Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[UnderGrace]

it's always about hell and damnation and taking scriptures addressed to non believers and twisting them to make it seem God is a big tease and dangles salvation like a carrot on a stick. go little donkey, walk on, and maybe, maybe one day, I'll let you have that carrot

I think David understood what you are saying very well and he was pre-Christ

he continually praised God for all God did for him and knew that God was his stronghold and tower of refuge in the here and now.

He also said, against you and you only have I sinned. He didn't take God for granted and neither do we

there is not such thing as living a sinless life. we run towards the mark as Paul said. being with God and resurrected to be with Him, is the completion of what He has begun in us, in those who believe, right now, right here

mess that up, and you end up with a split personality

no wonder God says that we must come to Him without doubt. this revolving door salvation has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is a fabricated doctrine created to create doubt and resentment in God

the same ole lie...has God really said...wearing new clothes...or maybe it's the Emperor's clothes

Amen Sister!! I needed to read this...people keep trying to take away my rest in Jesus. He has promised me to win...I do not want a split personality for sure. LOL

 

[reneweddaybyday]

taketh away is incorrect the correct word is lift up that airei has airō (to lift) as its root rather than aireō (to catch, take away)
(if you research you will find out that this is correct)

As the daughter of a farmer I know exactly what Jesus is talking about here, I have seen myself many times.

Jesus is indicating what actually occurred during the Spring, namely, certain non-fruiting branches were "lifted up": (to keep them from touching the ground and setting roots) and tied to trellises along with the fruiting branches while the side shoots of the fruiting branches were being "cleaned up."

Doing this allows the non-fruiting branches to grow with full vigor with the flow of nutrients from the roots to the branches which would produce more fruit the following season. By removing them from the ground and placing them on the trellis the rows of plant benefit from aeration that is very important for proper fruit development.

That is my understanding also. The Husbandman (Father) lifts up and supports the branch so that the branch can bear the fruit of the Vine (the Lord Jesus Christ).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

... you do not "lift up" a branch to take it away to be burned. Sorry, the context of the message proves the branches are not being lifted up, but taken away to be burned.

Wrong. The branch in vs 2 is lifted up and supported [Greek airei from airō (to lift)] if it does not bear fruit and if it does bear fruit the branch is cleansed (wiped clean). Branches are lifted up/supported and/or cleansed so that the branch may bring forth more fruit.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he [airei from airō (to lift)]: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Your understanding of the verse is that only the branch that bears fruit is tended to so that it may bring forth more fruit. The wonderful truth set out in John 15:2 is that the branch that is not bearing fruit and the branch that bears fruit are declared by the Lord Jesus Christ to be in me. Both branches are abiding in the Vine. The Husbandman does not rip the believer (branch) who is abiding in the Lord Jesus Christ away from the Vine.

 

[UnderGrace]

Wrong. The branch in vs 2 is lifted up and supported [Greek airei from airō (to lift)] if it does not bear fruit and if it does bear fruit the branch is cleansed (wiped clean). Branches are lifted up/supported and/or cleansed so that the branch may bring forth more fruit.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he [airei from airō (to lift)]: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Your understanding of the verse is that only the branch that bears fruit is tended to so that it may bring forth more fruit. The wonderful truth set out in John 15:2 is that the branch that is not bearing fruit and the branch that bears fruit are declared by the Lord Jesus Christ to be in me. Both branches are abiding in the Vine. The Husbandman does not rip the believer (branch) who is abiding in the Lord Jesus Christ away from the Vine.

I like the way you have explained this.

When I read it I just so taken by what a loving Father we have, that even when we are struggling not bearing fruit He lifts us up, which I am sure is different for each one of us, so that we can have better access to the Son to bear fruit just like a plant would have better access to the sun and the vine when it is raised upwards.

Once again this can only be understood from the perspective of the great Love the Father has towards us.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

When I read it I just so taken by what a loving Father we have, that even when we are struggling not bearing fruit He lifts us up, which I am sure is different for each one of us, so that we can have better access to the Son to bear fruit just like a plant would have better access to the sun and the vine when it is raised upwards.

Once again this can only be understood from the perspective of the great Love the Father has towards us.

Thinking about the analogy of the vine, it is good to keep in mind that a natural vine does not bear fruit 24/7/365. There are periods of dormancy and, as you pointed out in your earlier post, times when non-fruiting branches are lifted up and tied to trellises.

I do love the tenderness the Father, as Vinedresser, shows to those fragile branches which need support. And, yes, the great Love the Father has toward us is revealed in John 15.

 

[Cee]

The reward for fruit is pruning. Also notice He cleans us with His word.

 

[PeterJens]

Amen...works-based salvationists see through the "lens" of always losing your salvation if you don't perform your own "righteous deeds " and so they see every scripture as saying that to them.

This is just a lie. A slander, out of malice, to twist and distort the glorious gospel
of Christ.

What I find interesting though the above is a distortion, a lie and a slander against
the people of God, we do not mind, in fact we expect it. It is almost like a badge of
honour.

The reason we do not follow OSAS is we know God. How can you doubt His overwhelming
love if you have experienced it. I am actually being serious. God is the creator. He is
the Lord of Lords. If He comes to you, face to face and says I love you, no doctrine or
theology in the world is needed to tell you, you are His.

I want to shout this. It booms from the hills, Gods love knows no bounds, His heart goes
to the farthest reaches of hell and says, "I love you. Come to me and I will give you rest."

Now righteous deeds are the flow from a thank full heart, a heart that would wash Jesus's
feet with our tears and with our hair. Now those who walk in the Kingdom know of what I
speak. He is our Lord, in the deepest corners of who we are. He has won our hearts.

So this is why we stand as we do, and do not care about OSAS or any other framework.
The promises are the flow of love from God to us to help us in doubt, to lift us up and
say, "I know where you are, be at peace."

So rather than a hurtful jibe at us, it just shows Grace7 and the rests lack of faith and
experience of God. In poverty they walk, in a defeated version of faith, with a gospel
that does not lead to victory but a life of continued sin and emptiness, driven by condemnation
and guilt. A sad, pitiable existance.

 

[Grace777x70]

And this below is the difference between "works righteousness" and faith righteousness for salvation. ( as in going to be with the Lord when we die )

In the Old - you "did in order to get" In the New Covenant " you believe in order to receive" what Christ has already done. It's called the "word of faith" and it's enacted by speaking.

This is where works-based salvationists have a hard time with the gospel of the grace of Christ alone for salvation. They are mixing the covenants up and trying to do things in order to get and maintain salvation.

The pure gospel of the grace of Christ is offensive to this mindset and thus they need to do things in order to establish and maintain their own righteousness for salvation just like it was commanded in the Old Covenant.

In the New Covenant we receive Christ's righteousness because we believe NOT because "we do".

I have posted this at least 20x times in the past and many others have said the exact same thing in many ways but I'll do it once more so that you can have it as a record again and hopefully show what is really being said.

Doing righteous deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. This is having the cart before the horse.

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".

Here is how righteousness is manifested to a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we are a new creation in Christ now!

This "righteousness " that we already have now in our new creation ( the inner man ) is because we are in Christ - will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and sin not..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21[/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells.

Good works can be done in the flesh ( 1 Cor 13 ) or by the love of God flowing from our spirits to a hurt and dying world. They look the same outwardly but only God can look on the heart and all these "good works" will be tried by fire to see where they were originated from - our own flesh or the Spirit of God within us.

 

[God4me]

And this below is the difference between "works righteousness" and faith righteousness for salvation. ( as in going to be with the Lord when we die )

In the Old - you "did in order to get" In the New Covenant " you believe in order to receive" what Christ has already done. It's called the "word of faith" and it's enacted by speaking.

This is where works-based salvationists have a hard time with the gospel of the grace of Christ alone for salvation. They are mixing the covenants up and trying to do things in order to get and maintain salvation.

The pure gospel of the grace of Christ is offensive to this mindset and thus they need to do things in order to establish and maintain their own righteousness for salvation just like it was commanded in the Old Covenant.

In the New Covenant we receive Christ's righteousness because we believe NOT because "we do".

I have posted this at least 20x times in the past and many others have said the exact same thing in many ways but I'll do it once more so that you can have it as a record again and hopefully show what is really being said.

Doing righteous deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. This is having the cart before the horse.

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".

Here is how righteousness is manifested to a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we are a new creation in Christ now!

This "righteousness " that we already have now in our new creation ( the inner man ) is because we are in Christ - will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and sin not..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21[/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells.

Good works can be done in the flesh ( 1 Cor 13 ) or by the love of God flowing from our spirits to a hurt and dying world. They look the same outwardly but only God can look on the heart and all these "good works" will be tried by fire to see where they were originated from - our own flesh or the Spirit of God within us.

You said,

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells.

[End quote].
You know that's not true, You know come people aren't living "Holy new creation lives"

 

[Grace777x70]

You said,

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells.

[End quote].
You know that's not true, You know come people aren't living "Holy new creation lives"

Christians are at different places in maturity which is why it is important to teach them the grace of God for it teaches us how to live godly in this present world. Teach them how to behold the glory of the Lord as 2 Cor. 3:17-18 shows us will help them to grow up in Him.

Getting our minds renewed by the transformation of the Holy Spirit is what is needed for all of us to grow up in Christ.

Here are some signs of a baby Christian ( which could be someone that has been in Christ for 50 years, and reads the bible every day, goes to church every time the doors are open, prays 5 hours a day..etc. )

So, even when these baby Christians are "acting up" by slandering and having malice - name-calling etc. towards others in the body of Christ.

These precious ones are still "in Christ" - they just have not grown up yet in the Lord. ( They may not do the "biggie sins" like stealing, adultery, murder, but have no problem doing what Peter says below )

1 Peter 2:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.

 

[PeterJens]

I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.
John 15:1-2

I find it interesting this idea cutting off a branch that does not bear fruit is a problem for some.

This is just an analogy. Jesus is saying if you abide you will have fruit that shows what has
been done within you. If you have no change, then nothing has come about in your life.

Why do people fear this? This is not an exam, with a pass or fail mark. God is doing a good work
in you, just walk in the love He provides. So many feel rejection because that is what they have
in the world, they are not appreciated for just being who they are, a valuable precious person.

Jesus is emphasising abiding in Him and His word is crucial to life. This is not an added extra but
is who we are. It is also reassurance that God will do the work He has set out, just listen and obey.

 

[PeterJens]

In the Old - you "did in order to get" In the New Covenant " you believe in order to receive" what Christ has already done. It's called the "word of faith" and it's enacted by speaking.

Here is the lie "Doing in order to get". This has never been the case. God describes how
behaviour leads to rewards, but the behaviour in itself is good, you do not do it just to be
rewarded.

It has always been the powered by the same realities. Knowing God, walking
in communion with Him leads to everything.

In Jesus it is easier to see Gods heart and desire.

In the old covenant though Gods heart is there, fire, holiness, the terms in the law, justice,
sacrifices where very much in evidence. This is the context of God, and the problem of man
trying to obey a distant God, when their hearts are far from Him, impossible. A few found
God in close communion, but most found this all too difficult.

Now HG want to claim the mystic version and heresy about repentance and confession, sin being
forgiven in the future do not change the spiritual realities. They are just as lost as those who are
in the world because walking righteously and in purity is not their hearts desire, rather just to rest
and do what comes naturally. And 99% of the time the natural is sinful.

But they destroy the very things that would help them see in the light, conscience and conviction of
sin. And they attack anyone who talks about righteousness, and holiness as if they are enemies, which
shows their spiritual foundations and lies which they are happy to infect in their followers.

And so the disputes continue, and the denial of real hard conclusions, and softening an judgement or
problems that God will bring as a result of blatant sin among His people.

It is why we oppose them, and bring balance. But His sheep hear His voice and listen when He
calls. So much more powerful is the overflowing love of God, they will be washed away.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

This is just an analogy. Jesus is saying if you abide you will have fruit that shows what has
been done within you. If you have no change, then nothing has come about in your life.

Yes, it is an analogy.

So, in your analogy the Father cuts off the branch in me (the Lord Jesus Christ)? It is clear from the verse that the branch that is not bearing fruit is in me (the Lord Jesus Christ).

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he [airei, from airo (to lift)]: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Why do people fear this?

Why do some people fear the notion that Father, as Husbandman, would lift up and support those who are not bearing fruit (weak) so they may be strengthened and bring forth the fruit of the Vine?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Why do some people fear the notion that Father, as Husbandman, would lift up and support those who are not bearing fruit (weak) so they may be strengthened and bring forth the fruit of the Vine?

What if it never brings forth fruit?

 

[FreeNChrist]

What if it never brings forth fruit?

A fruitless life is a wasted life.

 

[gb9]

What if it never brings forth fruit?

then it was never truly attached to the vine, meaning never truly saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

then it was never truly attached to the vine, meaning never truly saved.

I love it..

God said we attack to the vie, and his blood produces fruit.

To say a person would never produce fruit, means God must be week and unable to work in a persons life.

"he who begun a work WILL CONTINUE until the day of christ."

They have to reject verses like this..

 

[FreeNChrist]

THE ROOT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS


A sinful soul possesses no inherent power to live righteously. There are no natural virtues. All graciousness of character, wherever found, is the outgrowth of life which He imparts.

Claiming to be the Power from which all righteousness proceeds, Christ declares to sinful men, "Apart from me," that is separated from me, "ye can do nothing." His words are to be taken in the most absolute sense. Apart from Him, the living Vine, no one possesses a particle of fruit-bearing power. Apart from Him no one can produce, in any measure, the fruits of righteousness. Every holy life is a branch in the True Vine, and is fed from His out-flowing sap. He is the power in man that incites to righteousness, the power that makes for righteousness, the power that makes righteousness. Humanity is as dependent upon Him for spiritual life, as the branch is dependent upon the tree, the tree upon the soil, the river upon the fountain, the animal upon the air, the planet upon the sun.

The best that man can possibly produce by himself is an outward, mechanical righteousness a righteousness worthless as "filthy rags;" but a vital, spiritual righteousness a righteousness acceptable to God, is possible to him only as his spirit is penetrated and pervaded by the Spirit of Christ.

Those who become partakers of His Spirit become "partakers of His holiness." They are inspired to seek after, and empowered to attain, that ideal righteousness embodied in His life. From the inflow of His love into their hearts results the outflow of His righteousness in their lives. Yielding themselves up to the holy impulses which come from Him, "moving them on to noble ends, "they are "made the righteousness of God in Him."

The blissful effect of the realization by the believer of the indwelling Christ as the inward law and power of righteousness is thus stated by St. Paul, "If Christ is in you, the body is dead, because of sin; but the spirit is life, because of righteousness." (Rom. 8:10)

Of His presence as of His righteousness there shall be no end. The righteousness which He has brought in for us, and which He is working out in us, is an "everlasting righteousness."


James M. Campbell, The Indwelling Christ. 1895

 

[HisHolly]

The spirit gives life.. Pray for their understanding.. All words do is add up
I do love to read what everyone has to say but one will never win in our realm alone..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I love it..

God said we attack to the vie, and his blood produces fruit.

To say a person would never produce fruit, means God must be week and unable to work in a persons life.

"he who begun a work WILL CONTINUE until the day of christ."

They have to reject verses like this..

attach to the vine

.. Gotta love spell check!