If YESUAH says that the wicked is gather FIRST, WHY ARE some people looking for a rapture,??? Who does the say was taken in the flood.???
- Thread starter bud62
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Let me ask you this (since different ppl have different views as to "when" the "7th Trumpet" occurs),
--do you believe like some, that the "7th Trumpet" is at [/toward] the very END of the trib,
--or do you believe like others do, that the "7th Trumpet" is at MID-trib (when 1260 days are remaining till the end of the trib/His "Return" to the earth)
[for clarity: I believe (NEITHER ^ of those is the case, but that) the "5th Trumpet/1st Woe [unto the earth]" is at MID-trib (when there are 1260 days remaining till His RETURN to the earth/END of trib)... and that passages regarding THIS point in the chronology also mention "wrath" (that which WE are not "appointed unto" [1Th5:9-10] and which [1Th1:10] "the One delivering US out-from THE WRATH COMING" must also include [as this verse does not SPECIFY "only God's wrath" explicitly spelled-out])--so, for starters, that is at the very least involving (also) "MID-trib" in the chronology (that "wrath" pertains to)]
--do you believe like some, that the "7th Trumpet" is at [/toward] the very END of the trib,
--or do you believe like others do, that the "7th Trumpet" is at MID-trib (when 1260 days are remaining till the end of the trib/His "Return" to the earth)
[for clarity: I believe (NEITHER ^ of those is the case, but that) the "5th Trumpet/1st Woe [unto the earth]" is at MID-trib (when there are 1260 days remaining till His RETURN to the earth/END of trib)... and that passages regarding THIS point in the chronology also mention "wrath" (that which WE are not "appointed unto" [1Th5:9-10] and which [1Th1:10] "the One delivering US out-from THE WRATH COMING" must also include [as this verse does not SPECIFY "only God's wrath" explicitly spelled-out])--so, for starters, that is at the very least involving (also) "MID-trib" in the chronology (that "wrath" pertains to)]
Okay, thanks (I couldn't recall "which view" was yours, as ppl do differ on this point).
I assume you believe "our Rapture" takes place at that "7th Trumpet[/3rd Woe]" (as some believe [*I * do not]), is that right?
And that the "Two Witnesses" are resurrected and ascend up into Heaven at the "6th Trumpet [events]/2nd Woe (as I believe is the case, per Rev11), PRIOR TO the "7th Trumpet" [events],... you agree?
I assume you believe "our Rapture" takes place at that "7th Trumpet[/3rd Woe]" (as some believe [*I * do not]), is that right?
And that the "Two Witnesses" are resurrected and ascend up into Heaven at the "6th Trumpet [events]/2nd Woe (as I believe is the case, per Rev11), PRIOR TO the "7th Trumpet" [events],... you agree?
Prophetic sequences can be quite confusing and our tendency to analyse only small sections of scripture at a time can lead to confusion. When I came to the Lord I had a lot to learn and Peter his first letter chapter 2 and verses 2 wrote: "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that you may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is good." While Paul describes this milk of the word as the first principles of the doctrine of Christ in Hebrews 6 verses 1 to 3. I have made these the foundation of my teaching ministry and would ask do you understand it. I have published a book through Lulu; a print on demand online publisher, entitled The Milk of the Word I'm sure you could get a copy from them.
To me that is mid trib
(you can see how long I have studied since now post tribbers can in fact be mid tribbers because of new terms.)
(as if God has no power in the first half and disagrees with the advent of the AC.)
therefore they think God is compelled to remove the saints mid trib.
IOW, most of you are "wrath" / "trib" centered and that in fact is your anchor for interpretation.
heaven sees the GT indirectly with the FOCUS of heaven being 2 fold 1 the gathering of the bride 2 the gathering of his hebrew people.
If you center somewhere else...you are bound to miss the entire point...and do.
(you can see how long I have studied since now post tribbers can in fact be mid tribbers because of new terms.)
(as if God has no power in the first half and disagrees with the advent of the AC.)
therefore they think God is compelled to remove the saints mid trib.
IOW, most of you are "wrath" / "trib" centered and that in fact is your anchor for interpretation.
heaven sees the GT indirectly with the FOCUS of heaven being 2 fold 1 the gathering of the bride 2 the gathering of his hebrew people.
If you center somewhere else...you are bound to miss the entire point...and do.
To clarify (in the event you've misunderstood any of my posts on that ^ subject), I am saying that the "Wheat and Tares" pertains to His Second Coming to the earth time-slot (... NOT to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" time-slot)
[I'm addressing this because this is not the first time you've mentioned such an idea, and it seemed (and seems) as though perhaps you'd thought I had suggested such a thing (as a [7-yr] "time-gap" between "Wheat" and "Tares")... when I have not. Just to be clear.]
[I'm addressing this because this is not the first time you've mentioned such an idea, and it seemed (and seems) as though perhaps you'd thought I had suggested such a thing (as a [7-yr] "time-gap" between "Wheat" and "Tares")... when I have not. Just to be clear.]
The wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest. The harvest is a singular event for two groups.
Matthew 13:30
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:30
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
I disagree, and have given a zillion reasons in past posts as to why I disagree with that view (that it pertains to the GWTj time-slot), so I won't get into all that here (again)... I'll just put a couple things here:
--Matt24:3 and the disciples' Q of Him there, was BASED ON what He'd ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" (which is FOLLOWED by "the AGE [SINGULAR] to come" that He'd already just spoken to them about in 12:32 and which they correctly understood to be referring to what WE call "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial age [singular]"); notice v.24 (Mt13) "the kingdom OF THE heavenS"... that *includes* the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age; and
--both Matt24-25 (speaking of the time period leading UP TO [and including] His "RETURN" to the earth) and Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 are speaking of the separation judgment [upon His "RETURN" to the earth] that will occur between *STILL-LIVING* PERSONS at that point in the chronology (i.e. no one is being "resurrected" in these two sets of context)
The "WHEAT and the tares" separation judgment is the determining [determination] of who (among the "STILL-LIVING" persons at that point) will ENTER the MK age (that is, in their mortal bodies--the only ones who will have the capacity to reproduce/bear children in / during the MK age [besides the children/grandchildren/etc themselves, born WITHIN/DURING the MK age]). Only the "saints / the RIGHTEOUS" will ENTER it.
I have many more reasons for remaining unconvinced of your viewpoint. (I do know many who see it as you do, and we've had many convos in various threads covering this Subject, where I've laid out many more reasons... but this post is already too lengthy... = ) )
--Matt24:3 and the disciples' Q of Him there, was BASED ON what He'd ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" (which is FOLLOWED by "the AGE [SINGULAR] to come" that He'd already just spoken to them about in 12:32 and which they correctly understood to be referring to what WE call "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial age [singular]"); notice v.24 (Mt13) "the kingdom OF THE heavenS"... that *includes* the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age; and
--both Matt24-25 (speaking of the time period leading UP TO [and including] His "RETURN" to the earth) and Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 are speaking of the separation judgment [upon His "RETURN" to the earth] that will occur between *STILL-LIVING* PERSONS at that point in the chronology (i.e. no one is being "resurrected" in these two sets of context)
The "WHEAT and the tares" separation judgment is the determining [determination] of who (among the "STILL-LIVING" persons at that point) will ENTER the MK age (that is, in their mortal bodies--the only ones who will have the capacity to reproduce/bear children in / during the MK age [besides the children/grandchildren/etc themselves, born WITHIN/DURING the MK age]). Only the "saints / the RIGHTEOUS" will ENTER it.
I have many more reasons for remaining unconvinced of your viewpoint. (I do know many who see it as you do, and we've had many convos in various threads covering this Subject, where I've laid out many more reasons... but this post is already too lengthy... = ) )
The passage is obviously speaking of the time of the wicked being burned in the LOF which is what happens at the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ).
There are two harvests at two different times.
The first gathering or harvest is known as the rapture and it is for those loyal to Christ. Those not raptured are physically punished. This is shown in Rev 14:
Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
This is the rapture by Christ.
Revelation 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
And this is what happens to those Christ did not rapture.
However, the order is reversed for the other harvest which occurs roughly 1000 years later:
Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Matthew 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Above we have the parable but lets skip down to the explanation of it by Christ:
Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
They ask for him to explain.
Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
The end of the world is the actual end of the world. The "end of the world" is used for different times in scripture so we have to identify the events described to determine exactly what time frame is meant.
Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Two things happen at this time. The wicked are gathered together first and burned in a furnace of fire and the righteous "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father". This is an obvious description of judgment day when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire while the righteous are given eternal life. That happens long after the second coming which identifies these events as being at the end of this age, the great white throne judgement found in Rev 20:
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This explains why descriptions of the second coming shows the righteous being gathered up first and the wicked second while this one parable says the wicked are gathered first and the righteous second. It's all a matter of time frame where the orders are reversed.
BTW, the wicked in the flood were not taken from the earth. They died on the earth from drowning while it was Noah and family that were taken off the surface of the world by the waters via the ark. That symbolizes the rapture and being taken to safty by God.
The same applies for the story of Lot where he and his family are TAKEN by angels to a safe location while those left behind (Greek means not accepted or rejected) were the ones God killed.
It is always the righteous that are taken or gathered first, taken to a location of safety and are together in one group while the rest are not allowed to join but are punished and killed.
Only long after the second coming will the wicked of the world be gathered and taken first while those who are righteous shall remain where they are.
-
1
- Show all
How it reads to me in this parable is there is a single field (the earth) with two different plants (righteous and wicked people) growing in it. The "harvest time" is a single period during which the wheat and the tares are harvested.
There is a section in Matthew 13 where Jesus explains the parable. It's verses 36-43.
Why do you think there are two separate harvest times?
There is a section in Matthew 13 where Jesus explains the parable. It's verses 36-43.
Why do you think there are two separate harvest times?
