Gospel Confusion...

[mailmandan]

Rom 5:10
For if (εἰ γὰρ), enemies (ἐχθροὶ) while being (ὄντες ), we were reconciled (κατηλλάγημεν, aorist passive indicative) to the God (τῷ θεῷ) through the death (διὰ τοῦ θανάτου) of the Son (τοῦ υἱοῦ) of him (αὐτοῦ ) much more ( πολλῷ μᾶλλον) , after being reconciled (καταλλαγέντες, aorist passive participle), we shall be saved (σωθησόμεθα, future passive indicative) in/by the life ( ἐν τῇ ζωῇ) of him (αὐτοῦ).
For if, while being enemies ,we are/were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more after being reconciled we shall be being saved in/by His life.

This does not say that we are being saved by His resurrection, but by His life; His resurrection life at work in us to will and to do what pleases God.

It does not say that faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus saved us, but it says that we are (in principle, i.e. aorist passive indicative) or were (in practice, i.e. aorist passive indicative) reconciled to God by Jesus' death. However, it does not follow this up by saying we are (in principle, i.e. aorist passive indicative) or we were (in practice, i.e. aorist passive indicative) saved by His resurrection; nor that we are (in principle, i.e. aorist passive indicative) or we were (in practice, i.e. aorist passive indicative) saved by His life . But it next says that after being reconciled, we shall be being saved by His life. Being saved by His life is apparently not a done deal when we believe in His death and resurrection. Being saved by His life is an on-going process that continues into the future and happens after being reconciled (aorist passive participle). It does not happen while being reconciled (present passive participle).

It sounds to me that you are confusing justification with salvation. Justificatuion is a necessary part of the process of salvation, but is not all of the process of salvation.

Again, you are confusing justification with ongoing sanctification. That is common among folks who teach salvation by faith AND WORKS. There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get confused by works-salvationists:

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

So, you deny that the resurrection is an essential element of the gospel? (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) If you take away the resurrection of Christ will you still be saved and resurrected? Absolutely not! Saved by His life does not mean saved by what we DO (salvation by works) rather than saved by what Jesus has DONE. (salvation by faith) Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Stop trying to make this complicated. Here is the simple truth: Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[Cameron143]

Oh. I understand there is a difference. The man who has received the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit has power and resources at his disposal that enable him/her to more consistently be Christlike, do the will of God, and so to sin less. But the unregenerate man is not as godless, wicked and lacking in righteousness as your theory proposes.

I never said total depravity requires a man to be any of what you surmised; only that he has been corrupted in every facet. Total doesn't mean corrupted to the uttermost, but corrupted in every faculty, or entirely.

Your understanding of total depravity is an inaccurate one.

 

[mailmandan]

You don't understand omni-faceted imperfection. And if you don't understand the difference between a new creation and a natural person, its little wonder why. Can an unsaved individual have the love of God shed abroad in their heart? Can they know the mind of Christ? Can they commune with the Almighty? Enter His presence? Partake of the divine nature? Love as Christ loves?

The natural man is vastly different than a man who has been saved.

Amen! Moral self-reformation is not a substitute for regeneration for the natural man. We must be born again.

 

[PaulThomson]

They were dunked in water, not placed into Christ. Being placed into Christ is an operation of the Spirit...1 Corinthians 12:13. According to Jesus, it can't be scheduled because the Spirit moves sovereignly according to John 3.

Israelites who had been circumcised as babies were required to circumcise their children in order to maintain the covenant relationship with Yahweh that they received through circumcision. Israelites who had not been circumcised by their parents, were cut off from God's people.

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Baptism is the New Covenant version of circumcision. The circumcision of the heart was symbolised by circumcision of the foreskin under Judaism. And circumcision of the heart is symbolised by baptism for Christ-followers. But in both cases, God did/does an internal work of heart circumcision in response to man doing the external work of flesh circumcision and water baptism. A child could be brought up and live among Jews performing many of their practices without being circumcised, but they were not recognised as true Jews by God, if they refused circumcision. Christians who refuse water baptism are like those Jews who refused circumcision.

 

[Cameron143]

Israelites who had been circumcised as babies were required to circumcise their children in order to maintain the covenant relationship with Yahweh that they received through circumcision. Israelites who had not been circumcised by their parents, were cut off from God's people.

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Baptism is the New Covenant version of circumcision. The circumcision of the heart was symbolised by circumcision of the foreskin under Judaism. And circumcision of the heart is symbolised by baptism for Christ-followers. But in both cases, God did/does an internal work of heart circumcision in response to man doing the external work of flesh circumcision and water baptism. A child could be brought up and live among Jews performing many of their practices without being circumcised, but they were not recognised as true Jews by God, if they refused circumcision. Christians who refuse water baptism are like those Jews who refused circumcision.

No it's not. Circumcision was part of the old covenant which demanded perfect obedience to the law. So you are correct, not being circumcised, as would any sin, separated those under the covenant from God. There is, however, no such provision under the new covenant. Nothing can separate an individual in Christ from God.

 

[hornetguy]

You make it sound like water baptism is meaningless if it's not absolutely necessary for salvation. Is circumcision meaningless for the Jews? Is it absolutely necessary for salvation?

We've gone this route before, you and I.... we agree on very many things, even the necessity of baptism.
In reality, we are probably arguing more semantics.... you say that "salvation" is only through belief in Jesus' sacrifice for humanity. But you also say that baptism is, if not essential, at least strongly urged/required, because it symbolizes our salvation...

I agree with that, but my understanding is that our becoming "Jews" or "saved" involves more than one thing. Salvation itself is absolutely a free gift from God... it's grace (un-merited favor).... but we still have to accept the gift willingly, otherwise, all people on earth would just be automatically saved, whether they wished it, or not. We accept the gift, and show it by obeying the command to be baptized, which is an act of asking God for a clear conscience, and forgiveness of our sins. It is our "circumcision"...
It has nothing to do with "earning" salvation..... that is impossible. Just as the simple act of circumcision did not automatically make a person a Jew... but in order to be a Jew one has to be circumcised...

 

[hornetguy]

There is, however, no such provision under the new covenant.

Then why was baptism compared to circumcision at all? If it was not a "like" process, then why even bother with the comparison?

8 See to it that there is no one who takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception in accordance with human tradition, in accordance with the elementary principles of the world, [i]rather than in accordance with Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made [j]complete, and He is the head [k]over every ruler and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And [l]when you were dead [m]in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

 

[Cameron143]

Then why was baptism compared to circumcision at all? If it was not a "like" process, then why even bother with the comparison?

8 See to it that there is no one who takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception in accordance with human tradition, in accordance with the elementary principles of the world, [i]rather than in accordance with Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made [j]complete, and He is the head [k]over every ruler and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And [l]when you were dead [m]in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

They are compared because they are both outward acts that symbolize inward realities. Circumcision symbolized both the shedding of blood and the circumcision of the heart. Water baptism symbolizes our relationship to Christ in sharing in His death, burial, and resurrection, as well as the washing away of one's sins.

 

[DeanM]

They are compared because they are both outward acts that symbolize inward realities. Circumcision symbolized both the shedding of blood and the circumcision of the heart. Water baptism symbolizes our relationship to Christ in sharing in His death, burial, and resurrection, as well as the washing away of one's sins.

The blood of Jesus washes away sin. Baptism is a symbol of His death burial and resurection and also a public affirmation of ones salvation.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Amen! Moral self-reformation is not a substitute for regeneration for the natural man. We must be born again.

“Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭

“In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with righteousness by the man he has appointed.

He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭

Did you notice this part ?

“realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.”


Hes been saying that since cain …..

“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬


Being born again comes from here

“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭NIV‬‬

you aren’t first chosen and reborn by God being born again as a child of God is a result of receiving the gospel of Jesus Christ

“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:10, 12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the children of God are born of the gospel as they hear and believe it ….. this brings new life

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

abut also if a person rejects Gods word of life

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

again they reject him and won’t accept his words then those words they refused to accept end up being thier judgement in the end .

That’s different from saying God doesn’t allow them to accept him and be saved and so then he judges them as if they did have a choice and as if they rejected him, they refused his word

his word is gods grace if we come close and listen to him he will teach us to repent and live upright lives now and also teach us to become zealous for rather than resistant to good works

if a person goes to the gospel and listens to Jesus believing in him and trusting his word as truth ….this happens and it saves us from judgement

“For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present world, ( Jesus and his apostles all teach this in the doctrine )

while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. ( Jesus and his apostles teach this on the doctrine that we are called to listen to and heed )

These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭

The gospel is where salvation is offered by the grace of God to all humanity those who hear and believe will be born again

 

[mailmandan]

We've gone this route before, you and I.... we agree on very many things, even the necessity of baptism. In reality, we are probably arguing more semantics.... you say that "salvation" is only through belief in Jesus' sacrifice for humanity.

(John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; 1 John 5:13 etc..). These verses are very clear.

But you also say that baptism is, if not essential, at least strongly urged/required, because it symbolizes our salvation...

Well sure. I can't name one Christians I know who believes the gospel but has refused to be water baptized. I came to believe the gospel/place my faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation several years ago on a Saturday night but was unable to receive water baptism until Sunday morning. I knew without a doubt that I had become born again and did not sit up all night sweating bullets that I was still lost until I received water baptism the next morning and with that being said, I could not wait to receive water baptism the next morning and even gave about a 5 minute testimony on how I finally came to believe the gospel just before my baptism.

I agree with that, but my understanding is that our becoming "Jews" or "saved" involves more than one thing. Salvation itself is absolutely a free gift from God... it's grace (un-merited favor).... but we still have to accept the gift willingly, otherwise, all people on earth would just be automatically saved, whether they wished it, or not.

Amen! (Ephesians 2:8,9)

We accept the gift, and show it by obeying the command to be baptized, which is an act of asking God for a clear conscience, and forgiveness of our sins. It is our "circumcision"...

Show it by obeying the command to be baptized is a good way to put it. Accepting the gift is signified in baptism. Anyone who professes to have believed the gospel yet refusing to be water baptized is of questionable sincerity. Romans 4:5-6 is very clear and as we read on in verses 9-11, we see - Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also.

It has nothing to do with "earning" salvation..... that is impossible. Just as the simple act of circumcision did not automatically make a person a Jew... but in order to be a Jew one has to be circumcised...

Any works that we "add" to salvation through faith would make those works meritorious towards receiving salvation whether one see's it as earning or not.

 

[mailmandan]

“Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭

“In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with righteousness by the man he has appointed.

He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭

Did you notice this part ?

“realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.”

Yes, and I already covered Acts 10:34-35 in post #532. Nothing there about salvation by works/works righteousness.

Hes been saying that since cain …..

“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬

It was by or "out of" faith that Abel offered a sacrifice. Abel's faith was evidenced by obedience to God's requirement for sacrifice by which he obtained witness that he was righteous. (Hebrews 11:4) Cain, who was of the evil one, demonstrated an evil heart by evil deeds, while Abel demonstrated a righteous heart by his righteous deeds (1 John 3:12); and that Abel offered his sacrifice by or "out of" faith and Cain did not. Cain's sacrifice was evidence of his lack of faith. Abel's offering was a demonstration of his faith in regard to sacrifice, which was not demonstrated by Cain's offering.

Being born again comes from here

“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭NIV‬‬

you aren’t first chosen and reborn by God being born again as a child of God is a result of receiving the gospel of Jesus Christ

Water baptism has no power to cause one to become born again. Jesus clarifies the first half of Mark 16:16 with the second clause - but he who does not believe will be condemned. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. Not through plain ordinary H20. In John 15:3, we read - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. In Ephesians 5:26, we read - that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. Here is where the water part comes in. Living water and not plain ordinary H20. (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39) *Notice the word drink(s) in those verses. *Also notice we drink into one Spirit when we are Spirit baptized. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:10, 12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Yes, believe on His name. *What happened to baptism? In 1 John 5:13, we also read - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

the children of God are born of the gospel as they hear and believe it ….. this brings new life

Yes, by hearing and believing the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 1:13) *What happened to baptism?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

abut also if a person rejects Gods word of life

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

again they reject him and won’t accept his words then those words they refused to accept end up being thier judgement in the end .

That’s different from saying God doesn’t allow them to accept him and be saved and so then he judges them as if they did have a choice and as if they rejected him, they refused his word

Amen! Sadly, there are many who will refuse to believe the gospel and be saved. (Matthew 7:13-23; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

This word is gods grace if we come close and listen to him he will teach us to repent and live upright lives now and also teach us to become zealous for rather than resistant to good works

Those who truly repent will demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. (Acts 26:20) These deeds are the fruit of repentance. (Matthew 3:8) Those who are saved/born of God are not resistant to good works. (Ephesians 2:10; Titus 2:14)

if a person goes to the gospel and listens to Jesus believing in him and trusting his word as truth ….this happens and it saves us from judgement

We must trust in the gospel to save us (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and not pervert the gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

“For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present world, ( Jesus and his apostles all teach this in the doctrine )

while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. ( Jesus and his apostles teach this on the doctrine that we are called to listen to and heed )

These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭

Grace is God's unmerited favor in which He shows us mercy, kindness, and patience instead of the judgment that we deserve for sinning against Him. (Romans 3:23; 6:23) God's grace cannot be earned by our actions/performance/works.

Grace is based on the character of God and not on our sincerity, performance, or ability to keep the law. Otherwise, grace would not be grace.

Romans 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Galatians 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

2 Timothy 1:9, "who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

Also, see Ephesians 2:8,9.

God's grace operates sovereignly in the lives of believers.

1 Corinthians 15:10 - But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

2 Corinthians 1:12 - For our proud confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you.

2 Corinthians 12:9 - And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

The gospel is where salvation is offered by the grace of God to all humanity those who hear and believe will be born again

Amen! (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, and I already covered Acts 10:34-35 in post #532. Nothing there about salvation by works/works righteousness.

It was by or "out of" faith that Abel offered a sacrifice. Abel's faith was evidenced by obedience to God's requirement for sacrifice by which he obtained witness that he was righteous. (Hebrews 11:4) Cain, who was of the evil one, demonstrated an evil heart by evil deeds, while Abel demonstrated a righteous heart by his righteous deeds (1 John 3:12); and that Abel offered his sacrifice by or "out of" faith and Cain did not. Cain's sacrifice was evidence of his lack of faith. Abel's offering was a demonstration of his faith in regard to sacrifice, which was not demonstrated by Cain's offering.

Water baptism has no power to cause one to become born again. Jesus clarifies the first half of Mark 16:16 with the second clause - but he who does not believe will be condemned. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. Not through plain ordinary H20. In John 15:3, we read - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. In Ephesians 5:26, we read - that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. Here is where the water part comes in. Living water and not plain ordinary H20. (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39) *Notice the word drink(s) in those verses. *Also notice we drink into one Spirit when we are Spirit baptized. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

Yes, believe on His name. *What happened to baptism? In 1 John 5:13, we also read - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

Yes, by hearing and believing the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 1:13) *What happened to baptism?

Amen! Sadly, there are many who will refuse to believe the gospel and be saved. (Matthew 7:13-23; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

Those who truly repent will demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. (Acts 26:20) These deeds are the fruit of repentance. (Matthew 3:8) Those who are saved/born of God are not resistant to good works. (Ephesians 2:10; Titus 2:14)

We must trust in the gospel to save us (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and not pervert the gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Grace is God's unmerited favor in which He shows us mercy, kindness, and patience instead of the judgment that we deserve for sinning against Him. (Romans 3:23; 6:23) God's grace cannot be earned by our actions/performance/works.

Grace is based on the character of God and not on our sincerity, performance, or ability to keep the law. Otherwise, grace would not be grace.

Romans 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Galatians 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

2 Timothy 1:9, "who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

Also, see Ephesians 2:8,9.

God's grace operates sovereignly in the lives of believers.

1 Corinthians 15:10 - But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

2 Corinthians 1:12 - For our proud confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you.

2 Corinthians 12:9 - And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Amen! (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Circles

 

[hornetguy]

Well sure. I can't name one Christians I know who believes the gospel but has refused to be water baptized. I came to believe the gospel/place my faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation several years ago on a Saturday night but was unable to receive water baptism until Sunday morning. I knew without a doubt that I had become born again and did not sit up all night sweating bullets that I was still lost until I received water baptism the next morning and with that being said, I could not wait to receive water baptism the next morning and even gave about a 5 minute testimony on how I finally came to believe the gospel just before my baptism.

I agree with your assessment here 100%.

 

[Musicmaster]

The last words of Jesus to his apostles.....

18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 [g]Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to [h]follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you [i]always, to the end of the age.”

Paul understood the necessity of it, apparently....

17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like fish scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened.

Peter saw, and taught the necessity of it....

Then Peter responded, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

But, you keep on parsing words until you get what you want.... I'll just go by what the word says....

If I may point something out...concerning your pointing at Peter: He spoke clearly of their having already received Holy Spirit, which only happens after salvation, and then you say water baptism was necessary after the fact. Peter's words did not speak of a requirement for it. He only asked if there was reason that they should not. After all, they were saved and already had Holy Spirit. Are you assuming the reverse? The chronology and the language of those verses simply don't align with the direction of where you went with this.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

You seem to be assuming that salvation is a momentary event, like passing through a door from a dark room into a light room, and the door gets locked once you pass through it so you are trapped in the light, trapped in salvation. But maybe salvation includes a door at it's beginning, but is a way one needs to travel and remain on, and one can depart from it further along the path, Maybe water baptism is a way-station along the path that one needs to pass through to remain on the most direct and equipped path to the celestial city. And maybe circumventing this way-station leaves one less equipped for the journey ahead.

Abraham was justified by his faith when he believed God's promises, but if He had refused to receive circumcision as a seal of his commitment to the covenant God had cut with him, would he have remained God's chosen, or would God have passed over Him and looked for another? Moses failed to seal his participation in the Abrahamic covenant by leaving his son uncircumcised, and God was about to kill him and maybe choose Aaron instead, until Moses wife circumcised the boy,

Maybe it is because you have boarded the bandwagon of some some prideful gnosis that you insist that you are excused from receiving and administering water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ aka in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

When you apply subjective comparatives as a means of trying to solidify a point that doesn't apply to us under the Gospel of Grace, that simply is a fallacious parallel. It's a straw man argument. Abraham was not under the Law of Moses nor was he going to be saved had he disobeyed what he was instructed to do. All before the Gospel of Grace were bound by some form of Law. We are not. They had to earn their salvation through obedience, we do not. The difference, therefore, is striking. Keeping that in mind helps to dispel the massive confusions that arise from trying to harmonize what they were under verses what we are under today from the time of the revelation of the mystery to Paul first.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

You are again assuming salvation is an instantaneous irrevocable completed done deal that happens when one first puts faith in Christ. Baptism is not a precursor to instant complete salvation. It is a step in the process of a lifestyle of salvation.

Why should I not assume such? You've presented nothing from scripture that says otherwise that applies to us today.

Your reasoning suggests that the seal of Holy Spirit is weak and powerless to hold what is clearly His, in His Hands, from which none can be snatched. Do you know of a verse where the Lord admitted that some could and have "jumped from" His Hands? Please apply something solid and beyond doubt in its ability to substantiate your belief along this line.

I once believed as you, but no longer, so I know where you're coming from.

MM

 

[hornetguy]

If I may point something out...concerning your pointing at Peter: He spoke clearly of their having already received Holy Spirit, which only happens after salvation, and then you say water baptism was necessary after the fact. Peter's words did not speak of a requirement for it. He only asked if there was reason that they should not. After all, they were saved and already had Holy Spirit. Are you assuming the reverse? The chronology and the language of those verses simply don't align with the direction of where you went with this.

MM

Yes.... this appears to have been a very special occasion... a "one-off" kind of thing. The Jewish believers did not want to recognize Gentiles as believers. They thought it was for the Jewish people only, and we can infer from Peter's comments that they did not even want the Gentiles to be allowed to be baptized into Jesus...

Peter's "mission" was to show and convince the Jewish believers that God calls and accepts all races and ethnicities... and to prove that point, in the presence of the Jewish skeptics, the Gentiles received an indwelling of the Holy Spirit, along with the sign gift of speaking in tongues... just as the apostles received at Pentecost. This sign proved beyond a doubt that God accepted the Gentile believers.... whereupon Peter responded....

46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter responded, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

 

[PaulThomson]

Also, are not the words of Peter in Acts 10:43-47 not plain, and straightforward? Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

*Believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, saved BEFORE water baptism. Scripture must harmonize with scripture or else we have a contradiction and there are no contradictions in God's word.

You make it sound like water baptism is meaningless if it's not absolutely necessary for salvation. Is circumcision meaningless for the Jews? Is it absolutely necessary for salvation? Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no symbol/picture.

Act 10:43 To him (τούτῳ ) all the prophets (πάντες οἱ προφῆται) are witnessing (μαρτυροῦσιν, present active indicative), remission (ἄφεσιν) of short-comings ( ἁμαρτιῶν) to receive ( λαβεῖν, aorist active infinitive) through the name (διὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος) of Him (αὐτοῦ) every (πάντα, accusative masculine singular) believing one (τὸν πιστεύοντα, present active participle) into him (εἰς αὐτόν).

To [Jesus] all the prophets are testifying that everyone believing into Him, receives/received forgiveness of their short-comings through His name.
Those who heard Peter believed in the name of Jesus and received forgiveness/reconciliation, justification when they believed. But they were not completely saved. They were beginning a journey toward full salvation. That journey includes believing in Jesus for the remission of sins. But it also includes receiving the Holy Spirit and making a commitment to walk in obedience to Jesus. So, when He says "Be baptised, every one if you," every one of His who listens to his voice, gets baptised, as part of their walk of obedience and their growth toward full salvation.

God created the physical world very good. We are to bring the physical under Christ's rule, not just the mental and spiritual. That means using physical things as Jesus commands us to use them. That means using water to baptise believers. That means nelievers placing their physical bodies under physical water in obedience to Jesus. This shows that we are placing physical, mental and spiritual components under Jesus' rule. A person who refuses baptism is dividing the physical realm from the mental and spiritual realms and giving Jesus only 2/3 commitment.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Oh. I understand there is a difference. The man who has received the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit has power and resources at his disposal that enable him/her to more consistently be Christlike, do the will of God, and so to sin less. But the unregenerate man is not as godless, wicked and lacking in righteousness as your theory proposes.

I never said total depravity requires a man to be any of what you surmised; only that he has been corrupted in every facet. Total doesn't mean corrupted to the uttermost, but corrupted in every faculty, or entirely.

Your understanding of total depravity is an inaccurate one.

Either every facet is partially corrupted or every facet is totally corrupted. If every facet is only partially corrupted, then all facets are capable of some uncorrupted activity. If all facets are only partially corrupted they are capable of some good. Does your theory allow for an unregenerate man to do some good?