Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Don't be so quick to assume a position on the accuracy of translations until after you have learned ancient Hebrew.

The verse is not hard to translate. If you understand the ancient Hebrew.
...

I assumed nothing. I gave the translation in English from the King James Bible, whose translators are plenty qualified in Ancient Hebrew, as may be demonstrated easily:

"The first Cambridge Company: 1st Chronicles - Ecclesiastes

1. Edward Lively, 1545 - 1605: Dr. Lively was Regius Professor of Hebrew at Cambridge, 1575; prebendary at Peterborough, 1602 and rector of Purleigh in 1604.

a. It is said that no man living exceeded his knowledge of the oriental languages. In fact, it was said of him, “one of the best linguists in the world...Much dependence was placed on his surpassing skill in Oriental languages.”43

b. Dr. Lively died in the beginning of May 1605, and it is said that his death was hastened by the great effort he put into the infant translation. In 1588 he published a work entitled, Annotationes in quinque priores ex Minoribus Prophetis, cum Latina eorum interpretatione ad normam Hebraica veritatis; and in 1597, True Chronologie of the Times of the Persian Monarchie, &c.

2. John Richardson, 15?? - 1625: Dr. Richardson was; fellow of Emmanuel College, Cambridge,1585; Regius Professor of Divinity, 1607; Master of Peterhouse, 1609 and then Master of Trinity College.

3. Lawrence Chaderton, 1537 - 1640: Dr. Chaderton was; fellow of Christ’s College, 1568; and afterwards first Master of Emmanuel College from 1584 to 1622.

a. Dr. Chaderton was raised a Roman Catholic and encouraged by his family to become a lawyer. He traveled to London, where he was converted to Christ and joined the Puritan Congregation there.44 He was disinherited due to his conversion to Christ. It is said that,

b. “He made himself familiar with the Latin, Greek, and Hebrew tongues and was thoroughly skilled in them. Moreover he had diligently investigated the numerous writings of the Rabbis, so far as they seemed to promise any aid to the understanding of the Scriptures.”45

c. Like his fellow translators, Dr. Chaderton’s contribution to the cause of Christ was not restricted to the intellectual realm. He was a powerful preacher who lived to the age of one hundred and three. Congregations never tired of hearing the scriptural offerings of this great soldier. A preaching engagement in his later years was described as follows:

1) “Having addressed his audience for two full hours by the glass, he paused and said, ‘I will no longer trespass on your patience.’ And now comes the marvel; for the whole congregation cried out with one consent, ‘For God’s sake, go on!’ He accordingly proceeded much longer, to their great satisfaction and delight.”46

4. Francis Dillingham, 15?? - 16??: Dr. Dillingham was fellow of Christ College; parson of Dean and also of Wilden in Bedfordshire and author of several theological treatises. Dr. Dillingham was so studied in the original languages that he participated in public debate in Greek.47

a. “He collected out of Cardinal Bellarmine’s writings, all the concessions made by the acute author in favor of Protestantism. He published a Manual of Christian Faith, taken from the Fathers, and a variety of treatises on different points belonging to the Romish controversy.”48

5. Thomas Harrison, 1555 - 1631: Dr. Harrison was the Vice-Master of Trinity College. He was a fervent Puritan. Dr. Harrison, it is recorded, was chosen to assist the King James translation due to his knowledge of Greek and Hebrew. In fact, his ability served him well in his duties as Vice-Master of Trinity College in Cambridge.

a. “On account of his exquisite skill in the Hebrew and Greek idioms, he was one of the chief examiners in the University of those who sought to be public professors of these languages.”49

6. Roger Andrews, 15?? - 16??: Dr. Andrews was the brother of Bishop Lancelot Andrews. He was fellow of Pembroke Hall; prebendary, archdeacon and chancellor of Chichester and Southwell, 1606-07; prebendary of Ely and afterwards Doctor of Divinity, and then Master of Jesus College, 1618.

7. Robert Spalding, 15?? - 16??: Dr. Spaulding was fellow of St. John’s College and Regius Professor of Hebrew, in Cambridge, 1605.

8. Andrew Byng, 1574 - 1652: Dr. Byng was fellow of Peterhouse and then Regius Professor of Hebrew, in Cambridge in 1608, after Dr. Spalding. He was also Archdeacon of Norwich.

Some of the very 'rules' (guidelines) that these actual translators were 'under' were:

8. Every particular Man of each Company, to take the same Chapter or Chapters, and having translated or amended them severally by himself, where he thinketh good, all to meet together, confer what they have done, and agree for their Parts what shall stand.

9. As any one Company hath dispatched any one Book in this Manner they shall send it to the rest, to be considered of seriously and judiciously, for His Majesty is very careful in this Point.

10. If any Company, upon the Review of the Book so sent, doubt or differ upon any Place, to send them Word thereof; note the Place, and withal send the Reasons, to which if they consent not, the Difference to be compounded at the general Meeting, which is to be of the chief Persons of each Company, at the end of the Work.

11. When any Place of special Obscurity is doubted of, Letters to be directed by Authority, to send to any Learned Man in the Land, for his Judgement of such a Place.

12. Letters to be sent from every Bishop to the rest of his Clergy, admonishing them of this Translation in hand; and to move and charge as many skilful in the Tongues; and having taken pains in that kind, to send his particular Observations to the Company, either at Westminster, Cambridge, or Oxford.

13. The Directors in each Company, to be the Deans of Westminster, and Chester for that Place; and the King’s Professors in the Hebrew or Greek in either University.

15. Besides the said Directors before mentioned, three or four of the most Ancient and Grave Divines, in either of the Universities, not employed in Translating, to be assigned by the vice-Chancellor, upon Conference with the rest of the Heads, to be Overseers of the Translations as well Hebrew as Greek, for the better observation of the 4th Rule above specified.
This protected the actual translation work, since it had to be reviewed at least 14 times, and then with several final reviews by the final editors.

I also gave the translation from 3 Hebrew/Jewish websites, of which I am not affiliated with.

So, they all found, as I have, that the text was not hard to translate correctly at all, and each of those 4 gave an accurate translation of the "ancient Hebrew".

Your 'translation' was, and is presently, simply in error, to justify an a priori position without foundation in scripture (Isaiah 8:20).

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Great Volumes of commentaries exist ...

Isaiah 8:20. Yes, they do 'exist', and having read many, they all disagree with one another. Now, since that is the case, to what 'final authority' do we all turn to find the truth (John 17:17)?

 

[justbyfaith]

Proverbs 28:4. Also, how can you cease, when you have not considered. Proverbs 19:27 is in the context of one who considers first and second, Titus 3:10; Matthew 18:16. Simply saying one is "not interested" is not fulfilling Proverbs 19:27 properly, especially when the opposing view is not considered carefully as presented (I am speaking from my own presented evidence, not others you already considered, as I am not them; for you cannot say you have considered me, by having considered them).

Still not interested. I believe based on my own understanding of scripture that your point of view is false and that therefore it would only be a waste of time for me to look at all of the information that you have to present; for it will not change my point of view.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You have already proven to be ineffective at proper hermeneutics so I am sure that your next "truth bomb" will be just another case of more of the same weak and biblically ignorant (tainted by your presuppositions taught by previous cult teachers in your movement) approach to exegesis. (ramblings about pagans and such like)

Why do you spell "irrefutable" as "i-n-e-f-f-e-c-t-i-v-e"?

To keep it simple for you I will end what promises to be a long winded discussion where you attempt to shoehorn a thought in Paul's mind he did not intend by cutting straight to the statement that he made that is conclusive;

Romans 14: 7For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

This statement does nothing to establish the dead are alive and conscious. The term "dead in Christ" means "those who died believing in Christ", period.

(Your idea that He is Lord of a spirit that no longer exists is a direct contradiction to the wisdom that Jesus used to speak to the Pharisees to tell them that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were Living, since God is not a God of the dead, (their own teaching that the dead no longer existed, similar to the SDA theology)

No, your idea that "God of the living" means "Oh, the dead are dead alright...but not surely" as the Serpent said - is borrowed from Catholicism which got if from paganism, and Tyndale rebuked Catholic Sir Thomas Moore for using the verse in the same manner you do, saying you both "stealeth Christ's argument wherewith He proveth the resurrection". That's right...you're stealing Christ's argument that the dead will rise in the resurrection and lending it as "evidence" to the pagan lie preached by Catholic Sir Thomas Moore that the dead are dead, but not surely.

And Phil 1:20
I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.

I see you continue to ignore "naked" and "unclothed". Fair enough, do what you must to twist Paul's preferential statement "and present with the Lord" into the nonexistent either/or statement "is to be present with the Lord". If misquoting the Bible were a crime, you'd be guilty of "Negligent Homoleticide".

By these two passages it is obvious to the average reader that Paul taught believers to have an expectation of being with Christ if killed by the Romans for their faith. Since he taught this way, then we must also.

Of course we are to have such an expectation...in the resurrection, not at the time of death

If Paul thought that believers slept until the resurrection he did not consider it important to the concept of being in one or two states. 1) Alive = on this mission to spread the Gospel, and 2) Dead (asleep) = With Christ.

Once again, you illegitimately demand there are only TWO options - either clothed in the earthly body or the resurrection body - and totally disregard the third option: lying naked in the grave awaiting the resurrection without a body. One wonders how you all can be so confused as to claim that at death we go to be with Jesus in our resurrection bodies, but when asked "for what purpose, then, is the resurrection?" you all claim, "Oh, that's when we come back to get our resurrection bodies". Which is it? Do we get our resurrection bodies at death or in the resurreciton at the end of time?

Their bodies sleeping until the resurrection does not mean that they have no spiritual body.

Oh, so Paul in 2 Cor. 5 forgot to mention this "third" category of body called "spiritual body"? Like I said, y'all make it up as you go.

Moses and Elijah were not resurrected yet and they had a visible substance that John, James and Peter could see for a period of time in which they were speaking with Jesus on the Mount. This transfiguration event is proof enough to most people that we will enter into some kind of existence before the resurrection just as Moses.

What are you talking about? Elijah didn't have to wait until the resurrection to receive his resurrection body because he, being translated, was not subject to the resurrection --- and since the dead "have nothing to do anymore with anything that is done under the sun", when Moses appeared to Jesus "under the sun" he could not but have been very much alive. I guess you forgot that Satan opposed Michael concerning Moses' body, before Michael shut him down with a rebuke followed by Moses, obviously, being raised from the dead. How callously you Immortal Soul crowd folks just brush away what the wisest man in the world said about the dead "having nothing to do with anything under the sun" and what Job said about "he shall return no more to his house" - as if these ancient inspired prophets are in need of instruction from 21st century pseudo-scholars.

But much of this is a mystery to us still and we only have been given enough information to have hope and expectation.

Only a mystery to those who refuse to read the Bible with their eyes open. Solomon, Job, David, etc. all tell you plainly the dead know nothing, see nothing, hear nothing, feel nothing, plan nothing, remember nothing, appear to no one, and praise not God at all...but keep stopping your ears, shutting your eyes, and claiming "it's a mystery!!!"

The problem with SDA and others like them is that they try and teach things they can not know yet as if they were expert on the details. And they are too proud to recognize that they could be wrong about their assumptions and suspect interpretations and therefore guilt of spending too much time building on the wrong foundation wood, hay, and stubble.

Have you any idea how many of the great Reformers taught the same thing we SDAs teach about death? You ever heard of Luther? How about Tyndale? These guys lived HUNDREDS of years before the first SDA. But, I understand why you have to resort to a "guilty by association" defense - you haven't a single theological leg to stand on. YOU STILL HAVE YET TO OFFER ANY EXPLANATION FOR WHAT PAUL WAS REFERRING TO BY "NAKED" AND "UNCLOTHED", RIGHT OR WRONG?

I don't expect to change your mind with these limited posts but maybe the discussion will help push back the darkness that threatens the weaker minds.

Let's be clear: people are waking up to this "Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment" garbage. They're reading "God alone hath immortality" and "to them who seek immortality" will be granted it, and turning from your false ideas about "innate immortality". "The Soul that sinneth, it shall die."

 

[Phoneman-777]

Not interested.

So, what did Paul mean by us Christians not wanting to be found "naked" and "unclothed" in 2 Corinthians 5?

It's too bad you guys weren't around to tell Paul, "Hey, who cares if we're naked? We're going up to heaven to be with Jesus whether naked or clothed, podna!"

Wait....there actually were people around in Paul's day who taught the same things you Immortal Soul guys teach about death...we call them "pagans".

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Why do you spell "irrefutable" as "i-n-e-f-f-e-c-t-i-v-e"?
This statement does nothing to establish the dead are alive and conscious. The term "dead in Christ" means "those who died believing in Christ", period.
No, your idea that "God of the living" means "Oh, the dead are dead alright...but not surely" as the Serpent said - is borrowed from Catholicism which got if from paganism, and Tyndale rebuked Catholic Sir Thomas Moore for using the verse in the same manner you do, saying you both "stealeth Christ's argument wherewith He proveth the resurrection". That's right...you're stealing Christ's argument that the dead will rise in the resurrection and lending it as "evidence" to the pagan lie preached by Catholic Sir Thomas Moore that the dead are dead, but not surely.
I see you continue to ignore "naked" and "unclothed". Fair enough, do what you must to twist Paul's preferential statement "and present with the Lord" into the nonexistent either/or statement "is to be present with the Lord". If misquoting the Bible were a crime, you'd be guilty of "Negligent Homoleticide".
Of course we are to have such an expectation...in the resurrection, not at the time of death
Once again, you illegitimately demand there are only TWO options - either clothed in the earthly body or the resurrection body - and totally disregard the third option: lying naked in the grave awaiting the resurrection without a body. One wonders how you all can be so confused as to claim that at death we go to be with Jesus in our resurrection bodies, but when asked "for what purpose, then, is the resurrection?" you all claim, "Oh, that's when we come back to get our resurrection bodies". Which is it? Do we get our resurrection bodies at death or in the resurreciton at the end of time?
Oh, so Paul in 2 Cor. 5 forgot to mention this "third" category of body called "spiritual body"? Like I said, y'all make it up as you go.
What are you talking about? Elijah didn't have to wait until the resurrection to receive his resurrection body because he, being translated, was not subject to the resurrection --- and since the dead "have nothing to do anymore with anything that is done under the sun", when Moses appeared to Jesus "under the sun" he could not but have been very much alive. I guess you forgot that Satan opposed Michael concerning Moses' body, before Michael shut him down with a rebuke followed by Moses, obviously, being raised from the dead. How callously you Immortal Soul crowd folks just brush away what the wisest man in the world said about the dead "having nothing to do with anything under the sun" and what Job said about "he shall return no more to his house" - as if these ancient inspired prophets are in need of instruction from 21st century pseudo-scholars.
Only a mystery to those who refuse to read the Bible with their eyes open. Solomon, Job, David, etc. all tell you plainly the dead know nothing, see nothing, hear nothing, feel nothing, plan nothing, remember nothing, appear to no one, and praise not God at all...but keep stopping your ears, shutting your eyes, and claiming "it's a mystery!!!"
Have you any idea how many of the great Reformers taught the same thing we SDAs teach about death? You ever heard of Luther? How about Tyndale? These guys lived HUNDREDS of years before the first SDA. But, I understand why you have to resort to a "guilty by association" defense - you haven't a single theological leg to stand on. YOU STILL HAVE YET TO OFFER ANY EXPLANATION FOR WHAT PAUL WAS REFERRING TO BY "NAKED" AND "UNCLOTHED", RIGHT OR WRONG?
Let's be clear: people are waking up to this "Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment" garbage. They're reading "God alone hath immortality" and "to them who seek immortality" will be granted it, and turning from your false ideas about "innate immortality". "The Soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Try this one verse:

Col 3:4: "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Still not interested. I believe based on my own understanding of scripture that your point of view is false and that therefore it would only be a waste of time for me to look at all of the information that you have to present; for it will not change my point of view.

Then how can you hope to seek to 'inform' me of what you define as the correct position, without at least addressing my concerns about your position as given?

 

[posthuman]

Try this one verse:

Col 3:4: "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God
(Colossians 3:3)
​

therefore the only way i will ever cease to exist is if God ceases to exist

 

[TheLearner]

You mean this verse:

Ecclesiastes 4:2 KJB - Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.

Ecclesiastes 4:2 HOT וְשַׁבֵּחַ אֲנִי אֶת־הַמֵּתִים שֶׁכְּבָר מֵתוּ מִן־הַחַיִּים אֲשֶׁר הֵמָּה חַיִּים עֲדֶֽנָה׃

Ecclesiastes 4:2 HOT transliterated w'shaBëªch ániy et-haMëtiym sheK'vär mëtû min-hachaYiym ásher hëMäh chaYiym ádenäh

Three translations by Jews:

Ecclesiastes 4:2 (Sefaria): Then I accounted those who died long since more fortunate than those who are still living;

Ecclesiastes 4:2 (Chabad): And I praise the dead who have already died, more than the living who are still alive.

Ecclesiastes 4:2 (Mechon-Mamre): Wherefore I praised the dead that are already dead more than the living that are yet alive;

Some 'translations' have built in error like the one that Amanuensis cited. in other words, Amanuensis' 'translation is incorporating on purpose, immortal soul theology' when there is no justification in the Hebrew to do so.

Even using the one that Amanuensis provided, compare to Matthew 8:22; Luke 9:60. Therefore, there are 'living dead', real life 'zombies' (no, not hollywood, speaking scripturally, those that are yet physically alive and yet dead in trespasses and in sins, thinking they are happy that way).

Don't be so quick to assume your position just because someone posts something you already were looking for.

That must have been the text and I misread it while tired.

A Psalm of David. A song at the dedication of the temple.
30 I will extol you, O Lord, for you have drawn me up
and have not let my foes rejoice over me.
2 O Lord my God, I cried to you for help,
and you have healed me.
3 O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol;
you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit.[a]

4 Sing praises to the Lord, O you his saints,
and give thanks to his holy name.
5 For his anger is but for a moment,
and his favor is for a lifetime.
Weeping may tarry for the night,
but joy comes with the morning.

Isaiah 14 does show the dead having emotions.

Ecclesiastes 4:2 (GNT) I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive.

Why are the dead better off?

 

[TheLearner]

Perhaps you might consider an historical approach?

Historical annihilationism and soul sleepism, from the earliest times to the present, in all Christian thought and theology.

State Of The Dead & Annihilation Hellfire Non SDA Quotes : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

What about these?

Doctrine - The Soul Sleepers - Chapter 4 The Major Seventeenth Century Advocates

Doctrine - Emmanuel Petavel Olliff - The Problem Of Immortality

Doctrine - Charles L Ives - The Bible Doctrine Of The Soul An Answer To The Question

Doctrine - Albert C. Johnson - Conditional Immortality

Doctrine - A Debate On The State Of The Dead - Nathaniel Field Vs Thomas P Connelly

Doctrine - Henry Grew (Baptist) - State Of The Dead &c Owned By Joseph Frisbie, With His Personal Markings

Stephen Bohr - Secrets Unsealed - State Of The Dead & Hellfire Sermons

Christian Mortalism From Tyndale To Milton By Norman T. Burns

Doctrine - William Tyndale - Tyndales Answer To Sir Thomas More

Doctrine - Wenham John - The Case For Conditional Immortality

Doctrine - Vladimir Baranozv - Sleep Of The Soul [18177565 Scrinium] “Angels In The Guise Of Saints” A Syrian Tradition In Constantinople

Doctrine - Life And Immortality By Basil Atkinson

Doctrine - Glenn A Peoples - Soul Sleep - Rethinking Hell Chapter 2

Doctrine - Dirk Krausmuller - Soul Sleep - [18177565 Scrinium] Christian Platonism And The Debate About Afterlife

Doctrine - Christopher M Date - Soul Sleep - 18. MJTM. 69 92 Date

Doctrine - Richard Whately - A View Of The Scripture Revelations Concerning A Future State

Doctrine - H H Dobney & John Milton - The Scripture Doctrine Of Future Punishment An Argument

Doctrine - George Storrs - An Inquiry Are The Wicked Immortal In Six Sermons Also Have The Dead Knowledge Which Is Prefixed An Extract On The Second Death By Archbishop Whately

SDA - D M Canright - A History Of The Doctrine Of The Soul Among All Races And Peoples, Ancient And Modern...; Carefully Brought Down To The Present Time

Doctrine - The State Of The Dead - John Milton (Paradise Lost)

Doctrine - F. Gavin - The Sleep Of The Soul In The Early Syriac Church

Doctrine - Bryan W. Ball - Sixteenth Century Continental Conditionalists

Doctrine - Aphrahat By J. Edward Walters - Sleep Of The Soul And Resurrection Of The Body

Hell & Mr Fudge - Edward Fudge

Doctrine - Death - LeRoy Edwin Froom - The Conditionalist Faith Of Our Fathers Volume 02

Doctrine - Death - LeRoy Edwin Froom - The Conditionalist Faith Of Our Fathers Volume 01

Secrets Unsealed - Stephen Bohr - Misunderstood Texts On The State Of The Dead : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

In Doctrine - Emmanuel Petavel Olliff - The Problem Of Immortality link, this chapter is missing: Why is that?

IX. IMMORTALITY ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE ; DECLARATIONS CONTAINED IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS - - 457

https://ia601802.us.archive.org/17/...tavel-Olliff - The Problem Of Immortality.pdf

 

[TheLearner]

quote:

"Without a doubt the human soul is immortal. This is clearly seen in many Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments: Psalm 22:26; 23:6; 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Daniel 12:2-3; Matthew 25:46; and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. Daniel 12:2 says, “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” Similarly, Jesus Himself said that the wicked “will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46). With the same Greek word used to refer to both “punishment” and “life,” it is clear that both the wicked and the righteous have an eternal/immortal soul. "
https://www.gotquestions.org/human-soul-mortal-immortal.html

 

[TheLearner]

Quote:
"
The New Testament writers present the idea of immortality with (1) the nouns aphtharsia [ajfqarsiva],"not-perishable, " "incorruptibility, " or "immortality" ( Rom 2:7 ; 1 Corinthians 15:42 1 Corinthians 15:50 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 ; Eph6:24 ; 2 Tim 1:10 );and athanasia [ajqanasiva],"no-death, " "deathlessness, " or "immortality" ( 1 Cor 15:53-54 ; 1 Tim 6:16 ); (2)the adjective aphthartos [a [fqarto"], "imperishable, " "incorruptible," "immortal" ( Rom 1:23 ; 1 Cor 9:25 ; 15:52 ; 1 Tim 1:17 ; 1 Peter 1:4 ); and (3) the phrase "eternal life" (lit., "life of the ages, " zoen aionion). All these terms, except the latter (which Paul uses elsewhere), occur in 1Corinthians 15. "Eternal life" is a favorite expression of John ( John 3:15 John 3:16 John 3:36 ; 10:28 ; 17:2-3 ; 1 John 1:2 ; 2:25 ; 1 John 5:11 1 John 5:13 1 John 5:20 )and is frequently used by Paul (e.g., Rom 2:7 ; 5:21 ; 6:22-23 ; Gal 6:8 ; 1 Tim 1:16 ; 6:12 ; 2 Tim 2:10 ; Titus 1:2 ; 3:7 ). Passages such as 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 refer or allude to the concept with metaphors. Immortality is a corollary to references to existence after death or to the resurrection in general.

Jesus assumes a continuing existence after death throughout his teachings. Certainly the future aspects of the kingdom of God imply as much. He speaks of it directly in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31 )and in the judgment scene of Matthew 25:31-46. To make "everlasting life"available is at the heart of Jesus' mission: "I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full" ( 10:10 ; cf. 5:40 ; 20:31 ). John 14:1-3assumes not only a continuing existence but also that for believers it will be with Jesus.

Peter says Christians have been given "new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade" ( 1 Peter 1:3-4 ).Later he states that this new birth is "not of perishable seed, but of imperishable" (v. 23). The judgment scenes of Revelation 20-22 display eternal life of bliss for believers and punishment for the rest.

It is Paul who gives the clearest explanations of immortality. It is a gift made available through the work of Christ ( Rom 2:7 ; 2 Tim 1:10 ), the lasting reward of the believer in contrast to the perishable wreath won by the athlete ( 1 Cor 9:25 ). At the same time Paul asserts that the wicked face continuing, conscious alienation from God and positive punishment ( 2Thess 1:9 ).

First Corinthians 15:35-57 contains the most lengthy discussion of immortality, but is actually only a corollary to Paul's affirmation of the resurrection. Here Paul clearly sets forth the fact of an incorruptible, permanent existence in contrast to our present condition. However, as the planted seed and the stalk that grows from it are both the same yet different, so the future spiritual-immortal body will be both a continuation of and different from the physical-mortal one.

Second Corinthians 5:1-10 affirms that the future, eternal, heavenly "house"is the present possession of believers ("we have, " v. 1). In spite of the present undesirable state, a mortal one in which "we groan" (vv. 2-4), the Spirit is "the guarantee" of the better one that awaits the believer (v. 5).Furthermore, Paul maintains that to be "away from the body" is to be "at home with the Lord" (v. 8). Similarly, Philippians 1:20-21 asserts that through the believer's union with Christ the future (immortal) life is a present possession. Philippians 2:10-21 has the same expectation of a changed or transformed body, by implication an immortal one, as the Corinthians correspondence. Indeed, Paul assumes that immortality as a permanent, incorruptible, never-ending state and life not only await the Christian after death but is actually the present possession of the believer."
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/immortality/

 

[TheLearner]

Genesis 2:7 ESV
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Daniel 12:2 ESV
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Philippians 1:23 ESV
I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

1 Corinthians 15:52-54 ESV
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

1 Corinthians 15:29 ESV
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

Acts 24:15 ESV
Having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Zechariah 12:1 ESV
The burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

Isaiah 26:19 ESV
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.

Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 ESV
They are afraid also of what is high, and terrors are in the way; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along, and desire fails, because man is going to his eternal home ???, and the mourners go about the streets— before the silver cord is snapped, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern, and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 ESV
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

"no more reward" ???? thus no eternal life. As It has been pointed out before Scripture is progressive in understanding. Solomon did not understand or know about the principles of Matthew 25:46.

 

[TheLearner]

I know of people who believed that the unsaved would be wiped out of existence after the judgement.
They became Christians by giving their life to Jesus. After that they lived a life of sinning because they did not believe in "eternal punishment" others taught them that "eternal punishment" was purification of them from their sins.

What advice would you give them? Myself I would point out, if you are wrong, you do not want to lose the bet and forfit Heaven with God.

 

[TheLearner]

A few texts to discuss.

GENESIS 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

2 SAMUEL 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

2 KINGS 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

One thing I agree with is, peoples nature is not immortal. It is our bodies that become immortal at the resurrection I cor 15.

 

[TheLearner]

Well, not that he was backslidden while writing it.

He was writing about his past history. I doubt that he was backslidden while writing it, but this is his testimony about his search for meaning in life and what he thought at those times he was trying to find purpose through, education, art, building, partying, drinking, sex, and then he keeps saying how in each of these episodes of excess like the drinking bouts, that his wisdom did not depart from him.

He started off with that supernatural gift of wisdom from God and when he was doing things he ought not like, sacrificing to the idols of his foreign wives his wisdom did not depart from him. He was amazed at that since some of the things he was doing would have led his smitten conscious to think that God would have taken back the gift of wisdom but instead it was always there screaming at him to repent to obey God.

And this is his testimony that when he decided to focus on obeying God he discovered the peace and joy in life that makes it worth living and also a sure revelation that both the wicked dead and the good would have all their secrets judged by God and rewarded accordingly IN THE AFTERLIFE.

But the SDA purposely miss that because they would have to give up their idol of SDA dogma and that will cost them. What's in their wallet? (@Phoneman-777 )

When he started writing it he was backslidden. We know this by his negative tone.

 

[TheLearner]

1 Samuel 28
New English Translation
The Witch of Endor
28 In those days the Philistines gathered their troops[a] for war in order to fight Israel. Achish said to David, “You should fully understand that you and your men must go with me into the battle.”[ b \] 2 David replied to Achish, “That being the case, you will come to know what your servant can do!” Achish said to David, “Then I will make you my bodyguard[c] from now on.”[d]

3 Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had lamented over him and had buried him in Ramah, his hometown.[e] In the meantime Saul had removed the mediums[f] and magicians[g] from the land. 4 The Philistines assembled; they came and camped at Shunem. Saul mustered all Israel and camped at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the camp of the Philistines, he was absolutely terrified.[h] 6 So Saul inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him—not by dreams nor by Urim nor by the prophets. 7 So Saul instructed his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium,[j] so that I may go to her and inquire of her.” His servants replied to him, “There is a woman who is a medium in Endor.”

8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothing and left, accompanied by two of his men. They came to the woman at night and said, “Use your ritual pit to conjure up for me the one I tell you.”[k]

9 But the woman said to him, “Look, you are aware of what Saul has done; he has removed[l] the mediums and magicians[m] from the land! Why are you trapping me[n] so you can put me to death?” 10 But Saul swore an oath to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not incur guilt in this matter!” 11 The woman replied, “Who is it that I should bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up for me Samuel.”

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out loudly.[o] The woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!” 13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid! But what have you seen?” The woman replied to Saul, “I have seen a divine being[p] coming up from the ground!” 14 He said to her, “What about his appearance?” She said, “An old man is coming up! He is wrapped in a robe!”

Then Saul realized it was Samuel, and he bowed his face toward the ground and kneeled down. 15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul replied, “I am terribly troubled! The Philistines are fighting against me and God has turned away from me. He does not answer me anymore—not by the prophets nor by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what I should do.”

16 Samuel said, “Why are you asking me, now that the Lord has turned away from you and has become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done exactly as I prophesied![q] The Lord has torn the kingdom from your hand and has given it to your neighbor David! 18 Since you did not obey the Lord[r] and did not carry out his fierce anger against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this thing to you today. 19 The Lord will hand you and Israel over to the Philistines! [0s ] Tomorrow both you and your sons will be with me.[t] The Lord will also hand the army[ u ] of Israel over to the Philistines!”

20 Saul quickly fell full length on the ground and was very afraid because of Samuel’s words. He was completely drained of energy,[v] having not eaten anything[w] all that day and night. 21 When the woman came to Saul and saw how terrified he was, she said to him, “Your servant has done what you asked.[x] I took my life into my own hands and did what you told me.[y] 22 Now it’s your turn to listen to your servant! Let me set before you a bit of bread so that you can eat. When you regain your strength, you can go on your way.”

23 But he refused, saying, “I won’t eat!” Both his servants and the woman urged[z] him to eat, so he gave in.[aa] He got up from the ground and sat down on the bed. 24 Now the woman[ab] had a well-fed calf[ac] at her home that she quickly slaughtered. Taking some flour, she kneaded it and baked bread without leaven. 25 She brought it to Saul and his servants, and they ate. Then they arose and left that same night.

Footnotes
1 Samuel 28:1 tn Heb “their camps.”
1 Samuel 28:1 tc The translation follows the LXX (εἰς πόλεμον, eis polemon) and a Qumran ms למלחמה (lammilkhamah, “for battle”) rather than the MT’s בַמַּחֲנֶה (bammakhaneh, “in the camp”; cf. NASB). While the MT reading is not impossible here, and although admittedly it is the harder reading, the variant fits the context better. The MT can be explained as a scribal error caused in part by the earlier occurrence of “camp” in this verse.
1 Samuel 28:2 tn Heb “the guardian for my head.”
1 Samuel 28:2 tn Heb “all the days.”
1 Samuel 28:3 tn Heb “in Ramah, even in his city.”
1 Samuel 28:3 tn The Hebrew term translated “mediums” actually refers to a pit used by a magician to conjure up underworld spirits (see 2 Kgs 21:6). In v. 7 the witch of Endor is called the owner of a ritual pit. See H. Hoffner, “Second Millennium Antecedents to the Hebrew ʾÔḆ,” JBL 86 (1967): 385-401. Here the term refers by metonymy to the owner of such a pit (see H. A. Hoffner, TDOT 1:133).
1 Samuel 28:3 sn See Isa 8:19 for another reference to magicians who attempted to conjure up underworld spirits.
1 Samuel 28:5 tn Heb “he was afraid, and his heart was very terrified.”
1 Samuel 28:6 sn See the note at 1 Sam 14:41.
1 Samuel 28:7 tn Heb “an owner of a ritual pit.” See the note at v. 3.
1 Samuel 28:8 tn Heb “Use divination for me with the ritual pit and bring up for me the one whom I say to you.”
1 Samuel 28:9 tn Heb “how he has cut off.”
1 Samuel 28:9 tn See the note at v. 3.
1 Samuel 28:9 tn Heb “my life.”
1 Samuel 28:12 tn Heb “in a great voice.”
1 Samuel 28:13 tn Heb “gods.” The modifying participle (translated “coming up”) is plural, suggesting that underworld spirits are the referent. But in the following verse Saul understands the plural word to refer to a singular being. The reference is to the spirit of Samuel.
1 Samuel 28:17 tn Heb “just as he said by my hand.”
1 Samuel 28:18 tn Heb “listen to the voice of the Lord.”
1 Samuel 28:19 tn Heb “And the Lord will give also Israel along with you into the hand of the Philistines.”
1 Samuel 28:19 tc With the exception of the Lucianic recension, the LXX has here “and tomorrow you and your sons with you will fall.”
1 Samuel 28:19 tn Heb “camp.”
1 Samuel 28:20 tn Heb “also there was no strength in him.”
1 Samuel 28:20 tn Heb “food.”
1 Samuel 28:21 tn Heb “listened to your voice.”
1 Samuel 28:21 tn Heb “listened to your words that you spoke to me.”
1 Samuel 28:23 tc The translation follows many medieval Hebrew mss in reading וַיִּפְצְרוּ (vayyiftseru, “and they pressed”; from the root פָּצַר, patsar) rather than the MT’s וַיִּפְרְצוּ (vayyifretsu, “and they broke forth”; from the root פָּרַץ, parats).
1 Samuel 28:23 tn Heb “he listened to their voice.”
1 Samuel 28:24 sn Masoretic mss of the Hebrew Bible mark this word as the half-way point in the book of Samuel, treating 1 and 2 Samuel as a single book. Similar notations are found at the midway point for all of the books of the Hebrew Bible.
1 Samuel 28:24 tn Heb “a calf of the stall.”
1 Samuel 27
1 Samuel 29
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[Phoneman-777]

Try this one verse:

Col 3:4: "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

I can't understand how people can draw such asinine conclusions as "at death, we go to straight to heaven with a 'spiritual body' and after a while we'll get our resurrection body in the resurrection" without a single shred of evidence to back up such nonsense. I mean, did Paul mention anything about a "spiritual body" in 2 Corinthians 5?

NO!

He only spoke of two kinds of bodies, the mortal body with which we are clothed now and the resurrection body with which we will be clothed then. Moreover, what about "naked" and "unclothed"? The Immortal Soul crowd cowardly runs from that part of 2 Corinthians 2 because it's key to properly interpreting "absent from the body and present with the Lord", and it's better to remain blissfully ignorant in false doctrine rather than swallow pride and admit they believed in satanic error. News flash: we ALL have fallen victim to some form of satanic error, which is precisely why the Holy Spirit was sent to "lead you and guide you into all truth" and it just stands to reason that if we're going to be led "into all truth", we must first be led "out of satanic error".

Paul told the Corinthians in his first letter we don't put on our immortal body until "the last trump" which is at the glorious appearing of Jesus, when we also will appear with Him in glory, as you pointed out. And yet, they will continue to deny God's Word that "ye shall surely die" and instead affirm the lie of Satan who said, "Ye shall not surely die...oh, you'll die alright...but not surely! You'll still be alive, either sitting in the smoking or non smoking section."

 

[Phoneman-777]

​

For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God​

(Colossians 3:3) ​

​

therefore the only way i will ever cease to exist is if God ceases to exist

News flash: Life and death are mutually exclusive concepts: you can't be dead and alive at the same time no more than a woman can be pregnant and not pregnant at the same time.

"Life hidden in Christ" refers to being dead in Christ and hidden away until we appear in glory when He appears in glory.

And, where did Job expect to be "hidden" after he died "until Thy wrath (of the 7 Last Plagues) be past" when God would "call" him forth and his "change would come" from mortal to immortality?
That's right...in the grave without a body, naked, unclothed, dead, awaiting the resurrection -- not up in heaven, as those who are as confused as you believe.

 

[Amanuensis]

I can't understand how people can draw such asinine conclusions as "at death, we go to straight to heaven with a 'spiritual body' and after a while we'll get our resurrection body in the resurrection" without a single shred of evidence to back up such nonsense. I mean, did Paul mention anything about a "spiritual body" in 2 Corinthians 5?

NO!

He only spoke of two kinds of bodies, the mortal body with which we are clothed now and the resurrection body with which we will be clothed then. Moreover, what about "naked" and "unclothed"? The Immortal Soul crowd cowardly runs from that part of 2 Corinthians 2 because it's key to properly interpreting "absent from the body and present with the Lord", and it's better to remain blissfully ignorant in false doctrine rather than swallow pride and admit they believed in satanic error. News flash: we ALL have fallen victim to some form of satanic error, which is precisely why the Holy Spirit was sent to "lead you and guide you into all truth" and it just stands to reason that if we're going to be led "into all truth", we must first be led "out of satanic error".

Paul told the Corinthians in his first letter we don't put on our immortal body until "the last trump" which is at the glorious appearing of Jesus, when we also will appear with Him in glory, as you pointed out. And yet, they will continue to deny God's Word that "ye shall surely die" and instead affirm the lie of Satan who said, "Ye shall not surely die...oh, you'll die alright...but not surely! You'll still be alive, either sitting in the smoking or non smoking section."

Nobody teaches what you claim. You are arguing with a phantom teacher, one that you invent and give words to.

You're "surely die" argument doesn't apply. Your use of it falls to the ground unanswered because no one is following your logic and the logical mind rejects your twisted attempt to force it.

The bible clearly teaches a resurrection of both the wicked and the righteous dead. We know that the wicked are resurrected but we know that they do not receive the same kind of glorified body. We don't have the answers to that. We just accept what the scripture says and wait for it to happen.

We know that there is a "being with Christ" when we die, and we know that there is a resurrection of the Body later and we know that we will ultimately be part of the New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven to the new earth. We don't understand how there are people who are resurrected, and reign with Christ a thousand years, and then the earth is destroyed and those people are then part of the New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven to the new earth but we believe it. Do they get translated from the old earth to the new jerusalem to the new earth? Who Knows and people are dumb to teach dogmatic theories about it and call everyone else false if they don't agree with their theories.

We don't know how we have a spiritual body while waiting the resurrection but we believe it anyway. I don't have to understand it. God can do it. If he can resurrect my body even if it is burned to ashes, he can give me a supernatural existence after I die that you can't explain.

I believe Paul includes the hope of some kind of a body after we die even before the resurrection. You don't see him saying that but I think he is saying exactly that. There is only one message here. We are in the body... and then we are with the Lord.

The best bible teacher will read the verses below without comment and let those that hear them understand these words as they are spoken. If they give people an expectation of being with the Lord when they die, then I think they have understood Paul clearly.

1For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.