TRUTHFUL review of History will reveal that John Calvin did some horrible things..........but GOD can take such a person and make a good thing from it............using that person for what HE wills.

This could be your explanation...........or not............your choice.

But as long as you identify yourselves as Calvinists, you will always meet with resistance because of who Calvin was and what he did.

Identify yourselves as Christians who believe in predestination, and you will get some arguments/disagreements, just as with water baptism, grace only, Holy Trinity, etc......but NOTHING like what you get when claiming to be disciples of Calvin.

Anyway, my thoughts............mayhaps you will consider it.......

Endoscopy · Nov 27, 2018

Lillywolf said:

Why on a Christian site do you put words in my mouth I never ever said? Creeds were created by the early elders as a method of evangelism. They are a short discription of what a Christian must believe. You are saying that any authored by man document discussing Biblical truths are never to be used. The Bible is written as a history. Therefore issues are not in a single place. I therefore defy you to get all relevant verses in any particular issue.
Oops
That is the major flaw in your rant against anything written by man. There are systematic theology books that discuss each issue seperately and list all pertinent verses related to the issue.

There are books written by theologians and ministers about various issues and are documented with scripture references.

Then there are the Sunday School pamphlets used to teach the Biblical issues for the students to use in class and have as a reference later. Again with scripture references.

All of these things are filled with scripture references. Therefore solo scriptora is upheld!!

Endoscopy · Nov 27, 2018

p_rehbein said:

that PFT guy notwithstanding.........

Those of you who do believe in predestination, let me ask you a question.

Rather than profess to be a disciple of John Calvin, which is what you do when you identify yourselves as Calvinists, WHY NOT identify yourselves as disciples of Christ who believe in predestination?

Would that not make more sense? Just as Christians were called Christians because they professed to be disciples of Christ, those who identify themselves as Calvinists are disciples of Calvin.

Being a disciple of a man ain't ever gonna work in my opinion, in fact, Jesus had something to say about this:

Matthew 15:7) Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

I really think you guys would be better served to do this........and I won't bother to make the joke about being predestined to do one or the other.......

ANY TRUTHFUL review of History will reveal that John Calvin did some horrible things..........but GOD can take such a person and make a good thing from it............using that person for what HE wills.

This could be your explanation...........or not............your choice.

But as long as you identify yourselves as Calvinists, you will always meet with resistance because of who Calvin was and what he did.

Identify yourselves as Christians who believe in predestination, and you will get some arguments/disagreements, just as with water baptism, grace only, Holy Trinity, etc......but NOTHING like what you get when claiming to be disciples of Calvin.

Anyway, my thoughts............mayhaps you will consider it.......

Creeds were created by the early elders to define what a Christian must believe. They were therefore used as an evangism tool. Keep in mind at that time all Bibles were hand copied thus making them very expensive and rare. Before attacking the creeds prove they are unbiblical in what they state. I keep asking that of the anti Creed ranters and never ever had a reply. So tell me oh members of the anti Creed society what evangelism tool should have been used prior to the invention of the printing press?

Endoscopy · Nov 27, 2018

5 minute rule again prevented me from being able to get the following and edit it in time

Calvinism vs Arminianism Biblical defences are at the bottom.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Arminian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Arminianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Arminianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

p_rehbein · Nov 27, 2018

Endoscopy said:

I would suspect any creed that DID NOT INCLUDE the ORDER to murder folks who disagreed with your creed?

Might wanna start there as that is what we are speaking of..............

Endoscopy · Nov 27, 2018

Keep in mind that the early elders created the creeds a a definition of what a Christian must believe. They also looked at all of the Biblical issues where Christians disagree about and stated that we were to agree to disagree. Arminianism vs Calvinism is one example of the of this.

Endoscopy · Nov 27, 2018

p_rehbein said:

What a disgusting anti Biblical statement on a Christian site even though I understand you must be speaking in jest. If not then obviously you are not a Christian!!

Lillywolf · Nov 27, 2018

Endoscopy said:

You're actually the one putting words in my mouth. (See the bold part of your text)

You don't have the scriptures where Jesus taught creeds then? How about the OT where Jesus figured prominently.

Ah, the rant charge. Such fun.

There are.

Teaching children on a level they understand.

You went from avoiding your proclamation about creeds to affirming your entire post upheld sola scriptura? The creeds defense on your part is abandoned then?

Endoscopy · Nov 27, 2018

Lillywolf said:

Here is a quote I responded to where you claim I was erroneous in my response.
"Now, on to your accusation. Fine. Prove God authored the creeds."

You keep ignoring how I stated solo scriptorum. I stated the books etc quoted scripture in an effort to say what they had written was scriptural. Why do you keep changing what I state. That is very unchristian!!
You are getting very disgusting by rewriting what I state.
I NEVER EVER STATED GOD AUTHORED THE CREEDS!!
I KEEP ASKING WHERE THE CREEDS ARE NOT BIBLICAL!!
I KEEP REFERING TO CHRISTIAN LITERATURE INCLUDIN SUNDAY SCHOOL MATERIAL!!
I KEEP REFERING TO DOCTRINAL STATEMENTS OF CHURCHES AND DENOMINATIONS!!

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO ANSWER THESE ISSUES???

Locoponydirtman · Nov 27, 2018

The only murderer that I'm aware of but has anything to do with John Calvin was that of Servetus. Servetus was put to death, by the civil government of Geneva over which John Calvin had no authority. Calvin did not even participate in his trial. What Calvin did do was turn Servetus in to the authorities as a heretic.

Endoscopy · Nov 27, 2018

"Lillywolf, post: 3782007, member: 274332"]You're actually the one putting words in my mouth. (See the bold part of your text)

You don't have the scriptures where Jesus taught creeds then? How about the OT where Jesus figured prominently.

PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH AGAIN!

Ah, the rant charge. Such fun.
There are.
There are.
Teaching children on a level they understand.
BUT YOU REJECT THE CREEDS BECAUSE THEY WERE WRITTEN BY MAN SO LOGICALLY YOU MUST REJECT ANYTHING WRITTEN BY MAN AND YOU INVOKED SOLO SCRIPTORA!
You went from avoiding your proclamation about creeds to affirming your entire post upheld sola scriptura? The creeds defense on your part is abandoned then?
YOU ARE THE ONE TRYING TO CLAIM I HELD THE CREEDS EQUAL OR GREATOR THAN SCRIPTURE!!!
WHAT I STATED IS THE EARLY ELDERS CREATED THEM TO DEFINE WHAT A CHRISTIAN MUST BELIEVE AND WERE USED AS AN EVANGELISM TOOL. KEEP IN MIND THIS WAS LONG BEFORE THE PRINTING PRESS AND BIBLES WERE RARE AND VERY EXPENSIVE ALONG WITH ANY OTHER WRITTEN WORKS!!

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!!!

VincentG · Nov 27, 2018

God is not cruel He is Holy!

Deade · Nov 27, 2018

There is nothing wrong about our raising the question of how God makes His path so hard to find and follow. Why has He foretold of the imminent failure of His salvation plan for mankind. When we ask questions, it makes us go looking for answers.

God's plans are more far reaching then what we have traditionally been told. Nobody is to be tortured in flames forever. That is Satan's lie to scare you into serving his angel of light into a false Christianity. Those people you are condemning to flames forever, will one day confront you about that.

If we are ever to throw off the blinders that the god of this world has put on Christians, we must start looking at what the word really says. Let's start with Romans 6:23. It says the wages of sin is death, not everlasting life in fiery torment. Let's take that as literal and see where we go from here.

Lillywolf · Nov 27, 2018

Endoscopy said:

Actually, lying is very unchristian.

I think you suffer delusion and now you're lashing out. I've never rewrote what you state. I never said you said God authored the creeds. I asked you to show where God or Jesus made a creed or wrote the creed that defines faith. What you're defending are the compositions of men. What you appear incapable of comprehending, and this is the last I'll address this because you're getting to be rather offensive to your own self now, is you're being asked to prove God approves the creedal system. To put it another way.

What you insist is true is that the creed is what a Christian must believe.....

That statement you made is what caused the query where did Jesus or God ever author a creed themselves. See, in Christianity , which wasn't founded by Christ, it was a term to describe the followers of Christ long after Jesus returned to the Father and initially it was a derogatory term, what we must believe is in Christ and we shall be saved.

Those are your issues.

My posts to you can be followed to the first one. My question was a direct one. You claim a creed is something a Christian must believe in. You're wrong! A Christian may choose to accept a creed as defining their practice. However, a Christian must only believe in Christ Jesus and his Salvation message through the grace of God.

That's it. You believe in creed's. OK. Those were authored encapsulating parts of the scripture so as to make the subsequent doctrine the providence of man. Jesus didn't come to establish a doctrinal religion or denominational practice. Jesus came to teach what was taught in the beginning. And what became corrupted by man encapsulating scripture and working their egocentric desires for power over people into a hierarchy that imagined itself the go-between made necessary by the professed doctrine of worship they'd comprised in order for the faithful to rightly worship God.

Humans and God are inextricably linked. God is our source! From the beginning. Doctrines that lay out rules for belief repeat the same bad history Jesus condemned of the elders practice at the temple. That these are in a church today and are clad in the nomenclature of "Roman Catholic" or "Protestant" creed or doctrine makes no difference to the fact they're the same encapsulation of eternal omniscient powers relationship to its people, because God is not a male nor a female, God is a holy spirit, so as to make the authors and the text of such doctrinal creeds, faith identities, the providence of man. And you said it yourself as proof of that. Creeds are what the Christian MUST BELIEVE! Nonsense! Jesus is what the Christian must believe! It's a holiness relationship, not a formula.

Find peace.

creed

[kreed]
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
See more synonyms for creed on Thesaurus.com
noun

any system, doctrine, or formula of religious belief, as of a denomination.
any system or codification of belief or of opinion.
an authoritative, formulated statement of the chief articles of Christian belief, as the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, or the Athanasian Creed.

RickyZ · Nov 27, 2018

Define Biblical death

Locoponydirtman · Nov 27, 2018

I don't know why Calvin gets so much notorioty, He quoted Augustine more than he did anything else, and I don't think he can actually take credit for the death of Servetus.
I think it's wise to understand that all the founders, and reformers of the faith had feet of clay save one; Jesus himself. Shall we discount the works of Peter because he attempted murder? I'm very sure he hadn't intended to lop off only an ear. I'm sure the fellow was wearing one of those stupid bullet point helmets that was all the rage back then, and that Pete's blow with the sword was a head shot deflected. Resulting in the auditory dismemberment.
It's hard for us to understand what happened so many years ago. Let us all understand that we also stand on feet of clay, and stand by Grace alone.

Absolutely · Nov 27, 2018

Magenta said:

I misunderstood.
My bad

Lillywolf · Nov 27, 2018

Locoponydirtman said:

Calvin gets blamed for Servitus being burned at the stake mostly by what we've encountered often enough in most any Christian forum; Calvinist haters.
You don't even have to actually be a Calvinist to be accused and then harassed due to an accusers strange imagination.
John Calvin arrived at his doctrine by reading the scriptures. Predetermination, predeterminism, are all described in God's word by God. If nothing else, lets not ignore the fact God said those who are in Christ were saved by God before the world was created. That's not Calvinism! THAT is GOD talking.
But those who are filled with hate aren't persuaded by facts that turn their false charges into ash. They are hate. And they always shall be. Who hates a people for invoking God's own words? People who don't respect God's own words.

This is a link to a rather lengthy article concerning the false charge that's plagued the legacy of John Calvin for all this time. That he had Michael Servitus burned at the stake and using greenwood, which burns slowly and causes the victim to suffer an excruciating death.

This is a video from that link above. The issue of John Calvin's responsibility for Servitus execution is herein debated among the learned.

Less than 11 minutes long.

Published on Jan 4, 2011
Michael Servetus holds the distinction of being the only man burned in effigy by the Catholics and burned in fact by the Protestants. He died in Geneva because he escaped from a Catholic prison in Vienna where he was slated for execution. Calvin opposed his burning because it was too painful and cruel. But he was over-ruled. Servetus was not executed by Calvin but by the Geneva authorities, who, contrary to popular belief, were not Calvin's puppets. Servetus was also the only person executed for heresy in Geneva during Calvin's era. Contrary to popular mythology blood did not flow in the streets of Geneva during Calvin's life.

Magenta · Nov 27, 2018

Absolutely said:

That is fine, I really appreciate your owning up to it, and what I said could have been easily misunderstood as well. I do understand the idea that as children of God, we are chastised for our own good in growing in Him

That is Scriptural

However, the OP was talking about God punishing His children with hell, and God's children are not punished in that way. It is a major issue for non-believers, who rail against hell even though they don't believe in it, and who also think that it is unfair they will be barred from Heaven even though they do not believe in that, either. Contradictions run rampant in their thinking because it is not aligned with the Truth of God's Word.

Is God that cruel?

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