Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[LaurenTM]

Wrong. The branch in vs 2 is lifted up and supported [Greek airei from airō (to lift)] if it does not bear fruit and if it does bear fruit the branch is cleansed (wiped clean). Branches are lifted up/supported and/or cleansed so that the branch may bring forth more fruit.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he [airei from airō (to lift)]: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Your understanding of the verse is that only the branch that bears fruit is tended to so that it may bring forth more fruit. The wonderful truth set out in John 15:2 is that the branch that is not bearing fruit and the branch that bears fruit are declared by the Lord Jesus Christ to be in me. Both branches are abiding in the Vine. The Husbandman does not rip the believer (branch) who is abiding in the Lord Jesus Christ away from the Vine.

such a wonderful description in scripture of how God works

it is compelling and and speaks to us of the faithfulness of our God

so sad that the deceitfullness of satan works through some to diminish the beautiful words of Jesus and to cast doubt on God's ability to keep those who are His!

but we know who the victor here is and His Name if FAITHFUL AND TRUE!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

then it was never truly attached to the vine, meaning never truly saved.

This is contradictory. Jesus said the branch was in him.

 

[LaurenTM]

Thinking about the analogy of the vine, it is good to keep in mind that a natural vine does not bear fruit 24/7/365. There are periods of dormancy and, as you pointed out in your earlier post, times when non-fruiting branches are lifted up and tied to trellises.

I do love the tenderness the Father, as Vinedresser, shows to those fragile branches which need support. And, yes, the great Love the Father has toward us is revealed in John 15.

excellent point and should be read several times by each of us

the devil loves to cast doubt and accusations and one that he will use often, especially with those who are already struggling or weaker in faith (prob all have been there at some time) is that 'you are not doing enough' or 'what kind of Christian are you?' and attacks along those lines

thinking of that, isn't that similar to the way certain posters here are attacking people instead of discussing the topic?

when we see this, we should report it. this forum is not for attacking people.

discuss the topic and not the person. again and again, I see those tactics being used and scripture is plain on who the accuser is

well, keep the armor on, and stand firm!!

great posts renewed!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is just a lie. A slander, out of malice, to twist and distort the glorious gospel
of Christ.

So if works based gospel is not based on works. then what is it?

What I find interesting though the above is a distortion, a lie and a slander against
the people of God, we do not mind, in fact we expect it. It is almost like a badge of
honour.

smh

The reason we do not follow OSAS is we know God. How can you doubt His overwhelming
love if you have experienced it.

Yes, thats why I KNOW OSAS is true, Because it is based on Gods overwhelming love. Not on my performance. Only if I had faith my salvation was based on how well I performed would I reject OSAS, Eternal security, Eternal life, whatever you want to call it. .. For there would be no other reason to reject it.

I am actually being serious.

So are we,

God is the creator. He is
the Lord of Lords. If He comes to you, face to face and says I love you, no doctrine or
theology in the world is needed to tell you, you are His.

Yep. Thats why my faith in in him, not my performance. or anything else.

When he says I am his, He means it, When he says he will never let me go, He means it. And no, I am not strong enough to pull away from him, He will chasten me with his love, which is painful, but he will never let me go.

I want to shout this. It booms from the hills, Gods love knows no bounds, His heart goes
to the farthest reaches of hell and says, "I love you. Come to me and I will give you rest."

Most of us have been shouting it, Now we must ask you. When are you going to believe it?

Now righteous deeds are the flow from a thank full heart, a heart that would wash Jesus's
feet with our tears and with our hair. Now those who walk in the Kingdom know of what I
speak. He is our Lord, in the deepest corners of who we are. He has won our hearts.

Yes we do know what this is, It is our new nature It is not something we really have to talk about, because Gods children do this naturally.. Our goal is to win people to Christ, so they too can have this nature.

So this is why we stand as we do, and do not care about OSAS or any other framework.
The promises are the flow of love from God to us to help us in doubt, to lift us up and
say, "I know where you are, be at peace."

This is a false hope. If OSAS/Eternal security is not true, You have no hope you can only have doubt, How can you have hope if you do not know you will even get to heaven, even after years and years of following God.. No wonder the pharisees were so mad, They spent their whole lifetime doing all these works. obeying the law And then here came this Jesus person and told them all that was not good enough..

So rather than a hurtful jibe at us, it just shows Grace7 and the rests lack of faith and
experience of God. In poverty they walk, in a defeated version of faith, with a gospel
that does not lead to victory but a life of continued sin and emptiness, driven by condemnation
and guilt. A sad, pitiable existance.

lol.. Things were going good until you had to attack and bear false witness again, Why do you bother Pete?

1. We are rich in Gods love.

eph 1:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, [SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [SUP]5 [/SUP]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [SUP]6 [/SUP]to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

what more could a person ask for??


2. defeated? If God be for us, who can be against us? where is the defeat? We have victory in Christ.

3. Our gospel leads to life (past tense) and we who have been perfected forever, are continually being sanctified as a work of God. As the bible says, he who began a good work in you WILL CONTINUE it until the day of christ.

4Our faith is in God can his work peter. Not is self righteousness.

It is you who has no hope. and preach no hope.. You hope is in your works.. Our hope and faith is in Christ.

 

[LaurenTM]

I love it..

God said we attack to the vie, and his blood produces fruit.

To say a person would never produce fruit, means God must be week and unable to work in a persons life.

"he who begun a work WILL CONTINUE until the day of christ."

They have to reject verses like this..

attach to the vine

.. Gotta love spell check!

haha...I corrected some 'doozies' last night

just had windows 10 updates on my laptop...now it thinks I don't know what I really want to say

changing settings and putting spellcheck in the corner where he can think about his bad behavior

 

[ladylynn]

I believe repentance is more than just a one time thing. Refusal to repent whenever Spirit shows me my sin adds up to rebellion. This is how losing salvation happens. No one plucked me out of my Father's hand. He did not forsake me. I willfully chose to jump ship. No one to blame but me.

This is not just to you personally oyster But put out there generally to all those that I have heard say much the same words you wrote here about God being able to keep us in the palm of His hand ...but... we... can... jump... out of His hand.

I see these silly little frogs actually firmly believing they are jumping out of a dangerous hand to freedom because they are scared., when in fact they are jumping from a safe hand to their last moments before death takes their little green bodies as they crash to the hard concrete. SPLATTT!! Does God know we are that foolish?? YES!!!!!!! and has already provided for the times of our inability.

Don't you guys know WE are our worst enemies!!?? Haven't you guys ever seen the ugliness and utter incapability of your flesh and how the devil knows how to deceive us humans (Adam and Eve were much smarter than us) Have you ever considered the fact that if we are not abiding we are prone to being a devour-able 'snack' for our adversary while here on earth?

Actually many Christian's lives have been shipwrecked as far as their living successfully on earth and their ability to get out of the sinking ship they made of their lives by their continuing to believe the accuser of the brethren instead of the gracious love of God that sent His Son.

Don't you KNOW your flesh is against your spirit and vs/vs and in order to continue to work with the wonderful gift of a "sound mind" we must walk with our Savior., following Him as needy sheep follow a Good and faithful Shepherd Who gave His life for His sheep. Safety is found only in following and abiding with the Shepherd. It takes a few hurtful stinging bites out of your life sometimes from a ravenous wolf to keep the sheep close to the Shepherd to see that "yes.,wow., He does really love me and protect and keep me." (SHOCKER) He really meant what He said in the Bible!!

There are millions of Christians who are not all they can be because they don't believe the Good Shepherd will actually take care of them. They miss so many promises they could have had for lack of abiding by faith believing Jesus is for them not against them. Maybe it was for lack of hearing right teaching about the Good Shepherd? Perhaps it is because of a Christians lack of being available to hear the Holy Spirit speak to them through the Word because they have been too busy fixing their own Christian lives to make themselves presentable....instead of believing ONLY Christ makes them presentable.

For lack of practicing His presence and then since they lack that practice, they don't KNOW the voice of the Lord vs their own idea of the Lord. Quite often what people say is the Lord's will, is only their will with lot's of Bible verses. (so far are they deceived into thinking it is their goodness when it is their pride.) This is our condition as long as we are IN these flesh suits listening to the mind of the flesh.

That is why our main job as believers;sons;saints is to put on the mind of Christ every day. If Christians do not know how prone to wander they are., even as the old hymn from the 'olden days' goes...Prone to wander Lord I feel it ... prone to leave the God I love. Take my heart oh take and seal it seal it for thy courts above....

Without the knowledge of the full salvation that Jesus bought and paid for with His blood because of the love with which the Father loved us., we will be and many ARE at a HUGE disadvantage. He knows our frame that we are but 'dust' in our knowledge... but on the other side of this and IN REALITY WE HAVE BEEN REMADE; IN HIM we can mount with wings as eagles., we can run and not be weary., we keep on going without fainting. But we only have this power to live the Christian life when and IF we abide and our minds are daily being renewed.

Otherwise we are just going to be nominal Christians with tons of promises never opened and used. Having tons of emotional "issues" living a powerless joyless carnal life., where our religious acts are seen by others and us and are enough. yeeesshhhh So many believers have never allowed the Holy Spirit to take their infantile minds and make them over.

So by the time we get to heaven we will be very sad and regretful we didn't develop more those minds that could have been renewed/matured. They could have not only thought the truth, but walked in it and lived it. And then while they could have been living His truth could have given Him the crowns He deserved to lay at His feet when they finally met Him face to face.

But because while many Christians were here on earth., they didn't believe and have faith in Him that He had grace ENOUGH for them to daily go to Him unhindered by the flesh and the devil OR ANY OTHER THING.

Many Christians today are being deceived by the enemy into believing God doesn't love them enough to love them while they are not perfected in their flesh. That their flesh (what they see most) had to be clean first before they went to Him. When in fact., God sees His Son's righteousness on us and we are always/always accepted IN THE BELOVED. (not in and of ourselves) as so many are trying to do here by their flesh. Even Paul said something to the effect about 'are you now, after being made perfect by His grace trying to make yourself perfect by your flesh??

And I also wonder how many took the salvation offered in the Bible and are basing it on their ability to be 'spiritual' enough to see. When in fact it took God to open our eyes? Jesus gets alllllll the credit and allllll the glory and alllll the praise and alllllll appreciation for our redemption.

It doesn't go like this:

"Jesus paid it allll!! and meeee
alllll to Him I owe.. and meeee

sin had left a crimson stain.... and weeee

washed it white as snow."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

haha...I corrected some 'doozies' last night

just had windows 10 updates on my laptop...now it thinks I don't know what I really want to say

changing settings and putting spellcheck in the corner where he can think about his bad behavior

yeah I am not to happy with Windows ten

 

[CS1]

After I have seen many post by three others and I have yet to see any of you three comply with not making things personal and continuing to highjack threads or start thread on only what appears to be one or two subject matters: "Losing your salvation or eternal security." There is no way any MOD could go through all of what about three of you do each time you post. there is blame on all.

Attacks , name calling , and insults continue by those who say they are Christians yet they talk about how one can or can not lose there salvation and say they are Christians ...

 

[PennEd]

I have come to the utter most conclusion that the doctrine of believing that you can lose your salvation is one the, if not THE, most destructive doctrine infecting the body. I pray in Jesus name, and with all the strength my soul can muster, that my brothers and sisters in Christ will be free from the inevitable condemnation that the fruit of that doctrine bears, and embrace the Truth that IT IS FINISHED! And rest in Jesus with that knowledge. Peace love and Grace to you all.

 

[Grandpa]

I have come to the utter most conclusion that the doctrine of believing that you can lose your salvation is one the, if not THE, most destructive doctrine infecting the body. I pray in Jesus name, and with all the strength my soul can muster, that my brothers and sisters in Christ will be free from the inevitable condemnation that the fruit of that doctrine bears, and embrace the Truth that IT IS FINISHED! And rest in Jesus with that knowledge. Peace love and Grace to you all.

I think this is why the bible says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Not because you are scared that it is a fragile thing. But so you will know beyond doubt that you are saved. Past, present and future.

Jeremiah 33:9 And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.

 

[Chester]

I have come to the utter most conclusion that the doctrine of believing that you can lose your salvation is one the, if not THE, most destructive doctrine infecting the body. I pray in Jesus name, and with all the strength my soul can muster, that my brothers and sisters in Christ will be free from the inevitable condemnation that the fruit of that doctrine bears, and embrace the Truth that IT IS FINISHED! And rest in Jesus with that knowledge. Peace love and Grace to you all.

I accept your point of view. All I can do is testify of my own journey.

"inevitable condemnation" - ??? I believe am saved because I have faith in Jesus Christ at this moment and I am clinging to His death and resurrection for salvation. I am not sure how this brings "inevitable condemnation" - is hasn't brought any condemnation into my life.

To me and my experience - believing in OSAS brings condemnation because when I do wrong/sin then it might be evidence that I was never really born again in the first place ???

Maybe your comments here were for those that believe it is works that keep a person saved - and I can agree that this view would seem to lead to condemnation. My opinion.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Why do some people fear the notion that Father, as Husbandman, would lift up and support those who are not bearing fruit (weak) so they may be strengthened and bring forth the fruit of the Vine?

What if it never brings forth fruit?

I do not believe it is possible for the believer to abide in the Lord Jesus Christ and not have the fruit of abiding exhibited in his/her life.

I do believe there are times when the fruit is not in evidence for various reasons. This has been my experience in my life. There have been times when I was under attack from the adversary and it was all I could do to get up in the morning and go through my day. There was very little, if any, fruit in my life. The only evidence I had in my life was the assurance that I was held firmly in the Hand of the Father and He would see me through. I suppose that could be considered "fruit", but I believe John 15 speaks of bringing forth much fruit (John 15:5).

When we are under attack from the adversary, we do not feel as if there is much of the Lord Jesus Christ in evidence in our lives, but rather a turning toward Father and the Lord Jesus Christ to have Them fight on our behalf, and all we can do is be still, knowing that we are in Christ and He is in us.

And after a period of time the devil leaves (James 4:7-8 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh unto God and He will draw nigh to you).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

then it was never truly attached to the vine, meaning never truly saved.

This is contradictory. Jesus said the branch was in him.

Yes, Jesus said the branch was in Him.

So why would Father remove the branch that is doing exactly as instructed by the Lord Jesus Christ? Could it be that we have been misled to believe the Husbandman would remove that branch? Could it be that the Husbandman would work in the branch to support the branch so that the branch could receive the nutrients from the Vine necessary to bring forth fruit? Something to think about.

 

[LaurenTM]

I accept your point of view. All I can do is testify of my own journey.

"inevitable condemnation" - ??? I believe am saved because I have faith in Jesus Christ at this moment and I am clinging to His death and resurrection for salvation. I am not sure how this brings "inevitable condemnation" - is hasn't brought any condemnation into my life.

To me and my experience - believing in OSAS brings condemnation because when I do wrong/sin then it might be evidence that I was never really born again in the first place ???

Maybe your comments here were for those that believe it is works that keep a person saved - and I can agree that this view would seem to lead to condemnation. My opinion.

Hey Chester

I think you have misunderstood PennEd's post

he disagrees with the works + grace = salvation theory

read it again

 

[Chester]

Hey Chester

I think you have misunderstood PennEd's post

he disagrees with the works + grace = salvation theory

read it again

Maybe so . . . but he does say - "the doctrine of believing that you can lose your salvation is one the, if not THE, most destructive doctrine infecting the body."

I believe a person can lose their salvation - but to me this is not equivalent to the works + grace = salvation theory

Maybe you can clarify, Mr. "PennEd"?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe so . . . but he does say - "the doctrine of believing that you can lose your salvation is one the, if not THE, most destructive doctrine infecting the body."

I believe a person can lose their salvation - but to me this is not equivalent to the works + grace = salvation theory

Maybe you can clarify, Mr. "PennEd"?

I am confused,

If A person can lose a gift, Does that not mean by its very definition, that it is not a gift at all. But a reward based on works (we must work to keep it)?

 

[PennEd]

I accept your point of view. All I can do is testify of my own journey.

"inevitable condemnation" - ??? I believe am saved because I have faith in Jesus Christ at this moment and I am clinging to His death and resurrection for salvation. I am not sure how this brings "inevitable condemnation" - is hasn't brought any condemnation into my life.

To me and my experience - believing in OSAS brings condemnation because when I do wrong/sin then it might be evidence that I was never really born again in the first place ???

Maybe your comments here were for those that believe it is works that keep a person saved - and I can agree that this view would seem to lead to condemnation. My opinion.

I'm truly sorry. I can't unravel you're thinking. Without assurance of Salvation through Christ's FINISHED work on the cross, the condemnation comes not knowing if the NEXT sin is the landmine that blows apart your eternal future. That's an ugly and fearful way to live for Christ.

 

[Chester]

I am confused,

If A person can lose a gift, Does that not mean by its very definition, that it is not a gift at all. But a reward based on works (we must work to keep it)?

So if I am saved by grace through faith . . is that a works salvation?
So then if I stay saved by grace through faith . . . is that a works salvation?

I answer both of those questions - no!

How would you answer them?

I prefer not to get into the "gift" discussion here because I don't think it will help . . .

I think I am just asking if you can take at face value that I believe that salvation can be lost if faith is lost in Jesus Christ. And that I can believe this without believing in a works salvation.


I am OK if you think I am deluded and just not very "with it" with the OSAS issue. But can you accept that I do not believe in a works salvation?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So if I am saved by grace through faith . . is that a works salvation?
So then if I stay saved by grace through faith . . . is that a works salvation?

I answer both of those questions - no!

How would you answer them?

of course not, It is by Grace,, You did nothing to earn it, Or lose it.

I prefer not to get into the "gift" discussion here because I don't think it will help . . .

I think I am just asking if you can take at face value that I believe that salvation can be lost if faith is lost in Jesus Christ. And that I can believe this without believing in a works salvation.

In this case, One must (work) to maintainnt faith. And it was not a faith in God to begin with..

I am OK if you think I am deluded and just not very "with it" with the OSAS issue. But can you accept that I do not believe in a works salvation?

If salvation can be lost,, it must be earned.

Thats my point.

 

[Chester]

I'm truly sorry. I can't unravel you're thinking. Without assurance of Salvation through Christ's FINISHED work on the cross, the condemnation comes not knowing if the NEXT sin is the landmine that blows apart your eternal future. That's an ugly and fearful way to live for Christ.

I agree that not knowing if the NEXT sin is the landmine that blows apart your eternal future -- that would be an ugly and fearful way to live! I just don't live that way at all! NOT EVEN CLOSE!

I believe forgiveness is moment by moment - if I sin (and sadly I do sometimes!) then I am forgiven at that moment in time. I know that some who believe "salvation can be lost" teach that every sin (or the "big" sins" at least") will cut you off from God's salvation -- I assume this is what you react against - and I agree!

But God forgives 70 x 7 and way beyond that number (He does not keep track!).


So, yes, my assurance of salvation comes through Christ's finished work on the cross. And I can tell from your posts that yours does too!

I guess I can't unravel your thinking either - but that's OK - we will keep trying . . .