Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture
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Behold I stand at the door and knock. If ANY man hear my voice and open the door I will come into him and will and supp with him and he with me. Rev 3;20.
If Any--- any human on earth.
If Any man hear my voice and open the door--- we have to open the door.
IMO God's grace is the knock. It is available to all. Man's free will opens the door.
That dosent mean our free will saved us as some think it does. God's grace is the knock. Without it there is no door to knock on. There is no choice to even be made. Man's free will to open the door is part of the equation though.
Though grace (the knock,the door, the choice) we are saved by faith ( us opening the door) and faith by hearing (the Bible being read or preached to anyone in the world)
If Any--- any human on earth.
If Any man hear my voice and open the door--- we have to open the door.
IMO God's grace is the knock. It is available to all. Man's free will opens the door.
That dosent mean our free will saved us as some think it does. God's grace is the knock. Without it there is no door to knock on. There is no choice to even be made. Man's free will to open the door is part of the equation though.
Though grace (the knock,the door, the choice) we are saved by faith ( us opening the door) and faith by hearing (the Bible being read or preached to anyone in the world)
It is great to have you join us Lrs, and I agree with your interpretation of John 10:27.
A goal of our study is seeking to understand how Scriptures frequently cited by TULIPists against belief in MFW
can be harmonized.
The first effort/case/couplet of texts and a suggestion regarding how they might be jibed was this:
Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life… nor anything else in all creation,
will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
(versus)
Hebrews 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
(harmonization)
Perhaps “anything else” in Rom. 38-39 refers to powers other than the saint "deliberately" or intentionally sinning
by repudiating his/her saving faith, because Paul presumably wrote both statements and would not contradict himself.
This is an example of the fact that the Bible was NOT written systematically,
so readers need to harmonize various statements regarding topics.
The next/second case/couplets that we are considering now is this:
John 10:27-29 – "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my Father's hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."
(versus)
1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
Now we need suggestions about how these two statements/teachings can be harmonized.
Again, it would be good for this dialectical discussion if we could recruit a reasonable person from the TULIP side of the aisle
to share that POV so we will not be accused of bias, so feel free to invite such a person you have encountered.
So, Jackson, L & studier, please share your ideas about how to jibe both Scriptures. Thanks!
A goal of our study is seeking to understand how Scriptures frequently cited by TULIPists against belief in MFW
can be harmonized.
The first effort/case/couplet of texts and a suggestion regarding how they might be jibed was this:
Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life… nor anything else in all creation,
will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
(versus)
Hebrews 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
(harmonization)
Perhaps “anything else” in Rom. 38-39 refers to powers other than the saint "deliberately" or intentionally sinning
by repudiating his/her saving faith, because Paul presumably wrote both statements and would not contradict himself.
This is an example of the fact that the Bible was NOT written systematically,
so readers need to harmonize various statements regarding topics.
The next/second case/couplets that we are considering now is this:
John 10:27-29 – "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my Father's hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."
(versus)
1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
Now we need suggestions about how these two statements/teachings can be harmonized.
Again, it would be good for this dialectical discussion if we could recruit a reasonable person from the TULIP side of the aisle
to share that POV so we will not be accused of bias, so feel free to invite such a person you have encountered.
So, Jackson, L & studier, please share your ideas about how to jibe both Scriptures. Thanks!
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I see how Rev. 3:20 can be connected with John 10:27-29, "My sheep listen to my voice..."
How can the rest of that passage, ("I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my Father's hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.") be harmonized with the second passage ("1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”)?
How can the rest of that passage, ("I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my Father's hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.") be harmonized with the second passage ("1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”)?
I actually believe this is true because I believe that Paul is talking about as long as we try, do our best, and live for God in every way possible then we have this promise.
I don't think Paul is using this verse in conjunction to once saved always saved even if you live like the devil you will still be saved.
I believe Paul is thinking as long as you live for God and try to be a good example of what a Godly example should be then nothing can separate us from God.
This just seems plain and the only way to reject it is to purposely change the meaning and intent of what is being taught here.
I answered this in my previous post and feel confident about it.
This verse also seems to have the similar John hinting about some responsibilities do fall upon the believers to remain and not remove ourselves from God.
I don't think Paul is using this verse in conjunction to once saved always saved even if you live like the devil you will still be saved.
I believe Paul is thinking as long as you live for God and try to be a good example of what a Godly example should be then nothing can separate us from God.
This just seems plain and the only way to reject it is to purposely change the meaning and intent of what is being taught here.
I answered this in my previous post and feel confident about it.
This verse also seems to have the similar John hinting about some responsibilities do fall upon the believers to remain and not remove ourselves from God.
Okay, but what does the second passage ("1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”) mean?
Do the meanings of both passages (including those you cited such as John 10:28-29) mean the same thing or do they appear somewhat contradictory?
If your answer is the latter, then do you see a way to harmonize the different meanings?
Do the meanings of both passages (including those you cited such as John 10:28-29) mean the same thing or do they appear somewhat contradictory?
If your answer is the latter, then do you see a way to harmonize the different meanings?
I say they are contradictory. I also think God dosent contradict himself. So that to me would mean they are discussing two differnt things or addressing two different issues while sounding similar. If two things won't harmonize it is because at thier core they are differnt. Maybe those two verse groups can't be harmonized.
I agree with your understanding of Rom. 8:38-39 as long as living for God means persevering in saving faith,
because those who accept Jesus as Lord will do their best to obey his command to love everyone.
I understand that you interpret Heb. 10:26-36 to indicate that it is possible for a believer to repudiate his/her
saving faith and thus be justly condemned.
Regarding John 10:27-29, knowing the post # would be helpful.
Regarding 1John 2:24-25, I would say it indicates persevering faith is necessary for salvation,
and I agree that it strongly hints the believer is responsible for continuing to believe.
It is studier's turn to chime in before I share my suggestion for the harmonization of this case/couplet #2.
because those who accept Jesus as Lord will do their best to obey his command to love everyone.
I understand that you interpret Heb. 10:26-36 to indicate that it is possible for a believer to repudiate his/her
saving faith and thus be justly condemned.
Regarding John 10:27-29, knowing the post # would be helpful.
Regarding 1John 2:24-25, I would say it indicates persevering faith is necessary for salvation,
and I agree that it strongly hints the believer is responsible for continuing to believe.
It is studier's turn to chime in before I share my suggestion for the harmonization of this case/couplet #2.
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