If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?

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posthuman said:
when the foundations of the earth were made, and it's cornerstone set, the angels were there watching, and rejoiced.

this is clearly before the plants, animals or mankind were created.

Job 38:4-7
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell [Me,] if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Take it slow with him.
That is in English, not Hebrew or Greek.
He can't play exegesis games with that when we understand English.

Job 38 speaks of the foundations of the planet earth. And?

It says that angels were watching its formation with celebration!

:censored: ..... but that does not mean that angels existed before man?

He should drop his resentment when his sense of self-importance is being challenged by God via us simple folk.
The heaven was made in day two. Everything "below" was liquid until day three Gen. 1:9, when the foundations of the earth were laid. That leaves the time between being created on day two, and the foundations being laid on day three for the angels to be "the morning stars singing together, And all the sons of God shouting for joy"
 
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He could put them in the heaven he had just made. I am quite OK with the possibility that angels were made before Gen.1:1. I am simply pointing out that we are not told that is the case, so any argument that relies on assuming that, is purely suppositional, not biblically factual. The supposition could be correct, but we cannot prove it is correct based on the revelation we presently have.
Genesis 1:1 involves the creation of the earth.
God Himself in Job 38 says the angels were present observing the creation of the earth.

so it isn't clear why you would say there is no 'Biblically factual' basis for what is plainly stated in scripture.
 
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Genesis 1:1 involves the creation of the earth.
God Himself in Job 38 says the angels were present observing the creation of the earth.

so it isn't clear why you would say there is no 'Biblically factual' basis for what is plainly stated in scripture.
Genesis 1:1 is the describing the theme of what is about to be reported. God creating the heavens (Ha-SaMaYiM plural) and the earth (Ha-"aReTs, singular). The earth did not exist. It was without form and void. How do you get from Geneisis 1 :1 that the angels were already made before the earth was without form and void and there were no heavens yet created?
 
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something that does not exist cannot be described as having qualities like formlessness and emptiness.
if it doesn't exist, it had no qualities at all.
But Genesis 1:2 describes the earth covered with water
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.


11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

There was nothing solid until day three. vv. 9-10. Where do you find a solid earth already formed under water in verse 2?
 

TMS

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Mar 21, 2015
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Actually. a large part of the scientific community are six day creationists, so I am not utterly rejectng the scientific community by believing Genesis 1-2 as it is written.
Yes as wisdom increases, sciences is becoming more and more in agreement with the bible. The Bible tells us that God created the heavens and earth and all life on earth in 6 days.

If you trust the bible or have faith in the word of God you'll believe the bible rather then man's foolish theories.

1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
 
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1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

There was nothing solid until day three. vv. 9-10. Where do you find a solid earth already formed under water in verse 2?
the text doesn't say there was nothing solid on the planet.

it says there was nothing dry.
 
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"The earth was without form and void" does not seem to me to describe a solid earth submerged within water.
try, "over the surface of the waters" and "let the dry land appear"

notice the command is that the dry land appear, not be created. that creation is already from verse 1

water is formless, but takes on whatever the form forces applied to it describe. and void refers to there being no life, not nonexistence. if the earth didn't exist it could not be described as being empty.
 
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try, "over the surface of the waters" and "let the dry land appear"

notice the command is that the dry land appear, not be created. that creation is already from verse 1

water is formless, but takes on whatever the form forces applied to it describe. and void refers to there being no life, not nonexistence. if the earth didn't exist it could not be described as being empty.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear (i.e. be seen, W-TeRa"eR, Niphal Imperfective Waw-sequential, hence having a Perfective sense): and it was so.

In the Gen. 1 account the verb to see (רָאָה Ra"aH) is used in various forms many times.
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

All of them refer to God seeing. The form of verb used for appear (the passive of רָאָה, therefore "be seen" is waw-Imperfective meaning it should be considered as perfective and subsequential to the previous verb. It seems to be God commanding the land to be seen by Himself. Since God sees all that exists, if the land already existed inside the water, it could already be seen by God. and God commanding it to be seen seems a redundant command for God to give. However, if there was no land yet formed, and it was formed at God's command from the elements suspended in the waters, the command makes sense and the land came into full visibility to God as land, after He had ordered it to do so. And this both fits the Hebrew text and is also a viable sequence of events.

I am not averse to the idea that angels were some carry over from some previous world that was dissolved and reformed, as will also happen to this one in the future, and we will be watching it happen as resurrected saints. But there is no evidence that the present day angels, including the one who became satan, WERE created in the previous age. So, any argument based on an assumption that they WERE and which goes further and builds an entire mythology upon that assumption, is only a theory, not mandatory doctrine. My mythology re when satan's became satan is also based on some assumptions and is not mandatory doctrine. Individuals are free to explore the various theories and come to their own conclusions. You are doingme a service to point out where my assumptions are not explicitly in scripture. And I am doing the same for you, Knowing which ideas we have are assumptions and which are biblical assertions enables us to make a reasonable assessment of how probable ourr own and other theories are. We do not have to be certain of everything.
 

PaulThomson

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Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear (i.e. be seen, W-TeRa"eR, Niphal Imperfective Waw-sequential, hence having a Perfective sense): and it was so.

In the Gen. 1 account the verb to see (רָאָה Ra"aH) is used in various forms many times.
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

All of them refer to God seeing. The form of verb used for appear (the passive of רָאָה, therefore "be seen" is waw-Imperfective meaning it should be considered as perfective and subsequential to the previous verb. It seems to be God commanding the land to be seen by Himself. Since God sees all that exists, if the land already existed inside the water, it could already be seen by God. and God commanding it to be seen seems a redundant command for God to give. However, if there was no land yet formed, and it was formed at God's command from the elements suspended in the waters, the command makes sense and the land came into full visibility to God as land, after He had ordered it to do so. And this both fits the Hebrew text and is also a viable sequence of events.

I am not averse to the idea that angels were some carry over from some previous world that was dissolved and reformed, as will also happen to this one in the future, and we will be watching it happen as resurrected saints. But there is no evidence that the present day angels, including the one who became satan, WERE created in the previous age. So, any argument based on an assumption that they WERE and which goes further and builds an entire mythology upon that assumption, is only a theory, not mandatory doctrine. My mythology re when satan's became satan is also based on some assumptions and is not mandatory doctrine. Individuals are free to explore the various theories and come to their own conclusions. You are doingme a service to point out where my assumptions are not explicitly in scripture. And I am doing the same for you, Knowing which ideas we have are assumptions and which are biblical assertions enables us to make a reasonable assessment of how probable ourr own and other theories are. We do not have to be certain of everything.
May I add -

1 In the beginning God created ( בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים , Bara" eLoHiYM) the heaven and the earth.
2 And-the-earth was ( וְהָאָרֶץ הָיְתָה , W-Ha-"eReTs HaYThaH) without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

In the first verse the verb is Qal perfect, God completely-created.
In the second verse the verb is Qal perfect, the earth completely-was without form and void.

The second verb is not waw-sequential, so it is not sequential to the verb in verse one. It is part of a new verb chain. This new verb chain most likely began before the verb in verse one, because if it happened consequentially to the verb in verse one, it would have had a waw prefix. and the verb would have been Qal imperfective.

So the Hebrew grammar does not support a reading that says that God created the heavens and the earth and the earth became without form and void afterwards. It supports a reading that says that God created the heavens and the earth, and this is how He did it.
 
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So the Hebrew grammar does not support a reading that says that God created the heavens and the earth and the earth became without form and void afterwards.
sure it does.

Waw-conjunctive may also be used or omitted between two verbs. In imperative sentences such as "sit and wait" the use of the waw between the two verbs is particularly common in maskilic literature, but there are no clear cut semantic considerations regulating the use of vav conjunctive.
- Lily Kahn The verbal system in late enlightenment Hebrew p. 241
and the scriptures witness:

Isaiah 45:18​
For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited:
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
we have clear scripture that the angels were created before the earth, placing them somewhere in Genesis 1:1, and Satan having headship in an Eden of mineral beauty, not biological. we have an earth created in v.1 not to be void, yet void in v.2 covered in water - just like the waters of the days of Noah.
this puts the rise and fall of Satan all before verse 2, and the entire creation of biological life, a testimony before the angels of the redemptive work of God in Christ.


and we also have scripture telling us word games are meaningless and destructive.
 
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But there is no evidence that the present day angels, including the one who became satan, WERE created in the previous age.
it has already bern shown in Job 38 that the angels definitively pre-exist the creation of the earth, which takes place previous to Genesis 1:2
 

PaulThomson

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sure it does.

Waw-conjunctive may also be used or omitted between two verbs. In imperative sentences such as "sit and wait" the use of the waw between the two verbs is particularly common in maskilic literature, but there are no clear cut semantic considerations regulating the use of vav conjunctive.
- Lily Kahn The verbal system in late enlightenment Hebrew p. 241
and the scriptures witness:

Isaiah 45:18​
For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited:
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
we have clear scripture that the angels were created before the earth, placing them somewhere in Genesis 1:1, and Satan having headship in an Eden of mineral beauty, not biological. we have an earth created in v.1 not to be void, yet void in v.2 covered in water - just like the waters of the days of Noah.
this puts the rise and fall of Satan all before verse 2, and the entire creation of biological life, a testimony before the angels of the redemptive work of God in Christ.


and we also have scripture telling us word games are meaningless and destructive.
I tried. I can't help you further.
 
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That's not what I said. Straw man alert.
ahem.

Since God sees all that exists, if the land already existed inside the water, it could already be seen by God. and God commanding it to be seen seems a redundant command for God to give. However, if there was no land yet formed, and it was formed at God's command from the elements suspended in the waters, the command makes sense and the land came into full visibility
you went to great logical loop de loops to argue Genesis 1:1 isn't the creation of the earth, and now that it was shot down, you are trying to pretend you never did.
 

PaulThomson

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ahem.

PaulThomson said:
Since God sees all that exists, if the land already existed inside the water, it could already be seen by God. and God commanding it to be seen seems a redundant command for God to give. However, if there was no land yet formed, and it was formed at God's command from the elements suspended in the waters, the command makes sense and the land came into full visibility

you went to great logical loop de loops to argue Genesis 1:1 isn't the creation of the earth, and now that it was shot down, you are trying to pretend you never did.
I never said Gen. 1:1 is not the creation of the earth. Another straw man alert.