Is Calvinism the truth?

[phil36]

oh so tricky here is a pre-programmed question Calvinists are taught to ask even though no one has ever said God is not Sovereign.

He is. That does not mean he is also a puppet master. YOU are saying God causes disaster, sin, evil and every other thing that believers KNOW are not from God.

Yes you are.

I was never taught to ask that 🤔

And who says God is a puppet master.. You obviously do not understand reformed theology.

And also no one says that God is the cause of sin or evil.

But do you think he is not in control over sin and evil, disaster and calamity.🤔

 

[Polar]

I was never taught to ask that 🤔

And who says God is a puppet master.. You obviously do not understand reformed theology.

And also no one says that God is the cause of sin or evil.

But do you think he is not in control over sin and evil, disaster and calamity.🤔

Oh but if God is in control over everything and people do not have a choice, is must be God's fault if they sin

actually many Calvinists say exactly that but bypass their mechanism to think for themself (not that God would allow that, but) and so make God the creator of all evil

 

[phil36]

What is this reformed is not Calvinism business? Do y'all know what the reformation is? I think not.

Calvinism is actually called the 'reformed tradition' and stems from the 16th C. it is notable to mention that Calvin himself, baptized in the Catholic church as an infant, never spoke of his salvation through Christ, but referred to and believed in infant baptism and considered himself saved from that moment on, when as an infant with no choice in the matter, he was baptized...actually has his head only sprinkled. No wonder then he taught that we have no choice in our salvation.

Does scripture teach infant baptism? Does scripture state we do not need to confess Christ as our Savior?

No doubt, there are different flavors of the reformed now just as there are different flavors of any group. Some take the 5 points and water them down, some only believe 3 or 4 out of the 5 and then we have the 5 pointers who may even question a person's salvation if they are not Calvinist in their persuasion.

You can't get away from the fact that the word 'reformed' has attachments to Calvinism that may not be obvious, but are nonetheless present.

The reformed are Calvinistic, your stating the obvious 🤣😂.

And of course what you don't seem to realize that if it weren't for the reformers in the Reformation you would be still twiddling your rosemary beads and saying your hail Mary's.

I mean you do realize the difference between 'reformation and Reformed (obviously not).

Coming from the Reformation tradition you have Lutherans, reformed (calvinistic), anabaptist, baptist, Anglican and the list goes on and on.. Not quite as simple as that but you get the idea. From that reformation tradition comes these truths. And it's these truths that bind us together.

1. Sola Scriptura – By Scripture Alone

2. Sola Gratia – By Grace Alone

3. Solo Christo – By Christ Alone

4. Sola Fide – By Faith Alone

5. Soli Deo Grloria – Glory

So who are the reformed.

Baptists,
Presbyterians,
Independents,
Congregational,

So you argument about infant baptism doesn't even hold against reformed theology.

 

[phil36]

Oh but if God is in control over everything and people do not have a choice, is must be God's fault if they sin

Who says people do not have a choice.. Certainly not the reformed/calvinist whatever name you want to use. Men most definatly have a choice, and they use their 'wills' to make those choices.

Are you saying God is not in control of everything🤔. Because if man's choice can thwart God then you have made man king.. Pretty much believing the lie told in Eden.

I would say just be careful in trying to resolve what the bible doesn't give us an answer to. That is, how can we reconcile God's sovereignty and man's responsibility...

I'll give you a couple of examples.

Who wrote the book of Romans. Was it Paul, was It God.. Did God override Paul's word choice, or was Paul a robot🤔

Now I will make even harder. Read Isaiah 10. Who is will is doing what?

In verse 5ff God is using Assyria to punish a godless nation(cf 9:17 apostate Israel). God says 'I send him' and 'I command him' (v6).

The Assyria king boasts of what he has done, in his minds its done by his will (v8ff, esp v11). The Assyria King does not see God's intention only himself as king using hiw own 'will' that why God says "but he does not so intend" v7.

As scripture tells God uses evil for his own purposes (story of Joseph). God does not need man's Co operation, or their intention..

'Events unfold through human intentions but also, more deeply, through divine intention (cf. Luke 22:22; Acts 2:22-23; 4:26-28 ESV note on Isa 10:7)

The big problems come when we try and resolve how this works. That is God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility.

But one thing we do know is that every inclination and intention of man is wicked.. Its his nature. Its doesn't mean he can't do good things and it doesn't men he is as bad as he could be. But, all his choices are volitional and flow freely from who he naturally is.

Christ set us free from that bondage and this through the out ward call of the gospel and the inward working of the spirit.. Like Peters preaching in Acts 2..

Peter preaches (the living word) the men heard these words (Acts 2:37a), and the Spirit worked their heart (v37b) and only then they asked what do we néed to do v37c).. The response to that cut and renewed heart is repent and be baptised.

Again the outward call of the gospel is universal. It goes out to all. But the inward working of the Spirit is not on all.. Compare the reaction when Stephen preached the gospel..

The outward call - The men heard(v54) no renewing of the heart here.. They were enraged (v54).

Anyhow Polar, reformed Theology does not believe man is a robot with no choice, man makes volitional choices all the time.. But God is Sovereign and in control of all things all the time. How does that work.. I don't know and neither do you. The bible doesn't tell us.

Anyhow have a good evening.. Coffee time here ☕👍

Oh and excuse typos etc.. Im still not too good using my phone 🙃📱😂🤣

 

[ForestGreenCook]

FreeGrace2 said:
However, the Bible is clear that His will isn't irresistible. 1 Tim 2:3,4

I don't buy any of this stuff. You don't even explain what you mean by what you mean by "deliverance" anyway. And you quote verses that link BELIEVE in Christ for your "whatever" deliverance, when they are clearly about eternal soul salvation.

You already know that deliverance means salvation. You, also, have admitted that a child of God can be delivered (saved) here in time.

Most all of the scriptures that you throw at people who reject your interpretation of scriptures are those scriptures that depict timely deliverances that you are wrongly applying to eternal deliverances.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Show me any verse that speaks of "a spiritual faith". There aren't any.

I believe that you would agree that the Holy Spirit, is actually a spirit, yes? And I think that you would ,also, agree that FAITH is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22). If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, then I believe that it would be a SPIRITUAL FAITH.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

First, to clarify - When I say "Calvinism", I mean the likes of modern-day Calvinism, such as James White and the like, not Calvin himself. I'm not sure what HIS position was, but I think modern proponents of Calvinism have "gone further" than what he originally proposed. After listening to many debates with James White and the like, I can't believe these people don't believe that everything is God's will, even the thoughts, desires and actions of man.
I don't know if you've got evidence that I'm wrong - and I'm happy to read any such material if you'd care to send me or direct me to any.

I believe the scriptures to teach that God has given mankind the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, by the many scriptures where he tells us to make choices, but God did predetermine that those he choose before the foundation of the world would be adopted as his children. In the adoption process, the child has no choice in the adoption.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The reformed are Calvinistic, your stating the obvious 🤣😂.

And of course what you don't seem to realize that if it weren't for the reformers in the Reformation you would be still twiddling your rosemary beads and saying your hail Mary's.

I mean you do realize the difference between 'reformation and Reformed (obviously not).

Coming from the Reformation tradition you have Lutherans, reformed (calvinistic), anabaptist, baptist, Anglican and the list goes on and on.. Not quite as simple as that but you get the idea. From that reformation tradition comes these truths. And it's these truths that bind us together.

1. Sola Scriptura – By Scripture Alone

2. Sola Gratia – By Grace Alone

3. Solo Christo – By Christ Alone

4. Sola Fide – By Faith Alone

5. Soli Deo Grloria – Glory

So who are the reformed.

Baptists,
Presbyterians,
Independents,
Congregational,

So you argument about infant baptism doesn't even hold against reformed theology.

The church that Christ set up was never in the reformation. When Rome tried to wipe them out, they went underground, so to speak, this was called the dark ages. History tells us that they actually grew in number in the dark ages.

 

[phil36]

The church that Christ set up was never in the reformation. When Rome tried to wipe them out, they went underground, so to speak, this was called the dark ages. History tells us that they actually grew in number in the dark ages.

Interesting point of view.

Theres has never been a time when Christ's church was not. However, there have been plenty of times it has went astray, but there's faithful people even in that mix.

In the reformation the gospel and scriptural authority were brought back to the fore. The church always needs to keep reforming.. Keep the gospel and scriptural authority at the fore.

Your church history is certainly novel.

So for appr. 500 years up to around say 1000ad (early medieval) there was an underground church which Rome tried to wipe out. Who where they, did they leave behind any writings,?

What happened after the early medieval period.. Who where they for 500 years before the Reformation? 1000ad to 1500ad (very rough overall years).

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
However, the Bible is clear that His will isn't irresistible. 1 Tim 2:3,4

I don't buy any of this stuff. You don't even explain what you mean by what you mean by "deliverance" anyway. And you quote verses that link BELIEVE in Christ for your "whatever" deliverance, when they are clearly about eternal soul salvation.

You already know that deliverance means salvation.

When "belief" is in verses with "salvation", it isn't referring to temporal deliverance at all.

You, also, have admitted that a child of God can be delivered (saved) here in time.

Right. That's God's business whether to save someone from temporal danger or not. Many many believers have died at the hands of criminals. Were they "saved" from being murdered? No. So you have to have the discernment about how to understand the word, which it seems you do not.

Most all of the scriptures that you throw at people who reject your interpretation of scriptures are those scriptures that depict timely deliverances that you are wrongly applying to eternal deliverances.

You are quite wrong. The verses that I "throw" (really??) at people are verses with "believe" in them.

What are people supposed to believe in order to avoid temporal dangers anyway? You have any idea?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Show me any verse that speaks of "a spiritual faith". There aren't any.

I believe that you would agree that the Holy Spirit, is actually a spirit, yes?

Let's not deflect, ok?

And I think that you would ,also, agree that FAITH is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22).

All you are trying to do is conflate various verses.

If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, then I believe that it would be a SPIRITUAL FAITH.

Your claim doesn't make it so. Faith in the eternal salvation sense is a trust issue, not a spiritual issue.

The believer's day to day walk by trusting that God will provide for his/her needs is STILL a trust issue.

You have not proven from Scripture that there is such a thing as a "spiritual faith". You are just making up terms to suit your own fancy, just like Calvinists who make up phony terms like "dead faith = no faith".

 

[Polar]

Who says people do not have a choice.. Certainly not the reformed/calvinist whatever name you want to use. Men most definatly have a choice, and they use their 'wills' to make those choices.

Are you saying God is not in control of everything🤔. Because if man's choice can thwart God then you have made man king.. Pretty much believing the lie told in Eden.

I would say just be careful in trying to resolve what the bible doesn't give us an answer to. That is, how can we reconcile God's sovereignty and man's responsibility...

I'll give you a couple of examples.

Who wrote the book of Romans. Was it Paul, was It God.. Did God override Paul's word choice, or was Paul a robot🤔

Now I will make even harder. Read Isaiah 10. Who is will is doing what?

In verse 5ff God is using Assyria to punish a godless nation(cf 9:17 apostate Israel). God says 'I send him' and 'I command him' (v6).

The Assyria king boasts of what he has done, in his minds its done by his will (v8ff, esp v11). The Assyria King does not see God's intention only himself as king using hiw own 'will' that why God says "but he does not so intend" v7.

As scripture tells God uses evil for his own purposes (story of Joseph). God does not need man's Co operation, or their intention..

'Events unfold through human intentions but also, more deeply, through divine intention (cf. Luke 22:22; Acts 2:22-23; 4:26-28 ESV note on Isa 10:7)

The big problems come when we try and resolve how this works. That is God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility.

But one thing we do know is that every inclination and intention of man is wicked.. Its his nature. Its doesn't mean he can't do good things and it doesn't men he is as bad as he could be. But, all his choices are volitional and flow freely from who he naturally is.

Christ set us free from that bondage and this through the out ward call of the gospel and the inward working of the spirit.. Like Peters preaching in Acts 2..

Peter preaches (the living word) the men heard these words (Acts 2:37a), and the Spirit worked their heart (v37b) and only then they asked what do we néed to do v37c).. The response to that cut and renewed heart is repent and be baptised.

Again the outward call of the gospel is universal. It goes out to all. But the inward working of the Spirit is not on all.. Compare the reaction when Stephen preached the gospel..

The outward call - The men heard(v54) no renewing of the heart here.. They were enraged (v54).

Anyhow Polar, reformed Theology does not believe man is a robot with no choice, man makes volitional choices all the time.. But God is Sovereign and in control of all things all the time. How does that work.. I don't know and neither do you. The bible doesn't tell us.

Anyhow have a good evening.. Coffee time here ☕👍

Oh and excuse typos etc.. Im still not too good using my phone 🙃📱😂🤣

one question. do you believe we have a choice in accepting Christ or do you believe we have no choice? kindly answer that and everything else falls into place

and excuse typos etc.. Im still not too good using my phone 🙃📱😂🤣

no worries

 

[Polar]

Interesting point of view.

Theres has never been a time when Christ's church was not. However, there have been plenty of times it has went astray, but there's faithful people even in that mix.

In the reformation the gospel and scriptural authority were brought back to the fore. The church always needs to keep reforming.. Keep the gospel and scriptural authority at the fore.

Your church history is certainly novel.

So for appr. 500 years up to around say 1000ad (early medieval) there was an underground church which Rome tried to wipe out. Who where they, did they leave behind any writings,?

What happened after the early medieval period.. Who where they for 500 years before the Reformation? 1000ad to 1500ad (very rough overall years).

re your tagline: Matthew Henry was a Calvinist.

 

[Polar]

I mean you do realize the difference between 'reformation and Reformed (obviously not).

you are sounding more and more like a true Calvinist. Insult away. I would agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

 

[Polar]

So you argument about infant baptism doesn't even hold against reformed theology.

what argument?

Apparently you do not know very much about your patron saint, aka Calvin the murderous

 

[Polar]

Coming from the Reformation tradition you have Lutherans, reformed (calvinistic), anabaptist, baptist, Anglican and the list goes on and on.. Not quite as simple as that but you get the idea. From that reformation tradition comes these truths. And it's these truths that bind us together.

Calvinism appeared at the end of Luther's life. Calvin never professed salvation through faith in Christ alone as did Luther. Hence, we have a god placing his spirit inside a person to MAKE them saved. Yet, the actual God, does no such thing

I don't think you know the actual history of how things happened.

 

[phil36]

one question. do you believe we have a choice in accepting Christ or do you believe we have no choice? kindly answer that and everything else falls into place



s

Hi Polar,

Yes we have a choice. We can hardly read the Gospels themselves without being confronted with a choice. When we here the good news we will either be like the men in Acts 2 and cut to the heart and ask.. What must I do? Or we will be like those in Acts 7 and our hearts will be hardened further than what they already are. The choice is still a real choice.

Hope that helps 🤔

 

[Polar]

Hi Polar,

Yes we have a choice. We can hardly read the Gospels themselves without being confronted with a choice. When we here the good news we will either be like the men in Acts 2 and cut to the heart and ask.. What must I do? Or we will be like those in Acts 7 and our hearts will be hardened further than what they already are. The choice is still a real choice.

Hope that helps 🤔

Actual Calvinists do not believe we have a choice.

So perhaps Calvin is not your patron saint? that would be good

however I am left wondering why you then ask if people do not believe God to be severing? Understand that is actually a pet question of Calvinists when trying to prove their interpretation

however, the reformed view, which you do seem to espouse, does come from Calvin it would seem
'
as I stated some posts back, there are different flavors of Calvinism

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Interesting point of view.

Theres has never been a time when Christ's church was not. However, there have been plenty of times it has went astray, but there's faithful people even in that mix.

In the reformation the gospel and scriptural authority were brought back to the fore. The church always needs to keep reforming.. Keep the gospel and scriptural authority at the fore.

Your church history is certainly novel.

So for appr. 500 years up to around say 1000ad (early medieval) there was an underground church which Rome tried to wipe out. Who where they, did they leave behind any writings,?

What happened after the early medieval period.. Who where they for 500 years before the Reformation? 1000ad to 1500ad (very rough overall years).

I am sorry, but I can not find that particular book of church history right now, but it was a small paperback book, andI think it was titled "Trail of tears" or "trail of blood". I will keep looking for it. It did have a lifeline graft with dates attached. I hope I can find it to give you further information.

 

[phil36]

Calvinism appeared at the end of Luther's life. Calvin never professed salvation through faith in Christ alone as did Luther. Hence, we have a god placing his spirit inside a person to MAKE them saved. Yet, the actual God, does no such thing

I don't think you know the actual history of how things happened.

Calvinism appeared at the end of Luther's life. Calvin never professed salvation through faith in Christ alone as did Luther. Hence, we have a god placing his spirit inside a person to MAKE them saved. Yet, the actual God, does no such thing

I don't think you know the actual history of how things happened.

Yes I know, Luther was 26 years Calvin's senior.

And that's a novel view regarding Calvins view on faith. What did he say?