How many People Think the Jews Could Be Wrong?
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I am trying not to Offend you, but someone has to tell you. Drop the GIANT PRINT, most of us scroll right past giant print, like it is not even there. Like "Ah gee, another Teenager." If you want to emphasize a particular part of a verse. Use font size 18, and only go to 22 on RARE OCCASIONS, and never go any higher. Colors are OK, but don't over do it, here are some easy ones.
RED = #DD0000
BLUE = #0000DD
FUSHIA = #FF00FF
LIME = #00FF00
GREEN = #008000
YELLOW = #FFFF00
AQUA = #00FFFF
BLACK = #000000
WHITE = #FFFFFF Here is HOW I use White Letters:
I hope it is not a violation, when I do this way.
First I crop to a smaller Picture, Flip it backwards, trying not to violate Copy Right laws.
And then add a Black Text Box with a Photo Editor. Putting White Text on Black background.
I am trying not to Offend you, but someone has to tell you. Drop the GIANT PRINT, most of us scroll right past giant print, like it is not even there. Like "Ah gee, another Teenager." If you want to emphasize a particular part of a verse. Use font size 18, and only go to 22 on RARE OCCASIONS, and never go any higher. Colors are OK, but don't over do it, here are some easy ones.
RED = #DD0000
BLUE = #0000DD
FUSHIA = #FF00FF
LIME = #00FF00
GREEN = #008000
YELLOW = #FFFF00
AQUA = #00FFFF
BLACK = #000000
WHITE = #FFFFFF Here is HOW I use White Letters:
I hope it is not a violation, when I do this way.First I crop to a smaller Picture, Flip it backwards, trying not to violate Copy Right laws.
And then add a Black Text Box with a Photo Editor. Putting White Text on Black background.
There are many cultures that count back patrilineally with a last name, etc. But one could still unknowningly be a descendant through any point of matrilineal branching. Timothy's mother was a Jew and his father was a nonJew. If we look at situations like that where a traceable last name would be lost, it becomes very clear that not all descendants of Abraham through Jacob necessarily have a last name or even resemblant appearance that could be easily traced back. They would nonetheless be a descendant whether they knew so or not.
You can also have unfortunate circumstances where someone thinks they have a certain lineage but they don't because some female ancestor was unfaithful or otherwise deceitful.
You can also have pretenders' claims where they were never part of a particular lineage at all but they claim to be part so that they can claim an inheritance that was never rightly theirs to begin with.
Many generations? 2000 years worth of generations? Not likely. Not without questionable accuracy. And if some family did claim to have such a genealogy, it would be highly suspect. And statistically, it would still be easier to demonstrate a lineage than to rule out lineage.
The entire shtick of Talmudism is that it relies on a black and white understanding of ancestry and identity when the topic is by no means black and white.
From a Christian perspective, the entire fleshly ancestry conversation is a red herring. All of this conversation about contemporary bloodlines is only important to the Talmudic religions and completely unimportant to Christianity.
You can also have unfortunate circumstances where someone thinks they have a certain lineage but they don't because some female ancestor was unfaithful or otherwise deceitful.
You can also have pretenders' claims where they were never part of a particular lineage at all but they claim to be part so that they can claim an inheritance that was never rightly theirs to begin with.
Many generations? 2000 years worth of generations? Not likely. Not without questionable accuracy. And if some family did claim to have such a genealogy, it would be highly suspect. And statistically, it would still be easier to demonstrate a lineage than to rule out lineage.
The entire shtick of Talmudism is that it relies on a black and white understanding of ancestry and identity when the topic is by no means black and white.
From a Christian perspective, the entire fleshly ancestry conversation is a red herring. All of this conversation about contemporary bloodlines is only important to the Talmudic religions and completely unimportant to Christianity.
I agree with everything you said except for this last portion and want to push back at it a bit. If bloodlines didn't matter then it wouldn't have mattered which tribe and family the Messiah was born within. It mattered because He had to establish a legal, rightful, earthly claim to the throne of David.
Expand this concept further, this was why the people were eager to make the Messiah their king and why disciples asked Him if it was time for the kingdom to be restored in Acts, just before the giving of the Holy Spirit. There are promises still pending for that earthly kingdom that must be fulfilled simply because the Almighty gave them. They all weren't conditional and many had to do with territory and property.
[I say this with, again, the understanding that those who are currently claiming such a pedigree are not the fulfillment of the promises made to Israel.]
Expand this concept further, this was why the people were eager to make the Messiah their king and why disciples asked Him if it was time for the kingdom to be restored in Acts, just before the giving of the Holy Spirit. There are promises still pending for that earthly kingdom that must be fulfilled simply because the Almighty gave them. They all weren't conditional and many had to do with territory and property.
[I say this with, again, the understanding that those who are currently claiming such a pedigree are not the fulfillment of the promises made to Israel.]
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I appreciate the push back, thank you for taking the time.
I agree with you, and all I meant by contemporary bloodlines was that the bloodline claims in the modern world aren't relevant in the sense that Talmudic religions claim it to be. I completely agree that the bloodline leading up to Christ was important.
I think this is the crux of the conversation, the interpretation of OT prophecies. I think it is compellingly the case that many of these promises (especially the seed promises) can logically be fulfilled in Christ.
I think there is room for fruitful conversation about OT prophecies including land claims, etc. But I still see the likely result to be that Christ or those in Christ modernly would fulfil those prophecies, being members of the faith in good standing.
I think the best approach to this topic would be to 1) identify the passages containing the prophecies and their requirements, 2) evaluate all possible/valid interpretations that could be applied to fulfil those requirements, and 3) to make determinations from all of the possibilities as to what appears to be the most compelling interpretation.
I agree that I spoke in haste. I should have stated that I personally find it most compellingly the case that modern/contemporary bloodlines would be irrelevant (I see the distinction of bloodlines within Christ to be contrary to "there is neither Jew nor Gentile"). But so long as we stay consistent with scripture, I welcome counterpoints to that perspective.
I think the main driving point that Dispensationalists will disagree with but is scriptural fact is that Christ is a recipient of all of the promises. If Christ is the recipient of the promises, how could it be the case that the body of Christ is not?
I agree with you, and all I meant by contemporary bloodlines was that the bloodline claims in the modern world aren't relevant in the sense that Talmudic religions claim it to be. I completely agree that the bloodline leading up to Christ was important.
I think this is the crux of the conversation, the interpretation of OT prophecies. I think it is compellingly the case that many of these promises (especially the seed promises) can logically be fulfilled in Christ.
I think there is room for fruitful conversation about OT prophecies including land claims, etc. But I still see the likely result to be that Christ or those in Christ modernly would fulfil those prophecies, being members of the faith in good standing.
I think the best approach to this topic would be to 1) identify the passages containing the prophecies and their requirements, 2) evaluate all possible/valid interpretations that could be applied to fulfil those requirements, and 3) to make determinations from all of the possibilities as to what appears to be the most compelling interpretation.
I agree that I spoke in haste. I should have stated that I personally find it most compellingly the case that modern/contemporary bloodlines would be irrelevant (I see the distinction of bloodlines within Christ to be contrary to "there is neither Jew nor Gentile"). But so long as we stay consistent with scripture, I welcome counterpoints to that perspective.
I think the main driving point that Dispensationalists will disagree with but is scriptural fact is that Christ is a recipient of all of the promises. If Christ is the recipient of the promises, how could it be the case that the body of Christ is not?
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The point is.....that is not what 2 Thes 2 or Dan 9 is referring to a real living definite person and real extant definite building.
Just as there was a real Judas, a real Jesus, in Revelation during the final 3-1/2 years, there are real Jews, a real land of Israel, real wars, real 2 witnesses etc. etc.
Any other format is Biblically untenable and you end up with incorrigible myth.
This in no way denies an underlying Spiritual reality BTW.
Just as there was a real Judas, a real Jesus, in Revelation during the final 3-1/2 years, there are real Jews, a real land of Israel, real wars, real 2 witnesses etc. etc.
Any other format is Biblically untenable and you end up with incorrigible myth.
This in no way denies an underlying Spiritual reality BTW.
In Biblical Times regarding the Census, there were THREE different Numbering Systems.
1. Counted everyone including Children.
2. Counted adult males only.
3. Counted men and boys.
I used to be in the Prison Ministry. The Muslims always want to trip me up, so they could BLAST the Bible as being false. Several of them tried the trick of quoting the Census in one book, and then in another book they would read even louder, because on the same Census it would have a Different Number. They did not know there were 3 different Numbering Systems.
1. Counted everyone including Children.
2. Counted adult males only.
3. Counted men and boys.
I used to be in the Prison Ministry. The Muslims always want to trip me up, so they could BLAST the Bible as being false. Several of them tried the trick of quoting the Census in one book, and then in another book they would read even louder, because on the same Census it would have a Different Number. They did not know there were 3 different Numbering Systems.
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Ok, yes I think this is fair.
Ok before I share an OT passage, with regard to the passage "there is neither Jew or Gentile", would you agree with the following statement?
The context of the Galatians passage was "righteousness/Justification", not an all-encompassing statement also including property or land ownership.
Galatians 3:6-9, 14, 22, 24-28
Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.
8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”
9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 3:21-24
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Paul is emphasizing that in Messiah all are one and inherit the promise made to Abraham, the promise being that righteousness will be credited to the person by faith alone, clearing their violation of the law. It doesn't matter who they are, if they have faith they will be justified.
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Next, is The Messiah the recipient of all promises? Absolutely. Does it then follow that the body of Christ attains every promise that He has? Collectively, sure. Does it further follow that each individual member of that body receives exactly what every other member of that body receives? Not necessarily.
Proof:
- Parable of the talents = different rewards (Matt 25:14-30)
- Parable of the sower = different yields (Mark 4:20)
- Parable of the vineyard workers = different payment agreements (Matt 20:1-16)
"Why are you angry that I'm generous with my money?"
- Paul's message about differences in gifts (1 Corinthians 12 & Ephesians 4)
There are also different responsibilities given to different members of the body whether Jew or Gentile...
Acts 15:8-10, 19-21
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.
Romans 3:3, 27-31
3 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
All MUST have faith first, but it's the Jew BY faith (as they abide in the law entrusted to them; not to be confused with "works of the law" i.e. animal sacrifices), and the Gentile THROUGH faith (who weren't originally given the law).
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So hopefully I've established a solid foundation that we can agree upon before we dive into an OT promise specifically for Israel.
Ok before I share an OT passage, with regard to the passage "there is neither Jew or Gentile", would you agree with the following statement?
The context of the Galatians passage was "righteousness/Justification", not an all-encompassing statement also including property or land ownership.
Galatians 3:6-9, 14, 22, 24-28
Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.
8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”
9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 3:21-24
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Paul is emphasizing that in Messiah all are one and inherit the promise made to Abraham, the promise being that righteousness will be credited to the person by faith alone, clearing their violation of the law. It doesn't matter who they are, if they have faith they will be justified.
----
Next, is The Messiah the recipient of all promises? Absolutely. Does it then follow that the body of Christ attains every promise that He has? Collectively, sure. Does it further follow that each individual member of that body receives exactly what every other member of that body receives? Not necessarily.
Proof:
- Parable of the talents = different rewards (Matt 25:14-30)
- Parable of the sower = different yields (Mark 4:20)
- Parable of the vineyard workers = different payment agreements (Matt 20:1-16)
"Why are you angry that I'm generous with my money?"
- Paul's message about differences in gifts (1 Corinthians 12 & Ephesians 4)
There are also different responsibilities given to different members of the body whether Jew or Gentile...
Acts 15:8-10, 19-21
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.
Romans 3:3, 27-31
3 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
All MUST have faith first, but it's the Jew BY faith (as they abide in the law entrusted to them; not to be confused with "works of the law" i.e. animal sacrifices), and the Gentile THROUGH faith (who weren't originally given the law).
----
So hopefully I've established a solid foundation that we can agree upon before we dive into an OT promise specifically for Israel.
They said that to Jesus.
The Jews were looking for a worldly kingdom. They missed the big picture, because they failed to see what Jesus was all about
....
Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Don't fall into the same trap as the Jews. Jesus wants to give us a kingdom greater then all the kingdoms of this world and more beautiful then Solomon's temple ever was.
The Jews were looking for a worldly kingdom. They missed the big picture, because they failed to see what Jesus was all about
....
Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Don't fall into the same trap as the Jews. Jesus wants to give us a kingdom greater then all the kingdoms of this world and more beautiful then Solomon's temple ever was.
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What you (and so many others) may fail to comprehend is that ALL PROPHECY will be fulfilled. Literally. Completely.
That is where you start. With facts provided by God Himself.
Fanciful so-called spiritual musings that do not line up with prophecy are practically worthless IMO.
And there is MASSIVE, just ridiculously massive Biblical content and prophecy that clearly defines the future of ISRAEL.
And their future is to inherit the land as a nation, and to worship the God they rejected in Spirit and in truth.
Among many many other things. Like being representatives of God on the earth.....a mandate they likewise abandoned. But shall inevitably fulfill.
That is where you start. With facts provided by God Himself.
Fanciful so-called spiritual musings that do not line up with prophecy are practically worthless IMO.
And there is MASSIVE, just ridiculously massive Biblical content and prophecy that clearly defines the future of ISRAEL.
And their future is to inherit the land as a nation, and to worship the God they rejected in Spirit and in truth.
Among many many other things. Like being representatives of God on the earth.....a mandate they likewise abandoned. But shall inevitably fulfill.
People seem to have a big problem with an earthly Temple. Not so with Jesus.....
Jhn 2:16
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Mat 21:12
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
Jhn 2:16
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Mat 21:12
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
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The belief that all prophesy will be fullfilled literally is what we differ on.
You will interpret all scripture so that this belief is true. I don't..
Show me the evidence that all are literal and unconditional.
Jon 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
You will interpret all scripture so that this belief is true. I don't..
Show me the evidence that all are literal and unconditional.
Jon 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.