Has the pre trib rapture belief alienated a whole group of people against each other
- Thread starter Fundaamental
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
It will take understanding.
He spoke these words as Jesus: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father". But Jesus died and was raised, becoming the Christ, a life-giving Spirit. His nature, then, transcended time and space. For example, while it was not possible to include all believers in Jesus as His body, because He was a singular man with one body, it is now possible to include all believers in Christ.
But let's look at a couple things:
First, what was said is "No one knows..." This is present tense. As in "no one knows at this time". So, who doesn't know, He said no one (man), angels, nor the Son; so even He did not know. He did not know as Jesus. Only the Father knew.
Let's look at something the Holy Spirit revealed to John:
Revelation 1: "This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw."
So, right away we see that this is the revelation of Jesus Christ given to Him by God. AND THEN, we see that it was given to an angel to give to John.
Jesus said "No one (man) knows, not the angels, not the Son only God. So...
No man > no angel > no Son > only God.
But Revelation 1 reverses the order of Jesus' words. In this instance, Jesus who is now the Christ, gives it to an angel to give to John.
But how did Christ get it? From the Father.
When Jesus addressed His departure, He comforted the disciples with many words.
In John 16 this is recorded:
"He (the Father) will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you."
Jesus knew His Father was about to glorify Him with the glory He had in the beginning. He also knew that all the Father had was His inheritance and that He (Jesus) was about to receive all the Father had.
Well, the Father knew the Day. So, Jesus, as the Christ, is about to receive the knowledge of the Day.
So, when He originally spoke "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" He was telling the truth, He did not know.
But now that He was going to the Father to inherit all the Father had, the revelation of the Day would be given to Him.
So, the original order was no man > no angel > no Son > only God.
But, now from heaven, through an angel, Christ gives the revelation to a man, John.
"This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw."
God gives to the >Son gives to the angels >gives to man. This is a complete reversal of the order. The circle is complete.
But if that isn't enough, here is 1 Thessalonians 5
"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
But you, brothers, are not in the darkness...
(So he's making a comparison between two camps: those who ARE in darkness and those who ARE NOT in darkness)
..so that this day should overtake you like a thief. For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober."
We are NOT like those who live in darkness. Therefore, the Day of His return will not overtake us like a thief.
Conclusion: we do not presently know the day but WE WILL KNOW THE DAY. No one will know in enough time to write a book about it or to get rich off of it, but those who remain sober and awake, in the Lord, will not be surprised.
He spoke these words as Jesus: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father". But Jesus died and was raised, becoming the Christ, a life-giving Spirit. His nature, then, transcended time and space. For example, while it was not possible to include all believers in Jesus as His body, because He was a singular man with one body, it is now possible to include all believers in Christ.
But let's look at a couple things:
First, what was said is "No one knows..." This is present tense. As in "no one knows at this time". So, who doesn't know, He said no one (man), angels, nor the Son; so even He did not know. He did not know as Jesus. Only the Father knew.
Let's look at something the Holy Spirit revealed to John:
Revelation 1: "This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw."
So, right away we see that this is the revelation of Jesus Christ given to Him by God. AND THEN, we see that it was given to an angel to give to John.
Jesus said "No one (man) knows, not the angels, not the Son only God. So...
No man > no angel > no Son > only God.
But Revelation 1 reverses the order of Jesus' words. In this instance, Jesus who is now the Christ, gives it to an angel to give to John.
But how did Christ get it? From the Father.
When Jesus addressed His departure, He comforted the disciples with many words.
In John 16 this is recorded:
"He (the Father) will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you."
Jesus knew His Father was about to glorify Him with the glory He had in the beginning. He also knew that all the Father had was His inheritance and that He (Jesus) was about to receive all the Father had.
Well, the Father knew the Day. So, Jesus, as the Christ, is about to receive the knowledge of the Day.
So, when He originally spoke "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" He was telling the truth, He did not know.
But now that He was going to the Father to inherit all the Father had, the revelation of the Day would be given to Him.
So, the original order was no man > no angel > no Son > only God.
But, now from heaven, through an angel, Christ gives the revelation to a man, John.
"This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw."
God gives to the >Son gives to the angels >gives to man. This is a complete reversal of the order. The circle is complete.
But if that isn't enough, here is 1 Thessalonians 5
"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
But you, brothers, are not in the darkness...
(So he's making a comparison between two camps: those who ARE in darkness and those who ARE NOT in darkness)
..so that this day should overtake you like a thief. For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober."
We are NOT like those who live in darkness. Therefore, the Day of His return will not overtake us like a thief.
Conclusion: we do not presently know the day but WE WILL KNOW THE DAY. No one will know in enough time to write a book about it or to get rich off of it, but those who remain sober and awake, in the Lord, will not be surprised.
No, Pre-Tribbers were never deceived, so for you to make such a statement simply adds fuel to the fire. [Also you will need to make sure your spell checker is working, since I am leaving your quote as is].
Date setting was always foolish, and after the Millerite fiasco, no one should have been setting any dates. It is because of all the peripheral foolishness that the real significance of the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture gets ignored. And this should never have become a bone of contention had people sat down and soberly concluded that only a Pre-Tribulation Rapture fits into the biblical framework.
Date setting was always foolish, and after the Millerite fiasco, no one should have been setting any dates. It is because of all the peripheral foolishness that the real significance of the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture gets ignored. And this should never have become a bone of contention had people sat down and soberly concluded that only a Pre-Tribulation Rapture fits into the biblical framework.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Hi! Anyone with any view can think they are better than anyone else. I believe that the Bible shows us the pre-trib rapture. One key that I have found indispensable to understanding is to view every verse in the Bible through a dispensational lens. Without viewing scripture through this lens, anyone can say that a certain verse means anything they decide, and that it applies to anyone they decide. That makes a Christian very susceptible to false teaching, which could even hurt the foundation of their faith. It’s one reason why we see so many “deconstructing” their faith now…to the point where they no longer believe in the Deity of Christ!
Here is a video that is well worth your time to watch and take notes on. Check your Bible and see for yourself. It’s very plain through that dispensational lens. Peace to you all
Here is a video that is well worth your time to watch and take notes on. Check your Bible and see for yourself. It’s very plain through that dispensational lens. Peace to you all
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Isnt it the punishment of israel for breaking the old covenant constantly worshipping idols and false gods and then rejecting and killing thier king who came to redeem them from that curse like the Old Testament declares ?
“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”
Luke 21:20-22 KJV
remember how israel always rejected persecuted and killed the prophets who were warning them about false gods worship and calling them to repent throughout the ot ?
“Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.”
Luke 11:49-51 KJV
the last Hope for the earthly nation of Israel was the messiah who came to restore them and redeem them from the curses of the old covenant after they continually killed and rejected Gods prophets finally the promised son who would save them had arrived thier king came to them pleading with them and thisnis what happened
“And the husbandmen ( Israel ) took his servants, ( the early prophets ) and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Again, he sent other servants ( the latter messianic prophets foretelling Jesus coming )more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
But last of all he sent unto them his son, ( Jesus the messiah )saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen ( israel ) saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, And it is marvellous in our eyes?
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
Matthew 21:35-39, 42-43 KJV
The rejection and killing of Jesus is why Jerusalem was destroyed the temple left in rubble never to be rebuilt in 2000 years and th e people were scattered into all nations of earth , that’s what was written all along if they rejected and kept rejecting Gods word meant to save them
rejecting jesus was the last straw and because of it tribulation and depletion resulted about thirty years after Jesus went to heaven when Romes armies surrounded see Jerusalem. Besieged them starved them for three years and then commenced to slaughter everyone and destroy the temple and it’s buildings robbing it for the gold
The great tribulation is that period of time leading up to jerusalems destruction and the subsequent period of mass slaughter and tortures of Christian’s and Jews by Rome . That began a perpetual tribulation on earth until christ returns
the “ Great tribulation period “ was what happened to Jerusalem and the church in those early times the perpetual tribulations Jesus foretold until his second coming is what followed that until Jesus come back it’s why Christian’s today are still killed fornthier beliefs in tbe world but not on that scale like when Christianity began and millions of Jews and chrortoans were slaughtered by Rome and no other be was magically taken up before it happened they all died in the tribulation and were taken into heaven not thier dead body but thoer living spirit
These people are believers on earth and suffered and died in the tribulation
“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, ( the early martyrs ) should be fulfilled.”( the rest of the martyrs till the end )
Revelation 6:9-11
“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.”
Revelation 13:7-9, 15 KJV
This world holds tribulation for gods people ot always has from abel to John the last author of scripture
“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”
Luke 21:20-22 KJV
remember how israel always rejected persecuted and killed the prophets who were warning them about false gods worship and calling them to repent throughout the ot ?
“Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.”
Luke 11:49-51 KJV
the last Hope for the earthly nation of Israel was the messiah who came to restore them and redeem them from the curses of the old covenant after they continually killed and rejected Gods prophets finally the promised son who would save them had arrived thier king came to them pleading with them and thisnis what happened
“And the husbandmen ( Israel ) took his servants, ( the early prophets ) and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Again, he sent other servants ( the latter messianic prophets foretelling Jesus coming )more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
But last of all he sent unto them his son, ( Jesus the messiah )saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen ( israel ) saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, And it is marvellous in our eyes?
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
Matthew 21:35-39, 42-43 KJV
The rejection and killing of Jesus is why Jerusalem was destroyed the temple left in rubble never to be rebuilt in 2000 years and th e people were scattered into all nations of earth , that’s what was written all along if they rejected and kept rejecting Gods word meant to save them
rejecting jesus was the last straw and because of it tribulation and depletion resulted about thirty years after Jesus went to heaven when Romes armies surrounded see Jerusalem. Besieged them starved them for three years and then commenced to slaughter everyone and destroy the temple and it’s buildings robbing it for the gold
The great tribulation is that period of time leading up to jerusalems destruction and the subsequent period of mass slaughter and tortures of Christian’s and Jews by Rome . That began a perpetual tribulation on earth until christ returns
the “ Great tribulation period “ was what happened to Jerusalem and the church in those early times the perpetual tribulations Jesus foretold until his second coming is what followed that until Jesus come back it’s why Christian’s today are still killed fornthier beliefs in tbe world but not on that scale like when Christianity began and millions of Jews and chrortoans were slaughtered by Rome and no other be was magically taken up before it happened they all died in the tribulation and were taken into heaven not thier dead body but thoer living spirit
These people are believers on earth and suffered and died in the tribulation
“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, ( the early martyrs ) should be fulfilled.”( the rest of the martyrs till the end )
Revelation 6:9-11
“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.”
Revelation 13:7-9, 15 KJV
This world holds tribulation for gods people ot always has from abel to John the last author of scripture
-
1
- Show all
Hmmmm. The video I posted which is one hour long, as opposed to your video which is twelve minutes long, is because the teacher on my video takes the time to parse out the words in the verses, and analyses the meaning of the words, while he is on camera. Leading his viewers to fully understand why he comes to the conclusion that he does.
-
2
- Show all
THE CHURCH = Please define "the church" from both a Greek perspective and a Hebrew perspective. Obviously, from a Western view it is just those who have "believe "ON" Jesus, repented from sins, baptized and received the Holy Spirit".
Are there any examples in the OT of "repentance, baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit" or is this just in the NT?
What are the church beliefs "On Jesus"? One comes to mind that the NT Christians of the 21st century say is that the Instructions of YHWH from the first five books are no longer applicable. So what does believing "On Jesus" represent?
Are there any examples in the OT of "repentance, baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit" or is this just in the NT?
What are the church beliefs "On Jesus"? One comes to mind that the NT Christians of the 21st century say is that the Instructions of YHWH from the first five books are no longer applicable. So what does believing "On Jesus" represent?
I see your back to insulting me again, I have only been speaking fluent English for 5 years.
My first language is Welsh I'm from Wales UK. I also speak French.
My intelligence is better than you think.
I know fine well that pre trib base a lot of there beliefs on numbers.
Which is why there prone to fixing dates also.
Don't judged me by your own manner and if I make a spelling mistake, try to learn Welsh and then come back to me, au revoir 😊
My first language is Welsh I'm from Wales UK. I also speak French.
My intelligence is better than you think.
I know fine well that pre trib base a lot of there beliefs on numbers.
Which is why there prone to fixing dates also.
Don't judged me by your own manner and if I make a spelling mistake, try to learn Welsh and then come back to me, au revoir 😊
-
1
- Show all
Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
So the question is "who is the woman?", and why has God prepared a place for her? and what is the "wilderness"? and why 1260 days?
woman = 1) the church or 2) the children of Jacob or 3) neither, it's just Jews
wilderness = 1) on earth or 2) in heaven or 3) neither or 4) a UFO takes her away?
the place God prepared = 1) a physical building or 2) a house or 3) a mansion or 4) another planet
should feed her = 1) physical nourishment or 2) spiritual nourishment or 3) both/neither
1260 days = 3 1/2 years ?= 42 months? or a literal 1260 days?
If 1260 days is literal, is this the first half of the tribulation or the last half of the tribulation?
Is the woman fleeing into the wilderness the "rapture"?
So the question is "who is the woman?", and why has God prepared a place for her? and what is the "wilderness"? and why 1260 days?
woman = 1) the church or 2) the children of Jacob or 3) neither, it's just Jews
wilderness = 1) on earth or 2) in heaven or 3) neither or 4) a UFO takes her away?
the place God prepared = 1) a physical building or 2) a house or 3) a mansion or 4) another planet
should feed her = 1) physical nourishment or 2) spiritual nourishment or 3) both/neither
1260 days = 3 1/2 years ?= 42 months? or a literal 1260 days?
If 1260 days is literal, is this the first half of the tribulation or the last half of the tribulation?
Is the woman fleeing into the wilderness the "rapture"?
Nobody is left behind. That's extra-biblical pre-trib narrative. From scripture we know that there are saints on earth during the tribulation. We don't know that they only came to faith during that time. No verse indicates that.
Believers, now and during the tribulation are all part of the same body of believers.
Look at the Bible without filtering it through the pretrib philosophy to see the truth.
Believers, now and during the tribulation are all part of the same body of believers.
Look at the Bible without filtering it through the pretrib philosophy to see the truth.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
I see that there are some here who don’t take the Bible, the Word of God, literally and assume an allegorical meaning of certain verses to suit whatever they believe to be the truth. That’s another opportunity for false teaching to come in and damage the foundations of a person’s faith.
-
1
-
1
-
1
- Show all
