If YESUAH says that the wicked is gather FIRST, WHY ARE some people looking for a rapture,??? Who does the say was taken in the flood.???

[TheDivineWatermark]

God's wrath starts at the vials not before them. All wrath prior to the vials is the wrath of Satan.

Consider the following:

--the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe / 1st Vial" occurs at pretty much the same point in time (per Rev8:13, 11:14-15, 15:1)

...where 15:1 says,

"And I saw another great and wonderful sign in heaven: seven angels, having seven plagues--the last [seven last plagues], because in them the wrath of God was/is completed." (note: "[in them the wrath of God] IS COMPLETED [G5055]"... not is STARTED. This is not its STARTING POINT.)



V.7 says, "...seven golden bowls *FULL [G1073] of the wrath of God..."

"*[G1073] 1073 gémō – full, especially with the sense "fully occupied with (by)," i.e. filled ("loaded") to capacity; laden (freighted) with; "totally characterized by" (in every sense)."

[this ^ word being distinct from the words G4137 plēróō and G5056 télos - Strong's Greek: 1073. γέμω (gemó) -- to be full (biblehub.com) (See "HELPS word-studies")]



...so this is not saying that the Vials/Bowls of wrath are where it starts and ends, but they are the LAST of it, in which the wrath of God is "COMPLETED [G5055 - teleó ]" per v.1 (etc)

 

[ewq1938]

"And I saw another great and wonderful sign in heaven: seven angels, having seven plagues--the last [seven last plagues], because in them the wrath of God was/is completed." (note: "[in them the wrath of God] IS COMPLETED [G5055]"... not is STARTED. This is not its STARTING POINT.)

The starting point is found here which is the same timing as the first vial:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The starting point is found here which is the same timing as the first vial:
[...]
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Verse 18 can also legitimately be worded "thy wrath came [/ ēlthen - G2064 ( erchomai )]


See how this exact form of this word is used here:

Matthew 12:42 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) - ēlthen

"The queen of the south will rise up in the judgment with this the generation and will condemn it. For she came [/ ēlthen - G2064] from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, a greater than Solomon is here." - Matthew 12:42


... speaking of a time [quite a bit] PRIOR to the present moment being referred to in that context.



____________

Again, I've pointed out the similar language between 2Th2:[7b-]8a with that of Lam2:3-4 (in the midst of "wrath" words/ideas), which his [man of sin] "be revealed" is at the START of the 7 yrs [i.e. SEAL #1 (Dan9:27a[26b])] (not its MIDDLE like 2:4, nor its END like 2:8b); and further, the similarities between this and the words in Hab1:6,12 (which is basically saying that God uses "the Chaldeans/Babylonians" "FOR JUDGMENT" and "FOR CORRECTION"... but that "one is restraining at present, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [/come to be]"... like Lam2:3 says, "he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy..."... because He uses "the enemy" [Chaldeans/Babylonians] "FOR JUDGMENT" and "FOR CORRECTION"... Rev5:6 is when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13, etc] by opening the FIRST SEAL, which is parallel to a number of other passages also referring to the START of the [7-]trib yrs, not its MIDDLE... and even Rev1:1 [/Rev1:19c/4:1] says [of the "future" aspects of the Book] "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [which includes ALL of the "Seals/Trumpets/Vials" in its "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period--Compare this "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period also referred to in Lk18:8 "avenge *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*" and in Rom16:20 "shall crush Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*" (see also 1Cor6:3[14] "... we shall JUDGE ANGELS")])

 

[ewq1938]

Verse 18 can also legitimately be worded "thy wrath came [/ ēlthen - G2064 ( erchomai )]

No, translators were correct that verb was in present tense understanding of the Aorist. Every event in the verse is present tense and happening within context of events of that verse. The wrath did come when the 7th trump sounded meaning God's wrath had not come prior to that.

 

[Absolutely]

Part of it does depict the rapture using an analogy of a sickle and reaping.

a catching away during the gt.,preceded by 144k firstfruit Jews at the beginning of rev 14.

...no white horses.
No dead raised

It is neither the rapture or the 2nd coming

 

[Ahwatukee]

Keep them to yourself. Your "rebukes" are unjustified and inappropriate.

When your teaching is false, then it is justified

 

[Absolutely]

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

That is Luke 3.

Here the wheat is gathered first.

I guess that kinda hurts the notion that noah was gathered last. Even though we can see it is plain Noah was gathered first.

 

[ewq1938]

Even though we can see it is plain Noah was gathered first.

Of course Noah was gathered first. That gathering is going to happen at the second coming, not before the GT.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

That is a reference to the one and only second coming. Pre-trib invents another coming before this one which isn't scriptural. The flood is comparable to the fluids in the vials of wrath that will be poured out. The rapture happens before the flood/vials pour and those vials of wrath only will pout after the GT has ended placing the rapture, as always, post-trib.

 

[Absolutely]

Of course Noah was gathered first. That gathering is going to happen at the second coming, not before the GT.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

That is a reference to the one and only second coming. Pre-trib invents another coming before this one which isn't scriptural. The flood is comparable to the fluids in the vials of wrath that will be poured out. The rapture happens before the flood/vials pour and those vials of wrath only will pout after the GT has ended placing the rapture, as always, post-trib.

Hello???
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

YOU LEFT OUT "before the flood"
Noah was NOT gathered postjudgement.

Noah RETURNED from heaven to earth POSTJUDGEMENT.

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Absolutely]

I have never seen a postrib rapture adherent notice that ever pesky "before " of mat 24.

Omission is the postrib rapture incubator.

 

[ewq1938]

Noah was NOT gathered postjudgement.

This is called a strawman fallacy. The rapture is BEFORE judgment of the unsaved. It happens AFTER the saints have suffered tribulation (persecution) from Satan and his beasts. The basic order of events is Satan will be kicked out of heaven and will be angry, he will start this 42 months of tribulation/persecution of the Church, when that period is over Christ will return and the dead will resurrect and the living will be changed and raptured to meet Christ in the clouds as he is returning.

 

[Absolutely]

This is called a strawman fallacy. The rapture is BEFORE judgment of the unsaved. It happens AFTER the saints have suffered tribulation (persecution) from Satan and his beasts. The basic order of events is Satan will be kicked out of heaven and will be angry, he will start this 42 months of tribulation/persecution of the Church, when that period is over Christ will return and the dead will resurrect and the living will be changed and raptured to meet Christ in the clouds as he is returning.

lol
the second coming on white horses is AFTER the wrath.

you have to be mid trib rapture (halfway into the 7 yr trib.)

BTW Nothing happened with Noah mid judgement (your apparent position)

 

[ewq1938]

lol
the second coming on white horses is AFTER the wrath.

No, the second coming starts God's wrath.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So, before that verse God's wrath hadn't started.

 

[Absolutely]

No, the second coming starts God's wrath.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So, before that verse God's wrath hadn't started.

The second coming is rev 19,post wrath,with white horses. The devil is defeated and chained for 1k yrs.
that verse you are quoting is not declaring dead judged at THAT moment. it is looking forward.
just read rev 12 and you will see that your position is not biblical.

 

[ewq1938]

The second coming is rev 19,post wrath,with white horses. The devil is defeated and chained for 1k yrs.
that verse you are quoting is not declaring dead judged at THAT moment. it is looking forward.
just read rev 12 and you will see that your position is not biblical.

Yours is the one that is not biblical. Revelation 11 says God's wrath begins at the 7th trump but you have the wrath long before that.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@ewq1938 ,

ewq - "Yours is the one that is not biblical. Revelation 11 says God's wrath begins at the 7th trump but you have the wrath long before that."

^ Re: "the seven LAST plagues" (the "7 Vials"), it says in 15:1,

"And I saw another great and wonderful sign in heaven: seven angels, having seven plagues--the last, because in them the wrath of God was completed [G5055 - teleo / etelesthē ]." ...do you think that G5055 word means "was started and finished/completed"?

Because that same word (G5055) is found in the verse shown below, also:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound the trumpet, then the mystery of God would be completed [G5055 - teleo / etelesthē ], as proclaimed to His servants, the prophets."... would you suggest that this means (like you do the other) that the mystery of God "would be started AND finished/completed" here in this "7th Trumpet" ("in the days of voice of the 7th angel, when he is about to sound...") ?? Or, just "finished/completed [G5055--what this word actually means]" as it states? (and that it's not suggesting that this point in the chronology is also its "STARTING-point")

 

[ewq1938]

You aren't even in the right chapter. I was speaking about Revelation 11 in the verse where it says God's wrath has COME.

@ewq1938 ,


^ Re: "the seven LAST plagues" (the "7 Vials"), it says in 15:1,

"And I saw another great and wonderful sign in heaven: seven angels, having seven plagues--the last, because in them the wrath of God was completed [G5055 - teleo / etelesthē ]." ...do you think that G5055 word means "was started and finished/completed"?

Because that same word (G5055) is found in the verse shown below, also:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound the trumpet, then the mystery of God would be completed [G5055 - teleo / etelesthē ], as proclaimed to His servants, the prophets."... would you suggest that this means (like you do the other) that the mystery of God "would be started AND finished/completed" here in this "7th Trumpet" ("in the days of voice of the 7th angel, when he is about to sound...") ?? Or, just "finished/completed [G5055--what this word actually means]" as it states? (and that it's not suggesting that this point in the chronology is also its "STARTING-point")

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You aren't even in the right chapter. I was speaking about Revelation 11 in the verse where it says God's wrath has COME

...and that is the exact word (in bold) that Matthew 12:42 uses (G2064 - ēlthen / erchomai ) :


Matthew 12:42 V-AIA-3S
GRK: αὐτήν ὅτι ἦλθεν ἐκ τῶν
NAS: it, because she came from the ends
KJV: for she came from
INT: it for she came from the


Revelation 11:18 V-AIA-3S
GRK: ὠργίσθησαν καὶ ἦλθεν ἡ ὀργή
NAS: and Your wrath came, and the time
KJV: thy wrath is come, and the time
INT: were angry and is come the wrath


... so can legitimately be translated "Your wrath came" (it doesn't have to mean, "right at that precise moment" being spoken of in the context)... So we can then look elsewhere, to either confirm or deny whichever one... (such as, for example, the verses I supplied in my past post... as well as others... as further clues to inform us...)

 

[ewq1938]

Doesn't change anything. The wrath of God came at the 7th trump not before it.

...and that is the exact word (in bold) that Matthew 12:42 uses (G2064 - ēlthen / erchomai ) :


Matthew 12:42 V-AIA-3S
GRK: αὐτήν ὅτι ἦλθεν ἐκ τῶν
NAS: it, because she came from the ends
KJV: for she came from
INT: it for she came from the


Revelation 11:18 V-AIA-3S
GRK: ὠργίσθησαν καὶ ἦλθεν ἡ ὀργή
NAS: and Your wrath came, and the time
KJV: thy wrath is come, and the time
INT: were angry and is come the wrath


... so can legitimately be translated "Your wrath came" (it doesn't have to mean, "right at that precise moment" being spoken of in the context)... So we can then look elsewhere, to either confirm or deny whichever one... (such as, for example, the verses I supplied in my past post... as well as others... as further clues to inform us...)

 

[Absolutely]

Yours is the one that is not biblical. Revelation 11 says God's wrath begins at the 7th trump but you have the wrath long before that.

Did you read rev 12?