I totally get how it pictures salvation. That is a generally accepted view and widely accepted as well: this covering that caused the death and shedding of blood to accomplish is a foreshadowing of the shed righteous blood of Christ as the spotless Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world. I just don't think there is any indication anywhere in Scripture that this act imparted eternal life to Adam and Eve, that they were ever anything more than natural, which is to say this act did not amount to them being supernaturally born again, and I am not aware of this being taught by any. So it is a new idea to me... and it seems to me that we inherit their nature and it is not inherently eternal.
How can this be?
- Thread starter zeland
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
We inherit their sinful nature. But God didn't do these things before they sinned. He did them because they sinned. If it's only a picture for some I can understand that. But the only 2 people that particular blood could have been shed for is them. And the clothing of skins they actually wore.
There is nothing inherently holy or sacred about any animal. Just like there is nothing inherently sacred about bread and wine. But when they are set apart unto God, He does communicate Himself through them spiritually. I personally believe that's what he did with Adam and Eve.
There is nothing inherently holy or sacred about any animal. Just like there is nothing inherently sacred about bread and wine. But when they are set apart unto God, He does communicate Himself through them spiritually. I personally believe that's what he did with Adam and Eve.
An interesting thought generating discussion...
Adam and Eve start out naked and not ashamed but end up clothed and... was their shame then covered with animal skins? Were they clothed in righteousness? Why were they not ashamed even though they were naked in the first place? Did they have either or neither righteousness or/nor unrighteousness initially?
.... and why am I up at this hour?
Adam and Eve start out naked and not ashamed but end up clothed and... was their shame then covered with animal skins? Were they clothed in righteousness? Why were they not ashamed even though they were naked in the first place? Did they have either or neither righteousness or/nor unrighteousness initially?
.... and why am I up at this hour?
-
2
- Show all
Of course God did not do these things before Adam and Eve sinned. I wonder that you feel that even needs to be said. But after they sinned, they lost HIS covering/blessing/fellowship and attempted to hide their shame with leaves. Of course it was paltry and insufficient. It translates to our works not being sufficient. So God made a covering for them, but this covering was only temporary, and it foreshadowed the covering that would come by the seed of a woman in the Person of Jesus Christ. Is there anyone else who teaches that this covering of skins was an act imparting eternal life to Adam and Eve? Some church? Some author? I just wonder where or how you came upon the idea. Why is this animal's skin sufficient to give eternal life when the whole sacrificial system God set up failed to do so? How do you interpret this verse: He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Let me try a different route. And just to be clear, no symbol imparts anything. They merely represent spiritual reality. They can be performed by us both with or without spiritual reality. A man who wears sackcloth and ashes may truly be penitent, or merely practicing a religious act. But when God performs a symbolic act, I believe it is the evidence that the spiritual reality has been performed. When Jesus healed the paralytic man lowered through the roof, did He not also forgive His sins? Healing the man physically didn't produce forgiveness...it pictured it. It was the evidence that it occurred, not the cause.
Water baptism doesn't save anyone. But it is reflective that salvation took place. In like manner, the covering God gave Adam and Eve reveals that God's righteousness is covering them. The actual shedding of the animal's blood doesn't pay their sin debt. It merely demonstrates that God has accepted the sacrifice He provided.
While I believe men can perform symbolic acts void of their reality, I don't believe God does. His purpose in employing symbols is to reveal spiritual reality in terms we can relate to.
As far as how I came to this understanding, I guess it would come from dispersed doctrines in the Bible. I don't recall ever hearing it being taught from a pulpit or in a class. I don't recall it being directly addressed in any books I have read.
I do have questions for you. Do you believe
people in the OT were saved? If so, what does their salvation consist in? Is it different from salvation in the NT? Is salvation for them different in manner or degree?
Water baptism doesn't save anyone. But it is reflective that salvation took place. In like manner, the covering God gave Adam and Eve reveals that God's righteousness is covering them. The actual shedding of the animal's blood doesn't pay their sin debt. It merely demonstrates that God has accepted the sacrifice He provided.
While I believe men can perform symbolic acts void of their reality, I don't believe God does. His purpose in employing symbols is to reveal spiritual reality in terms we can relate to.
As far as how I came to this understanding, I guess it would come from dispersed doctrines in the Bible. I don't recall ever hearing it being taught from a pulpit or in a class. I don't recall it being directly addressed in any books I have read.
I do have questions for you. Do you believe
people in the OT were saved? If so, what does their salvation consist in? Is it different from salvation in the NT? Is salvation for them different in manner or degree?
-
1
- Show all
My apologies for my tardy response; I was at work today and we have been quite busy of late and now it is pretty much my day is done for me. I have been considering what you say as I find it interesting, and I also appreciate you taking the time to explain your view, which I am still chewing on, mulling over, and digesting. I do find that I cannot agree with your proposition of God's movements always conveying a spiritual reality. Not that they don't per se, but that many pointed forward to the reality found in Christ. Meaning, the spiritual was there but yet to come, as a seedling not yet come to fruition. In early Genesis days men began calling on the name of God after Seth was born. That was well after Adam and Eve had been expulsed from the garden. They were expelled because Eve believed Satan over God, and Adam harkened unto the voice of his wife. We are told that Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness. But does that mean that he had already been given eternal life? Nothing in the text suggests it. Job knew he would see the Lord in the flesh post mortem but he did not speak of already possessing eternal life. Mull, mull, mull...
-
1
- Show all
I certainly understand that when ideas that are new to us are presented, that challenge our current understanding, it gives one pause. This is both natural and spiritual. Natural because we have a tendency to resist change, and spiritual because we are cautioned in scripture to test new understandings.
And I think you are on the right track. You began to consider biblical history. But biblical history differs from history. History itself is the story of mankind. Biblical history is the story of God. And, in particular, the story of redemption, or what God has done to reconcile a people to Himself. As such, God concerns Himself to write with this in mind. And like any good writer, God starts at the beginning and slowly unravels His plan. Thus, underlying every event recorded, there lies this purpose.
Since all the promises of God are in Christ, the entire book is about Jesus. This isn't made plain until the second section of the book. But knowing this ahead of time allows us to view the first section through a different lens.
Incidentally, because the Bible is concerned strictly with redemption, God covers the history of creation in a mere two chapters. How glorious creation must have been. To have the grandeur of the event retold in its splendor would have been awesome, but we only get a snippet. So streamlined is the retelling of creation that we find the totality of the creation of the stars summed up in one line...He made also the stars.
I have more to say in a little bit.
And I think you are on the right track. You began to consider biblical history. But biblical history differs from history. History itself is the story of mankind. Biblical history is the story of God. And, in particular, the story of redemption, or what God has done to reconcile a people to Himself. As such, God concerns Himself to write with this in mind. And like any good writer, God starts at the beginning and slowly unravels His plan. Thus, underlying every event recorded, there lies this purpose.
Since all the promises of God are in Christ, the entire book is about Jesus. This isn't made plain until the second section of the book. But knowing this ahead of time allows us to view the first section through a different lens.
Incidentally, because the Bible is concerned strictly with redemption, God covers the history of creation in a mere two chapters. How glorious creation must have been. To have the grandeur of the event retold in its splendor would have been awesome, but we only get a snippet. So streamlined is the retelling of creation that we find the totality of the creation of the stars summed up in one line...He made also the stars.
I have more to say in a little bit.
-
1
- Show all
This is a good example. They hear the truth yet ignore it. So they keep spreading lies. We can read or watch and listen to those that believe prosperity is for today like healing and what not and say "there is no such thing as prosperity gospel in the word of God we do not believe that". So they that accuse make the free choice to keep on accusing them of something they do not believe and use those words to make fun of them and hurt them. Now some don't care since Christian or not some will just get mad hate you if your not like them.
See the truth would be saying "I call it prosperity gospel they do not, they do not believe prosperity gospel since its not written in the bible and they have show 60 verse that talk about prosperity as to why they believe its for today". So again I went searching. So many just copied what someone else said over the years and never looked into it. They could careless. Sorry but "Christians" are still human. Like the huge error name it claim it. People today will talk about that yet will make sure to leave out "we were wrong we repented" things like that were said. I watched it.. so many times over the years. So this is how it still goes on today. People "Christians" do this to Oral Roberts and Billy Graham, John Mac Author, David Wilkerson shall I go on the list is huge. LOL don't think for one second because you don't believe like Word of Faith does.. ooh they will go after you.
Prophet 1930's said in a very big meeting "there are allot of different doctrines here (you know like prosperity, holy spirit, gifts) but not one the one that matters most.". Some knew we can disagree but lets stay focused on Jesus Christ who came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin was buried rose the 3rd day is the only way to the Father. You believe that? I don't care about any thing else.
Read the posts here.. we all know what we personally believe is the real truth and if you do not believe like us...God save you from them. You do wonder why they never say "thousands get saved from their ministry ever month praise GOD! Look what they do when storms, floods, earthquakes, tornados etc hit the truck loads of things they give that I never give. Or how one of them doors open 24/7 to the poor. Then you just never read "so lets be praying for our family". Its ok I have shared this many times and .. strange.. the love for many has waxed cold. Look up love 1st Cor 13 and the fruits. Look at ALL believers and don't condemn don't see faults. See the good and talk about that. If there is some error you get those that know faith and pray for them.
See the truth would be saying "I call it prosperity gospel they do not, they do not believe prosperity gospel since its not written in the bible and they have show 60 verse that talk about prosperity as to why they believe its for today". So again I went searching. So many just copied what someone else said over the years and never looked into it. They could careless. Sorry but "Christians" are still human. Like the huge error name it claim it. People today will talk about that yet will make sure to leave out "we were wrong we repented" things like that were said. I watched it.. so many times over the years. So this is how it still goes on today. People "Christians" do this to Oral Roberts and Billy Graham, John Mac Author, David Wilkerson shall I go on the list is huge. LOL don't think for one second because you don't believe like Word of Faith does.. ooh they will go after you.
Prophet 1930's said in a very big meeting "there are allot of different doctrines here (you know like prosperity, holy spirit, gifts) but not one the one that matters most.". Some knew we can disagree but lets stay focused on Jesus Christ who came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin was buried rose the 3rd day is the only way to the Father. You believe that? I don't care about any thing else.
Read the posts here.. we all know what we personally believe is the real truth and if you do not believe like us...God save you from them. You do wonder why they never say "thousands get saved from their ministry ever month praise GOD! Look what they do when storms, floods, earthquakes, tornados etc hit the truck loads of things they give that I never give. Or how one of them doors open 24/7 to the poor. Then you just never read "so lets be praying for our family". Its ok I have shared this many times and .. strange.. the love for many has waxed cold. Look up love 1st Cor 13 and the fruits. Look at ALL believers and don't condemn don't see faults. See the good and talk about that. If there is some error you get those that know faith and pray for them.
Herein is the problem. Amos 3:3 says, "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" If one of the "Body of Christ" says salvation is by grace and another says by works, who's following the WORD. Each claims they are! Then the "body" is divided. The problem is that ALL in this mystical "body" believe that it is made up of ALL the saved -- people who grew up in various denominations, etc. being taught ALL of the false teaching they have been taught. It's only a win-win situation for Satan.
It is important to seek and hold to truth. Humans have finite intelligence and are prone to pride. The true revelations of God are being interpreted by men who can operate from either their corrupted flesh or their spirit at any time. Men can incorrectly interpret scripture, and for many it is important to them to have a following who rely on them to mediate the truth from God. And many are too lazy and faithless to study and rely on the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture to them, so willingly hand this task over to "pastor-teachers" to do for them. Whether we have arrived at our biblical understanding from man or from God, we are social beings and seek communion with those who are like us in some way, including theologically.
Hence, denominations arise. Some being dogmatic and some being merely preferential in their biblical doctrines.
Hence, denominations arise. Some being dogmatic and some being merely preferential in their biblical doctrines.
I wonder if they weren't just ignorant of it, and only realized it after 'finding out' by the fruit of the tree. As it is written, "For where there is no law, there is no sin."
I mean, didn't God command them, "Be fruitful and multiply"? Yet, they didn't have any children until after they ate. So if you think about it, eating from the tree wasn't the first time they didn't actually 'listen' to God.
I mean, didn't God command them, "Be fruitful and multiply"? Yet, they didn't have any children until after they ate. So if you think about it, eating from the tree wasn't the first time they didn't actually 'listen' to God.