Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!
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Well, says who? See? It seems you think anyone can just make up whatever they want when they come to a figure of speech.
When Jesus spoke about Lazarus He wasn't talking about his soul. He was describing the PERSON. Maybe you don't understand the difference. When Lazarus died, Jesus used the figure of speech that Lazarus was "sleeping". Did you not notice that Jesus NEVER mentioned his soul in John 11? So how could He mean "soul sleep" when Jesus then plainly said that Lazarus was dead?
If Jesus had meant Lazarus' spirit OR soul, He would have said so.
You'll have to ask God that because He didn't explain it in the Bible. What we do know is that the soul and spirit CAN be divided, per Heb 4:12.
When Jesus spoke about Lazarus He wasn't talking about his soul. He was describing the PERSON. Maybe you don't understand the difference. When Lazarus died, Jesus used the figure of speech that Lazarus was "sleeping". Did you not notice that Jesus NEVER mentioned his soul in John 11? So how could He mean "soul sleep" when Jesus then plainly said that Lazarus was dead?
If Jesus had meant Lazarus' spirit OR soul, He would have said so.
You'll have to ask God that because He didn't explain it in the Bible. What we do know is that the soul and spirit CAN be divided, per Heb 4:12.
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TheLearner said:
What glaring textual contradictions?
There seem to be at least 2 possibilities here.
1. you are correct and the Bible is textually contradicted.
2. God hasn't told us everything about how the soul/spirit exists before being resurrected.
I'm going with #2. I flatly reject #1.
What glaring textual contradictions?
There seem to be at least 2 possibilities here.
1. you are correct and the Bible is textually contradicted.
2. God hasn't told us everything about how the soul/spirit exists before being resurrected.
I'm going with #2. I flatly reject #1.
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FreeGrace2 said:
Look at the context for this verse. This time the word "dead" is a figure of speech for being out of fellowship with the Lord, through
carnal living. Paul was describing a believer. They cannot die spiritually. And since all men are born spiritually dead, they also can't die AGAIN spiritually.
Thanks for asking. I should have quoted the verse.
1 Tim 5-
1 Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers,
2 older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.
3 Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need.
4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.
5 The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help.
6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.
It should be clear from the context beginning in v.1 that Paul is talking about believers. So, in that context, v.6 is also talking about believers; but in this verse, a believing widow who "lives for pleasure". She is described as "dead even while she lives".
The Bible clearly teaches eternal security, so this cannot refer to loss of salvation, or a return to spiritual death again.
Consider Eph 4:30 (don't grieve the Holy Spirit) and 1 Thess 5:19 (don't quench the Holy Spirit). Believers who are out of fellowship through sin either grieve or quench the Spirit. Their fellowship with the Lord is said to be "dead".
This is illustrated in the vastly misunderstood parable of the idiot son, I mean, parable of the prodigal.
When he repented and confessed his sin to his father, fellowship was restored. Luke 15. Note how the father described the state of his son while being out of fellowship: lost, dead.
Hope this helps.
Look at the context for this verse. This time the word "dead" is a figure of speech for being out of fellowship with the Lord, through
carnal living. Paul was describing a believer. They cannot die spiritually. And since all men are born spiritually dead, they also can't die AGAIN spiritually.
Thanks for asking. I should have quoted the verse.
1 Tim 5-
1 Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers,
2 older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.
3 Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need.
4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.
5 The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help.
6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.
It should be clear from the context beginning in v.1 that Paul is talking about believers. So, in that context, v.6 is also talking about believers; but in this verse, a believing widow who "lives for pleasure". She is described as "dead even while she lives".
The Bible clearly teaches eternal security, so this cannot refer to loss of salvation, or a return to spiritual death again.
Consider Eph 4:30 (don't grieve the Holy Spirit) and 1 Thess 5:19 (don't quench the Holy Spirit). Believers who are out of fellowship through sin either grieve or quench the Spirit. Their fellowship with the Lord is said to be "dead".
This is illustrated in the vastly misunderstood parable of the idiot son, I mean, parable of the prodigal.
When he repented and confessed his sin to his father, fellowship was restored. Luke 15. Note how the father described the state of his son while being out of fellowship: lost, dead.
Hope this helps.
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Not everything, but we have some good info. There is obviously some form to the souls of the dead. That much is consistent in scripture. I feel like we have way more than enough scripture to know that the soul continues when the body dies.
And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
And when Jesus says
"Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
I think that tells us gives us a good explanation.
One so gifted can see spiritual things= and they have the appearance of having a body.
And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
And when Jesus says
"Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
I think that tells us gives us a good explanation.
One so gifted can see spiritual things= and they have the appearance of having a body.
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I can accept that Christians have missed Paul's words about "naked" and "unclothed". I constantly ask people what Paul's referring to by these words and they have no answer.
What I can't accept is stubborn refusal to abandon one's flawed position after choosing to remain willfully ignorant of the meaning of Paul's words after they've been shown his words can't be referring to a "naked lost spiritual condition" but can only be referring to the "intermediate state of lying naked and unclothed without a body in the grave awaiting the resurrection". But, alas, the problem with allowing the Holy Spirit to "guide you into all truth" means we have to be willing to be led out of error, right?
What I can't accept is stubborn refusal to abandon one's flawed position after choosing to remain willfully ignorant of the meaning of Paul's words after they've been shown his words can't be referring to a "naked lost spiritual condition" but can only be referring to the "intermediate state of lying naked and unclothed without a body in the grave awaiting the resurrection". But, alas, the problem with allowing the Holy Spirit to "guide you into all truth" means we have to be willing to be led out of error, right?
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Speed has zero to do with anything. What DOES have extreme impact is what "naked" and "unclothed" refers to, which you and the rest fail to address. Please don't come with "oh, that's talking about being naked lost spiritually" because that would mean Paul said, "we who are in this body of suffering groan for relief, but we don't want that relief to come by being lost..." Do you really thing Paul would say something so stupid? No, Paul is saying, "we don't want the relief to come by lying naked and unclothed without a body awaiting the resurrection -- we want to skip that intermediate state and go straight to heaven to be with Jesus".
You have to first acknowledge figures of speech before you can seek their understanding, and the reason why you are in error is because you, like most, refuse to confront the speech figures "naked" and "unclothed". You all just keep right on zipping past them as you read, not caring about what they mean or assigning illegitimate interpretations like "oh, he's talking about being in a naked, lost spiritual condition".
Once again, if you understood Genesis 2:7 KJV says souls only exist as a consequence of the union of the body and breath of life, you'd cease from this foolishness that the soul can continue to exist after the breath of life returns to God and the body to the dust. It's like saying when electric current is passed through a bulb and light begins to exist, that light keeps on existing after the electric current is switched off and removed from the bulb. There is ZERO evidence a soul continues to exist after a person dies.
You have to first acknowledge figures of speech before you can seek their understanding, and the reason why you are in error is because you, like most, refuse to confront the speech figures "naked" and "unclothed". You all just keep right on zipping past them as you read, not caring about what they mean or assigning illegitimate interpretations like "oh, he's talking about being in a naked, lost spiritual condition".
Once again, if you understood Genesis 2:7 KJV says souls only exist as a consequence of the union of the body and breath of life, you'd cease from this foolishness that the soul can continue to exist after the breath of life returns to God and the body to the dust. It's like saying when electric current is passed through a bulb and light begins to exist, that light keeps on existing after the electric current is switched off and removed from the bulb. There is ZERO evidence a soul continues to exist after a person dies.
Let's get something straight: it is you guys who by failing to see Luke 16:19-31 as a parable who introduce contradictions: you know full well there are only two kinds of bodies mentioned in Scripture, the "mortal body" in which we now live and the "resurrection body" we get at the resurrection. You even claim that when a person dies, his mortal body lies in the casket his "disembodied soul" goes burning in hell if he's lost or walking in heaven to await his new body at the resurrection if he's saved.
So, if Luke 16:19-31 KJV is a literal account of three dead men, why the flip does the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have body parts when the resurrection hasn't even happened yet?
You can't get any more Biblically contradictory than that, friend.
So, if Luke 16:19-31 KJV is a literal account of three dead men, why the flip does the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have body parts when the resurrection hasn't even happened yet?
You can't get any more Biblically contradictory than that, friend.
From: http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/new_testament_studies/VOL06/VOL06B_05.html
"naked" This word is often used in Greek literature for the preferred disembodied state at death (cf. Vincent, Word Studies, vol. 2, p. 822; Frank Stagg, New Testament Theology, pp.322-324; George E. Ladd, A Theology of the New Testament, pp. 552-554). The Greeks longed for this incipient release from the physical body, however, Christianity, like Judaism, asserts that we will always have a bodily expression (both believers and unbelievers, cf. Dan. 12:1-2; Matt. 25:46; John 5:28-29). Possibly Paul is again refuting the false teaching (i.e., incipient Gnosticism).
No need to obsess over naked souls.
"naked" This word is often used in Greek literature for the preferred disembodied state at death (cf. Vincent, Word Studies, vol. 2, p. 822; Frank Stagg, New Testament Theology, pp.322-324; George E. Ladd, A Theology of the New Testament, pp. 552-554). The Greeks longed for this incipient release from the physical body, however, Christianity, like Judaism, asserts that we will always have a bodily expression (both believers and unbelievers, cf. Dan. 12:1-2; Matt. 25:46; John 5:28-29). Possibly Paul is again refuting the false teaching (i.e., incipient Gnosticism).
No need to obsess over naked souls.
This is ridiculous. You are basically claiming that Jesus made up a totally fantastical unreal and phoney parable to make a point.
Yeah, really? Wrong. Jesus gave us a glimpse of the afterlife, in the OT, for both the saved and the lost. So obviously.
Jesus never used proper names in parables, and He never used real people in them either. You are the one who is contradicted.
Go complain to Jesus if you are so bothered.
So, go ahead and add that silliness to your complaint to Jesus.
It is YOUR view of things that are contradictory to the Bible. Did God reveal how souls look and are before the resurrection? No. So quit obsessing over what He didn't reveal.
What is clear is that souls have an appearance, without the "house" of the body.
Why is this such a big deal for you?
Yeah, really? Wrong. Jesus gave us a glimpse of the afterlife, in the OT, for both the saved and the lost. So obviously.
Jesus never used proper names in parables, and He never used real people in them either. You are the one who is contradicted.
Go complain to Jesus if you are so bothered.
So, go ahead and add that silliness to your complaint to Jesus.
It is YOUR view of things that are contradictory to the Bible. Did God reveal how souls look and are before the resurrection? No. So quit obsessing over what He didn't reveal.
What is clear is that souls have an appearance, without the "house" of the body.
Why is this such a big deal for you?
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With one's eyes tightly closed it would be easy to come to this absurd conclusion. John saw souls under the altar in Rev 6. But go ahead and ignore all of that. Go ahead and assume he was hallucinating.
King Saul attended a seance where Samuel showed up and the witch could see and describe him. But never mind all that. The Bible is just wrong there too.
Now, feel better yet?
So, let me ask this: when a person dies, what is left? And between physical death and the resurrection of BOTH the saved and the lost, if the soul ceases to exist, as you think, what is left to resurrect?
The Bible never speaks of souls being resurrected or reborn. I think you have a lot of contradition in your system.
King Saul attended a seance where Samuel showed up and the witch could see and describe him. But never mind all that. The Bible is just wrong there too.
Now, feel better yet?
So, let me ask this: when a person dies, what is left? And between physical death and the resurrection of BOTH the saved and the lost, if the soul ceases to exist, as you think, what is left to resurrect?
The Bible never speaks of souls being resurrected or reborn. I think you have a lot of contradition in your system.
Naked does not mean a lost spiritual condition. I never lead on in that direction. Naked as Paul used it means without a body. A body clothes the soul.
Btw, if one is soul sleeping in the grave, they aren’t naked. They have a dead corrupt body to clothe them. Your theology is flawed.
Btw, if one is soul sleeping in the grave, they aren’t naked. They have a dead corrupt body to clothe them. Your theology is flawed.
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I can see how easily this position can be accepted, since spirit and soul are so closely related...
I believe the state of the spirit ultimately determines the state of the soul.
The majority doesn't determine says who, but you determine whether you will follow the majority as into error. as an individual. So yeah, a lot of times "they" do. There seems to be a comfort in the consensus of the crowd but as the Christian philosopher Soren Kierkegaard once wisely observed, "The crowd is error."
I do see the soul and the PERSON are interchangeable terms of the thoughts, emotions, and all encompassing characteristics if an specific individual. Ecclesiastes muses on the death a souls, or persons. Even so, the phrase "Soul Sleep" triggers a sort of defense mechanism in people as if some hostile invasion is imminent. Maybe 'spirit sleep' would be a less threatening nomenclature for it, except when the subject includes speaking of the spiritually dead dead, of course. But in that case using the term 'soul' adequately remedies the inclusion of both the spiritually born and dead persons.
I believe the state of the spirit ultimately determines the state of the soul.
The majority doesn't determine says who, but you determine whether you will follow the majority as into error. as an individual. So yeah, a lot of times "they" do. There seems to be a comfort in the consensus of the crowd but as the Christian philosopher Soren Kierkegaard once wisely observed, "The crowd is error."
I do see the soul and the PERSON are interchangeable terms of the thoughts, emotions, and all encompassing characteristics if an specific individual. Ecclesiastes muses on the death a souls, or persons. Even so, the phrase "Soul Sleep" triggers a sort of defense mechanism in people as if some hostile invasion is imminent. Maybe 'spirit sleep' would be a less threatening nomenclature for it, except when the subject includes speaking of the spiritually dead dead, of course. But in that case using the term 'soul' adequately remedies the inclusion of both the spiritually born and dead persons.
Job 26:4-6
(spoken by Job)
To whom have you uttered these words? And whose spirit spoke through you?
The dead tremble—those beneath the waters and those who dwell in them.
Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.
Now, Job 27 in the KJV does say "Moreover Job continued his parable, and said..." However that word "parable" is also translated as "proverb". in other versions- and when you look at the entirety of what Job is saying in 27, the stuff he is saying is proverbial rather than parabolic teaching.
(spoken by Job)
To whom have you uttered these words? And whose spirit spoke through you?
The dead tremble—those beneath the waters and those who dwell in them.
Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.
Now, Job 27 in the KJV does say "Moreover Job continued his parable, and said..." However that word "parable" is also translated as "proverb". in other versions- and when you look at the entirety of what Job is saying in 27, the stuff he is saying is proverbial rather than parabolic teaching.
Job 26
Easy-to-Read Version
Job Answers Bildad
26 Then Job answered:
2 “Bildad, what a great help you are to this tired, weary man!
You have really supported me!
3 You have given such wonderful advice to this foolish man!
You have provided so much useful information![a]
4 Who helped you say these things?
Whose spirit inspired you to speak?
5 “The ghosts and their neighbors
in the underworld shake with fear.
6 But God can see clearly into that place of death.
Death is not hidden from God.
7 God stretched the northern sky over empty space.
He hung the earth on nothing.
8 He fills the thick clouds with water.
But he does not let its heavy weight break the clouds open.
9 He covers the face of the full moon.
He spreads his clouds over it and hides it.
10 He drew the horizon on the ocean,
like a circle where light and darkness meet.
11 The foundations that hold up the sky
shake with fear when God threatens them.
12 With his own power God calmed the sea.
With his wisdom he destroyed Rahab.
13 His breath made the skies clear.
His hand destroyed the snake that tried to get away.[d]
14 These are only a few of the amazing things God has done.
We hear only a small whisper of God’s thundering power.”
Footnotes
Job 26:3 Job is being sarcastic here—showing by the way he speaks that he does not really mean it.
Job 26:5 The ghosts … underworld Literally, “The ghosts under the water.” This refers to Sheol, the place of death.
Job 26:6 Death Or “Abaddon,” a Hebrew name meaning “death” or “destruction.” See Rev. 9:11.
Job 26:13 snake … get away Or “the escaping monster.” This might be another name for Rahab. See Isa. 27:1.
Job 25