If YESUAH says that the wicked is gather FIRST, WHY ARE some people looking for a rapture,??? Who does the say was taken in the flood.???
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Always? I'm not sure about that. The parable of the tares is speaking about judgement day. The wicked are gathered first on judgement day.
Maybe there is an earlier point that righteous are gathered first? It depends what we mean by gathered. You could say Abraham is an example of a righteous person gathered. I'm still looking for scripture that points the way to "righteous gathered first". Certainly not on judgement day, but as ewq1938 pointed out, the "righteous gathered first" in some interpretations is in reference to a point prior to judgement.
Maybe there is an earlier point that righteous are gathered first? It depends what we mean by gathered. You could say Abraham is an example of a righteous person gathered. I'm still looking for scripture that points the way to "righteous gathered first". Certainly not on judgement day, but as ewq1938 pointed out, the "righteous gathered first" in some interpretations is in reference to a point prior to judgement.
Here is yet another verse that will make the reframers mad.;
Luke 3
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Oooops.
THANK YOU JESUS!!!!!!!!!
You do gather the righteous first!!!!!
Luke 3
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Oooops.
THANK YOU JESUS!!!!!!!!!
You do gather the righteous first!!!!!
1) no wicked are shown to be gathered at the rapture.
2) in the rapture ONLY the righteous are gathered.
3) Jesus shows over and over the righteous gathered FIRST.
4) rev 14 shows 3 gatherings...first 2 righteous....3rd is wicked.
5) at the gwtj BOTH ARE GATHERED TOGETHER. CLEARLY in scripture.
All this is easily brought foreward.
2) in the rapture ONLY the righteous are gathered.
3) Jesus shows over and over the righteous gathered FIRST.
4) rev 14 shows 3 gatherings...first 2 righteous....3rd is wicked.
5) at the gwtj BOTH ARE GATHERED TOGETHER. CLEARLY in scripture.
All this is easily brought foreward.
If we are talking about timeframes prior to judgement day, Moses could certainly be interpreted as someone that was raptured in the OT (Jude 1:9). Abraham and Lazarus in the NT could be interpreted as people that were raptured prior to Jesus' death (parable of the rich man in Hades). Any moment of an angel carrying away someone could be seen as a rapture. Each of those examples would be post-humous raptures.
The concept brought forth by the new age rapture interpretation is that all of the living righteous are raptured away before the wine of wrath described in Revelation. You could interpret this to be the case, but I don't see any scripture that would suggest this is a necessary interpretation.
This interpretation requires us to see Mat 3:10 as achronological. It also requires us to interpret "chaff" as wicked people as opposed to removed impurities of the righteous. When compared to Mat 13, there is an explicit statement that the tares (the wicked) are gathered first. Either the metaphor for wheat is used differently between Mat 3 and Mat 13 or the "chaff" doesn't mean wicked people. It makes more sense from the perspective of consistency that "chaff" does not mean wicked people.
The righteous are spoken to first but the description of the wick ones' fate is addressed first. The description of fates could be achronological. Achronological description is required in order to interpret this to be consistent with "righteous gathered first" but there is nothing in Mat 25 itself that indicates that as the case.
"earth was reaped" could be interpreted as a rapturing of the righteous, and this would require "henceforth" in Rev 14:13 to refer to the "now" of John the Revelator's time as opposed to the "now" pertaining to the events shown in his vision.
"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." - Rev 14:13 KJV
"earth was reaped" could also be interpreted as a gathering of the grapes of wrath from the earth for the winepress. There are different interpretations that could be made from Revelation 14. Are there passages in Revelation 14 that point directly to the two righteous raptures you have suggested?
Noah and Lot were certainly given the opportunity to escape wrath but I would assume that rapture has some element of physically being taken into heaven as described in 2 Thes "into cloud". Otherwise we could describe Jesus hiding in the crowd as a "rapture" by that definition.
The parable of the tares in Matthew is on the judgement day and explicitly says the wicked are gathered first. In Revelation 20, on judgement day everyone is pulled out of Hades, death, and the sea. Those without their name in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire and then the chapter changes and begins talking about New Jerusalem. I agree that Revelation 20 could be achronological and could be interpreted as "gathered together", but when interpreted in cross reference to Mat 13:30, the wicked are gathered first and presumably meet their fate first (gathered and bound first, but perhaps the time that they are burned is in no necessary order relative to the wheat being taken to the barn).
There is a "smoking gun" for the wicked being gathered first in Mat 13:30 on the Day of the Lord (gwtj) but no "smoking gun" for the righteous being gathered first on the Day of the Lord. We can look at times prior to the Day of the Lord and speculate, but the judgement day has scriptural evidence that the wicked are specifically gathered and bound first, before the righteous are gathered.
If bud62 suggested this, I agree with you that what he said was incorrect.
My interpretation so far is that there isn't a compelling reason to interpret a righteous-saved-from-wrath rapture event in any particular part of Revelation (maybe an "into cloud" moment at the end of Rev 20 after the book of life is pulled out). I see parts that may be loosely interpreted to include a rapture doctrine, but I don't see the "smoking gun" that points to a righteous-saved-from-wrath rapture. Whether there is a righteous-saved-from-wrath rapture or not doesn't seem to effect the rest of scripture. It would be like someone arguing that Jesus' eyes were blue. Or that Moses's staff was exactly 4 ft 2.5 inches. I mean... you could. But whether or not that speculation is correct, does it have any real implication on the study of scripture? Does righteous-saved-from-wrath rapture have any bearing on scripture? Does it fulfil a prophesy or bring greater consistency with a promise or teaching? Does it instruct a philosophy on how best to live our lives?
Why would it matter if God spares the righteous from the pain of wrath? Would it be terrible if the saved spent time in torment? What does bodily pain matter if the end result is salvation without living memory of sorrow, sadness and pain?
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." - Revelation 21:4 KJV
The concept brought forth by the new age rapture interpretation is that all of the living righteous are raptured away before the wine of wrath described in Revelation. You could interpret this to be the case, but I don't see any scripture that would suggest this is a necessary interpretation.
This interpretation requires us to see Mat 3:10 as achronological. It also requires us to interpret "chaff" as wicked people as opposed to removed impurities of the righteous. When compared to Mat 13, there is an explicit statement that the tares (the wicked) are gathered first. Either the metaphor for wheat is used differently between Mat 3 and Mat 13 or the "chaff" doesn't mean wicked people. It makes more sense from the perspective of consistency that "chaff" does not mean wicked people.
The righteous are spoken to first but the description of the wick ones' fate is addressed first. The description of fates could be achronological. Achronological description is required in order to interpret this to be consistent with "righteous gathered first" but there is nothing in Mat 25 itself that indicates that as the case.
"earth was reaped" could be interpreted as a rapturing of the righteous, and this would require "henceforth" in Rev 14:13 to refer to the "now" of John the Revelator's time as opposed to the "now" pertaining to the events shown in his vision.
"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." - Rev 14:13 KJV
"earth was reaped" could also be interpreted as a gathering of the grapes of wrath from the earth for the winepress. There are different interpretations that could be made from Revelation 14. Are there passages in Revelation 14 that point directly to the two righteous raptures you have suggested?
Noah and Lot were certainly given the opportunity to escape wrath but I would assume that rapture has some element of physically being taken into heaven as described in 2 Thes "into cloud". Otherwise we could describe Jesus hiding in the crowd as a "rapture" by that definition.
The parable of the tares in Matthew is on the judgement day and explicitly says the wicked are gathered first. In Revelation 20, on judgement day everyone is pulled out of Hades, death, and the sea. Those without their name in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire and then the chapter changes and begins talking about New Jerusalem. I agree that Revelation 20 could be achronological and could be interpreted as "gathered together", but when interpreted in cross reference to Mat 13:30, the wicked are gathered first and presumably meet their fate first (gathered and bound first, but perhaps the time that they are burned is in no necessary order relative to the wheat being taken to the barn).
There is a "smoking gun" for the wicked being gathered first in Mat 13:30 on the Day of the Lord (gwtj) but no "smoking gun" for the righteous being gathered first on the Day of the Lord. We can look at times prior to the Day of the Lord and speculate, but the judgement day has scriptural evidence that the wicked are specifically gathered and bound first, before the righteous are gathered.
If bud62 suggested this, I agree with you that what he said was incorrect.
My interpretation so far is that there isn't a compelling reason to interpret a righteous-saved-from-wrath rapture event in any particular part of Revelation (maybe an "into cloud" moment at the end of Rev 20 after the book of life is pulled out). I see parts that may be loosely interpreted to include a rapture doctrine, but I don't see the "smoking gun" that points to a righteous-saved-from-wrath rapture. Whether there is a righteous-saved-from-wrath rapture or not doesn't seem to effect the rest of scripture. It would be like someone arguing that Jesus' eyes were blue. Or that Moses's staff was exactly 4 ft 2.5 inches. I mean... you could. But whether or not that speculation is correct, does it have any real implication on the study of scripture? Does righteous-saved-from-wrath rapture have any bearing on scripture? Does it fulfil a prophesy or bring greater consistency with a promise or teaching? Does it instruct a philosophy on how best to live our lives?
Why would it matter if God spares the righteous from the pain of wrath? Would it be terrible if the saved spent time in torment? What does bodily pain matter if the end result is salvation without living memory of sorrow, sadness and pain?
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." - Revelation 21:4 KJV
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^ "The day of the Lord" commences at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" per 1Th5:2-3 (and "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" Jesus spoke of [i.e. SAME] are EQUIVALENT the "SEALS" in Rev6, at the START of the time-period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 calls the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, aka the 7-yr Trib... so at the START of THAT); That time period doesn't START at His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (His "RETURN" to the earth...), it CONTINUES at that point, but does not START at that point
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The entirety of Revelation is on the Lord's day (Rev 1:10).
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," - Revelation 1:10 KJV
The trial by fire happens on the Lord's day (1 Cor 3:13).
"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is." - 1 Corinthians 3:13 KJV
Fire is used to expunge (Mat 13:30).
"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." - Matthew 13:30 KJV
Fire is also used to purify (Mat 3:12).
"Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." - Matthew 3:12 KJV
The wicked are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:13-15).
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:13-15 KJV
If we make these connections between Rev 1:10, 1 Cor 3:13, Mat 13:30, Mat 3:12, and Rev 20:13-15, we see that within the scope of Revelation (the Lord's day), the wicked (tares) are harvested first. There is no clear passage that discusses the righteous being harvested first on the Lord's day because it would contradict established facts from other passages. We can speculate that the timing of the wicked being burned is not necessarily prior to the righteous being taken into the barn, but the gathering and binding is indeed beforehand. If we are to explore the concept of a gathering of the righteous, it must be present in scripture after the wicked are gathered and bound. Perhaps the gathering and binding is about the mark of the beast. The interpretation needs some thought. Which passages and imagery cover the gathering of the wicked?
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," - Revelation 1:10 KJV
The trial by fire happens on the Lord's day (1 Cor 3:13).
"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is." - 1 Corinthians 3:13 KJV
Fire is used to expunge (Mat 13:30).
"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." - Matthew 13:30 KJV
Fire is also used to purify (Mat 3:12).
"Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." - Matthew 3:12 KJV
The wicked are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:13-15).
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:13-15 KJV
If we make these connections between Rev 1:10, 1 Cor 3:13, Mat 13:30, Mat 3:12, and Rev 20:13-15, we see that within the scope of Revelation (the Lord's day), the wicked (tares) are harvested first. There is no clear passage that discusses the righteous being harvested first on the Lord's day because it would contradict established facts from other passages. We can speculate that the timing of the wicked being burned is not necessarily prior to the righteous being taken into the barn, but the gathering and binding is indeed beforehand. If we are to explore the concept of a gathering of the righteous, it must be present in scripture after the wicked are gathered and bound. Perhaps the gathering and binding is about the mark of the beast. The interpretation needs some thought. Which passages and imagery cover the gathering of the wicked?
This is your clever reframe of mat 25 where the righteous are gathered first ( where you change Gods word to say something else)
"""The righteous are spoken to first but the description of the wick ones' fate is addressed first. The description of fates could be achronological. Achronological description is required in order to interpret this to be consistent with "righteous gathered first" but there is nothing in Mat 25 itself that indicates that as the case."""
You say all that INSPITE OF THE FACT that the righteous are gathered first.
The 5 wise virgins are ALREADY GATHERED before any rejection of the foolish....what a butcher job you do on the story.
You are making a fool of yourself
"""The righteous are spoken to first but the description of the wick ones' fate is addressed first. The description of fates could be achronological. Achronological description is required in order to interpret this to be consistent with "righteous gathered first" but there is nothing in Mat 25 itself that indicates that as the case."""
You say all that INSPITE OF THE FACT that the righteous are gathered first.
The 5 wise virgins are ALREADY GATHERED before any rejection of the foolish....what a butcher job you do on the story.
You are making a fool of yourself
"""My interpretation so far is that there isn't a compelling reason to interpret a righteous-saved-from-wrath rapture event in any particular part of Revelation (maybe an "into cloud" moment at the end of Rev 20 after the book of life is pulled out). I see parts that may be loosely interpreted to include a rapture doctrine, but I don't see the "smoking gun" that points to a righteous-saved-from-wrath rapture. """
Exactly...even though it is so clear that Jesus said to pray for escape then put a bilboard in your front yard depicting lot and noah as gathered prejudgement.
But your " interpretation " REQUIRES reframes and omissions.
Lets do a cognitive test
Were lot and noah delivered pre judgement?
Were either removed postjudgemen?
Did Jesus say to pray to escape the trib?
Are the 30 or so escape verses in the bible wrong and framed in some sinful disobedience that makes us like postribs to abhor such a thought as if from hell itself?
Verses do not need reframing for a doctrine, nor are they to be removed/ignored because they debunk your doctrine .
Exactly...even though it is so clear that Jesus said to pray for escape then put a bilboard in your front yard depicting lot and noah as gathered prejudgement.
But your " interpretation " REQUIRES reframes and omissions.
Lets do a cognitive test
Were lot and noah delivered pre judgement?
Were either removed postjudgemen?
Did Jesus say to pray to escape the trib?
Are the 30 or so escape verses in the bible wrong and framed in some sinful disobedience that makes us like postribs to abhor such a thought as if from hell itself?
Verses do not need reframing for a doctrine, nor are they to be removed/ignored because they debunk your doctrine .
"""Noah and Lot were certainly given the opportunity to escape wrath but I would assume that rapture has some element of physically being taken into heaven as described in 2 Thes "into cloud". Otherwise we could describe Jesus hiding in the crowd as a "rapture" by that definition."""
Ahem.
You NEED THEM DELIVERED AFTER judgement.
You say we are delivered / raptured AFTER JUDGEMENT.
Your craftiness can NOT change the DYNAMIC.
Over and over postribs do that noah and lot reframe job , but are oblivious that they need to show us either as a post judgement removal.
So destroyed is postrib rapture theory.
Ahem.
You NEED THEM DELIVERED AFTER judgement.
You say we are delivered / raptured AFTER JUDGEMENT.
Your craftiness can NOT change the DYNAMIC.
Over and over postribs do that noah and lot reframe job , but are oblivious that they need to show us either as a post judgement removal.
So destroyed is postrib rapture theory.
"""The concept brought forth by the new age rapture interpretation is that all of the living righteous are raptured away before the wine of wrath described in Revelation. You could interpret this to be the case, but I don't see any scripture that would suggest this is a necessary interpretation."""
Lol
1 thats not what pretribs believe
2 in rev 14 you can do nothing but reframe it.
NOTHING BUT REFRAME WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK WE ARE FORBIDDEN TO RE-ARRANGE
Lol
1 thats not what pretribs believe
2 in rev 14 you can do nothing but reframe it.
NOTHING BUT REFRAME WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK WE ARE FORBIDDEN TO RE-ARRANGE