If YESUAH says that the wicked is gather FIRST, WHY ARE some people looking for a rapture,??? Who does the say was taken in the flood.???
- Thread starter bud62
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
It's just passion brother.
BOOM, you get it here, I think.
When you see those who talk about First-fruits are this or that and prove this or that, most don't understand each of those harvests you just mentioned have "First-fruits", both the grain and fruit harvests and later on the grain harvests will have chaff that must be sifted at the Barley Harvest as well as at the Wheat Harvest. Then a worker would blow away the chaff when it rises to the top, likewise, God blows away the chaff when its harvest time.
There is an interesting dynamic with the harvests that show us that one is not meant for the tribulation at all. Both grains and fruits experience a "time of separation". Mature barley using a sort of winnowing process, workers using a fan or fork throw the barley into the wind so the wind can separate the chaff from the grain. Meanwhile mature wheat goes through a time of separation or crushing which some call a threshing. using a "TRIBULUM", a wooden board with holes in it which oxen pulled, thrashers stand on the boards as they are being pulled over the grain, causing the gran to be separated from the chaff (husks).
Now the sifting begins because small husks and/or small pebbles may still be in the grain. They shake the grain and the chaff rises to the top. The Churh will be "SHAKEN" before judgment day. Amen. Last the grapes must be treaded, using a Wine-press. So, there, in a nutshell, ate the three main Harvests.
The Barley Harvest comes first.
The Barley Harvest represents those on fire for Jesus Christ who live completely sanctified lives, we are the first phase of the Harvest of souls who participate in the 1st Resurrection. Some will be resurrected dead and some raptured alive (but we die as we are raptured, of course) as 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thess. 4 tells us.
These "OVERCOMERS" have been harvested by the winnowing process, which means they did not need to be harvested by using a "TRIBULUM" (Latin word we get Tribulation from). n other words the Barley Harvest will not go through the 7 Year Tribulation Period of which the last 3.5 years is great distress or great trouble.
The Wheat Harvest
Now this does indeed include the Jews and all other believers, the problem is Satan is going to kill all the Gentile believers, that's the point I was making last night, there will be no Elect to gather up, only Israel and the Dead Souls who will live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. (there may be a few, but the point is ONLY Israel gets protected, and this the Anti-Christ will kill them all, I mean 1.5 billion to 2 billion people). Thus Israel will be the Wheat that REMAINS with the Tares until the very end.
Of course, it's irrelevant as per it being germane, even if the 144,000 are technically harvested before the grapes, we know this is referring to the Second Resurrection Harvest in a 1000 years, not the Wheat and Tare Harvest. The CHAFF gets blown away first, then the Wheat is harvested, that's my point. Now the grape Harvest is indeed last, but that only means the wicked are judged in a 1000 years. Burnt up. Since the Wheat is Israel, and God separates the chaff, I have to assume that chaff is the 2/3 Jews who refuse to repent. The Barley chaff is those who claimed to be Christians but are not. And the grape harvest is the wicked, not the chaff. But I need to study it more. I was looking at some old notes. I kind of confused myself for a minute
. (I had forgotten about the tribulum, meaning tribulation in the English).
I used to know this in-depth, I need to go back over it, but overall, like I have been saying here Rev. 14 is the Harvest Chapter. It shows us ALL THREE HARVESTS. We just have to understand the Barley Harvest comes first (Rapture) even though it's in verse 14 because it's a flashback.
BOOM, you get it here, I think.
When you see those who talk about First-fruits are this or that and prove this or that, most don't understand each of those harvests you just mentioned have "First-fruits", both the grain and fruit harvests and later on the grain harvests will have chaff that must be sifted at the Barley Harvest as well as at the Wheat Harvest. Then a worker would blow away the chaff when it rises to the top, likewise, God blows away the chaff when its harvest time.
There is an interesting dynamic with the harvests that show us that one is not meant for the tribulation at all. Both grains and fruits experience a "time of separation". Mature barley using a sort of winnowing process, workers using a fan or fork throw the barley into the wind so the wind can separate the chaff from the grain. Meanwhile mature wheat goes through a time of separation or crushing which some call a threshing. using a "TRIBULUM", a wooden board with holes in it which oxen pulled, thrashers stand on the boards as they are being pulled over the grain, causing the gran to be separated from the chaff (husks).
Now the sifting begins because small husks and/or small pebbles may still be in the grain. They shake the grain and the chaff rises to the top. The Churh will be "SHAKEN" before judgment day. Amen. Last the grapes must be treaded, using a Wine-press. So, there, in a nutshell, ate the three main Harvests.
The Barley Harvest comes first.
The Barley Harvest represents those on fire for Jesus Christ who live completely sanctified lives, we are the first phase of the Harvest of souls who participate in the 1st Resurrection. Some will be resurrected dead and some raptured alive (but we die as we are raptured, of course) as 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thess. 4 tells us.
These "OVERCOMERS" have been harvested by the winnowing process, which means they did not need to be harvested by using a "TRIBULUM" (Latin word we get Tribulation from). n other words the Barley Harvest will not go through the 7 Year Tribulation Period of which the last 3.5 years is great distress or great trouble.
The Wheat Harvest
Now this does indeed include the Jews and all other believers, the problem is Satan is going to kill all the Gentile believers, that's the point I was making last night, there will be no Elect to gather up, only Israel and the Dead Souls who will live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. (there may be a few, but the point is ONLY Israel gets protected, and this the Anti-Christ will kill them all, I mean 1.5 billion to 2 billion people). Thus Israel will be the Wheat that REMAINS with the Tares until the very end.
Of course, it's irrelevant as per it being germane, even if the 144,000 are technically harvested before the grapes, we know this is referring to the Second Resurrection Harvest in a 1000 years, not the Wheat and Tare Harvest. The CHAFF gets blown away first, then the Wheat is harvested, that's my point. Now the grape Harvest is indeed last, but that only means the wicked are judged in a 1000 years. Burnt up. Since the Wheat is Israel, and God separates the chaff, I have to assume that chaff is the 2/3 Jews who refuse to repent. The Barley chaff is those who claimed to be Christians but are not. And the grape harvest is the wicked, not the chaff. But I need to study it more. I was looking at some old notes. I kind of confused myself for a minute
. (I had forgotten about the tribulum, meaning tribulation in the English). I used to know this in-depth, I need to go back over it, but overall, like I have been saying here Rev. 14 is the Harvest Chapter. It shows us ALL THREE HARVESTS. We just have to understand the Barley Harvest comes first (Rapture) even though it's in verse 14 because it's a flashback.
You were incorrect and now you boast falsely that you have successfully demonstrated your case? And then claim I backpeddled?
No, it is not necessarily the case that the righteous were gathered first. You brought up Mat 3 and ignored Mat 3:10, you brought up Mat 25 and ignored Mat 25:46. You brought up Revelation and ignored the sequences in Revelation 20. Why do you ignore scripture to suit your interpretation?
No, it is not necessarily the case that the righteous were gathered first. You brought up Mat 3 and ignored Mat 3:10, you brought up Mat 25 and ignored Mat 25:46. You brought up Revelation and ignored the sequences in Revelation 20. Why do you ignore scripture to suit your interpretation?
Do i need to post them?
You understand those 3 places DO NOT HAVE...UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES...WICKED TAKEN FIRST.
REV 14. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Notice a gathering...a gathering to Jesus
But LATER WE SEE THE WICKED GATHERED AFTER THE RIGHTEOUS
RE 14 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
MAT 3 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
MAT 25 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
.
Now what was your clever way of reframing that again?
You understand those 3 places DO NOT HAVE...UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES...WICKED TAKEN FIRST.
REV 14. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Notice a gathering...a gathering to Jesus
But LATER WE SEE THE WICKED GATHERED AFTER THE RIGHTEOUS
RE 14 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
MAT 3 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
MAT 25 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
.
Now what was your clever way of reframing that again?
"""You were correct and have successfully demonstrated your case. And then claim I backpeddled?
it is necessarily the case that the righteous were gathered first. You brought up Mat 3 and ignored nothing, you brought up Mat 25 and ignored nothing. You brought up Revelation and ignored nothing. Why do you use scripture to suit your interpretation""""
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^there i fixed it for you. now it is truthful^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
-
1
- Show all
Matthew 3 discusses the wicked being gathered and burned before discussing the fate of the righteous (don't ignore Matthew 3:10).
Matthew 25 discusses the wicked being gathered and burned before discussing the fate of the righteous (don't ignore Matthew 25:46).
You could argue that in both cases, the fate of the wicked is described prior to the fate of the righteous, but that it is not necessarily indicative of the true chronological order. There are three possibilities: 1) the wicked are gathered first, 2) the wicked are gathered last, 3) neither (e.g. simultaneous, some of each at a time, etc).
Fortunately, another section in Matthew provides an explicit order to the gathering of the wicked and the righteous:
"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." - Matthew 13:30 KJV
Without question, Matthew states that the tares (the wicked) are gathered first. We can speculate that this first gathering does not gather all of the tares to fit into a "some of each at a time" interpretation but "the righteous are gathered first" is completely invalid.
Revelation 14:16 describes the earth being reaped:
"And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." - Revelation 14:16 KJV
This passage is sometimes interpreted as a moment of rapture (a gathering of the righteous). However, we see in Revelation 14:19 that this reaping is actually a description of the harvest of the grapes of wrath from the earth.
"And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God." - Revelation 14:19 KJV
It isn't until the end of the Revelation 20 that we see the finality of judgement and the wicked being gathered/cast into the lake of fire, and then the righteous ending up in new Jerusalem in Revelation 21.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." - Revelation 20:13-21:2 KJV
There is nothing I have found in Revelation that states that the righteous are gathered first. Use scripture, make your case. Address Matthew 13:30 and address Revelation.
Matthew 25 discusses the wicked being gathered and burned before discussing the fate of the righteous (don't ignore Matthew 25:46).
You could argue that in both cases, the fate of the wicked is described prior to the fate of the righteous, but that it is not necessarily indicative of the true chronological order. There are three possibilities: 1) the wicked are gathered first, 2) the wicked are gathered last, 3) neither (e.g. simultaneous, some of each at a time, etc).
Fortunately, another section in Matthew provides an explicit order to the gathering of the wicked and the righteous:
"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." - Matthew 13:30 KJV
Without question, Matthew states that the tares (the wicked) are gathered first. We can speculate that this first gathering does not gather all of the tares to fit into a "some of each at a time" interpretation but "the righteous are gathered first" is completely invalid.
Revelation 14:16 describes the earth being reaped:
"And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." - Revelation 14:16 KJV
This passage is sometimes interpreted as a moment of rapture (a gathering of the righteous). However, we see in Revelation 14:19 that this reaping is actually a description of the harvest of the grapes of wrath from the earth.
"And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God." - Revelation 14:19 KJV
It isn't until the end of the Revelation 20 that we see the finality of judgement and the wicked being gathered/cast into the lake of fire, and then the righteous ending up in new Jerusalem in Revelation 21.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." - Revelation 20:13-21:2 KJV
There is nothing I have found in Revelation that states that the righteous are gathered first. Use scripture, make your case. Address Matthew 13:30 and address Revelation.
At the second coming the righteous are gathered together first, then the unrighteous receive wrath.
(over a thousand years later)
At the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) the unrighteous are gathered first and burned in the lake of fire, then the righteous are taken to the barn which is the New Heaven and new Earth.
(over a thousand years later)
At the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) the unrighteous are gathered first and burned in the lake of fire, then the righteous are taken to the barn which is the New Heaven and new Earth.
"""This passage is sometimes interpreted as a moment of rapture (a gathering of the righteous). However, we see in Revelation 14:19 that this reaping is actually a description of the harvest of the grapes of wrath from the earth."""
Flat out lie.
You actually change Gods word around for your failed doctrine.
Jesus harvests a group of righteous from the clouds with a sickle.
LATER ( YOU KNOW, AS IN AFTER) AN ANGEL( THAT WOULD BE ANOTHER BEING...NOT JESUS) GATHERS WICKED TO BE THROWN IN THE WINEPRESS.
Please stop the lying.
You are making a fool out of yourself.
Flat out lie.
You actually change Gods word around for your failed doctrine.
Jesus harvests a group of righteous from the clouds with a sickle.
LATER ( YOU KNOW, AS IN AFTER) AN ANGEL( THAT WOULD BE ANOTHER BEING...NOT JESUS) GATHERS WICKED TO BE THROWN IN THE WINEPRESS.
Please stop the lying.
You are making a fool out of yourself.
This breakdown is helpful, and I appreciate the perspective as a means of addressing Matthew, but I am having difficulty finding passages that clearly describe a pre-judgement day gathering (in the sense of a rapture). I see passages describing the gathering of the grapes of wrath. I see many sequences of wrath placed on earth. But where are the passages in Revelation that discuss a rapturous gathering of righteous people prior to judgement day?