God gave the law about Circumcision.

[Inquisitor]

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His children to repent and to return to obedience to His law and even Christ began his ministry with that Gospel message (Matthew 4:15-23), so it is absurd to interpret Galatians as Paul being opposed to repenting and believing the Gospel of Christ.


Yes, I understand it. The Spirit is God, so it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 5:18 as referring to the Law of God as if we aren't led by God when we are being led by God. In Galatians 5:16-23, Paul contrasted the desires of the flesh with the desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law while all of the fruits of the Spirit aspects of God's character that His law was given to teach us how to express. If we are under the Law of God, then we are obligated to refrain from doing what it reveals to be works of the flesh, but if we aren't under the Law of God, then we are free to do those things, so again it would be absurd to think that we are free to do what is contrary to the desires of the Spirit when we are led by the Spirit. In Galatians 5:16-18, Paul said that the desires of the flesh cause us not to do the good that we want to do, which is how he described his struggle with the law of sin in Romans 7, so that is the law that we aren't under when we are led by the Spirit. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

Unfortunately you are not reading the scripture correctly, Soyeong.

Here is how AI reads the text in Galatians 5.

Why the Galatians Are Not Under the Law

Paul states in Galatians 5:18, “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” This means that believers who live by the Spirit are no longer subject to the Mosaic Law as a system of righteousness.

1. The Law Cannot Justify – Paul argues that justification comes by faith in Christ, not by works of the Law (Galatians 2:16). The Law reveals sin but does not provide the power to overcome it.
2. The Law Was Temporary – Galatians 3:24 says, "The law was our guardian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith." Now that Christ has come, believers are no longer under its supervision.
3. The Spirit Replaces the Law – Rather than external rules, the Holy Spirit now guides believers internally, producing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).
4. Love Fulfills the Law – Paul says in Galatians 5:14, "For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" Since love is the fulfillment of the Law, those who walk in love by the Spirit naturally do what the Law required without being under it.

Ultimately, Paul’s message is that Christ has set believers free from the burdensome yoke of the Law, calling them instead to live in the freedom of the Spirit, where love is the defining mark of their lives.

The Christian walk is not so much being obsessed with stopping your flesh from sinning.

The Christian life is love in the extreme.

 

[Inquisitor]

It is just an identity marker like the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, though God did identity Himself as the God of Israel:

Isaiah 45:3 “I will give you the treasures of darkness and the hoards in secret places, that you may know that it is I, the Lord, the God of Israel, who call you by your name.”

The God of Israel has given instructions to Israel for how to know, love, glorify, believe in, and testify about Him by being His likeness through being a doer of His character traits by walking in His way, so anyone who wants to do those things will follow His instructions for how to do them. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so those who are in Christ should follow his example of walking in God’s way regardless of whether they are a Jew or a Gentile.

The problem was that Israel could not obey the law in the flesh.

The law was given to them to demonstrate that they were utterly sinful.

The law was the preparation for the messiah to arrive.

When Jesus arrived He absolutely fulfilled the law for us.

That is why I am perfectly righteous and your not.

 

[GWH]

Good works are not extrinsic to salvation, so we are not required to have first done enough good works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do good works as the result of having first been saved, but rather the experience being a doer of good works is intrinsically part of God's gift of saving us from not being a doer of good works. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.


You use of abbreviations does not add clarity, so please explain what you mean by p.s & o.S.

A recent insight given to me is that we should not divorce saving faith from the will to believe/seek by viewing it as meritorious or salvation by works. The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time. The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime.

(A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”)

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7, RM 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

I sometimes got carried away with abbreviations, which I did with p.s. and o.S., so never mind. However, I think everyone should become familiar with God's requirement for salvation (GRFS), since that is the crux of so many topics of conversation involving the OT, NT, and God's plan of salvation (POS), which I find myself needing to mention/type frequently.

LIC,
GWH

 

[Soyeong]

The answer to this question, provided in length above in my other post, is that YES we should absolutely walk in the Way provided by God who is our God now and not only the God of Israel. The Way, is the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ.

14 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.” 5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him John 14

Do you think that what Jesus claiming in John 14 should be understood in accordance with the context of what the OT says on those matters and that it should inform our understanding of what he was claiming or do you think that he should be interpreted as expressing disagreement with what God instructed in the OT?

 

[CommodoreTeach]

I'll leave this question open to everyone:

Should followers of the God of Israel walk in His way in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow?

Christians should do as Christ commands, not necessarily as Christ did. For example, Christians do not need to die on a cross for the sins of others - it would be useless, foolish, and even blasphemous. So while following the example of Christ is useful to a point, it's more important to obey what Christ said (i.e. believe on Him) than to mimic what Christ did (i.e. live a perfect life, and die for the sins of others, which we cannot).

 

[Dino246]

Christians should do as Christ commands, not necessarily as Christ did. For example, Christians do not need to die on a cross for the sins of others - it would be useless, foolish, and even blasphemous. So while following the example of Christ is useful to a point, it's more important to obey what Christ said (i.e. believe on Him) than to mimic what Christ did (i.e. live a perfect life, and die for the sins of others, which we cannot).

Exactly. The answer to “What should we DO?”, the answer is “Believe”, not “Mimic”.

 

[Soyeong]

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Romans 8

My personal comment regarding those who desire to put Christians under obligation to OT law, is that they are actually not in tune with the Holy Spirit. The Bible refers to the law as a covenant of death.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. Romans 8: 1-2

The law puts the focus on sin, which leads to death, but we are set free from following the law (which was never given to any other nation other than the Israelites) in Christ.

God has not commanded anything that was contrary to the Spirit, but rather everything that He has commanded was commanded in order to teach how to bear fruit of the Spirit. The Spirit is God and the Mosaic Law was given by God, so why does it make sense to you to interpret the Bible as saying that we are not in tune with God when we teach people to repent and obey His law in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom, especially when God called for His people to do that all throughout the Bible? The greatest two commandments of the Law of God are to love Him and our neighbor and love is one of the fruits of the Spirit, so why do you not see these as being in tune with each other? Does the Spirit lead us to love instead of obeying the greatest two commandments? Why does it make sense to you to interpret a servant of God as speaking against obeying what He has commanded?

In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death, so the Law of God is not the law of sin and death. We need to be set free from the law of sin and death in order to be set free to fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law of God, not the other way around. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, so verses like Romans 8:1 that refer to those who are in Christ are only referring to those who are followers of his example of walking in obedience to the Law of God.

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


If you are still trying to follow a law that emphasizes your sin with spiritual and finally physical death as your reward, you have no business to attempt any sort of instruction whatsoever unless you repent of your gross error and accept Christ as your Savior from this law and your inability to save yourself by what you do, rather than what Christ has accomplished on your behalf.

The Law of God leads us to do what holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) while the law of sin leads us in the opposite direction by stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death. Paul said the the Law of God is good, the he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and that he served with his mind, but contrasted it with the law of sin that was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, that was waging war against the law of his mind, that held him captive, and that he served with his flesh. In Romans 6, Paul was contrasting these two directions. We are slaves to the one that we obey, either the law of sin that leads to death or the Law of God, which leads to righteousness. Everything in Romans 6 is speaking in favor of obedience to God and against sin. Jesus does not save us from the Law of God, but from the law of sin. The Law of God was never given as instructions for how to save ourselves, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is the way that He is giving us His gift of saving us from being a doer of sin. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ which is the gift of God, so being a doer of the Law of God is His gift of eternal life in Christ, which is why those who are in Christ are obligated to obey it (1 John 2:6) and why the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments (1 John 2:6).

 

[ocean]

And sin is the cause of death not the law...

The law calls for death if sin is not atoned for and no one can keep the law. The law was never meant to be the payment for sin.

You know, all of that is well laid out in scripture.

So my question is ....
Should you obey the law by grace
Or live in sin and transgress the law?

Here is my answer as provided in my post above.

The answer to this question, provided in length above in my other post, is that YES we should absolutely walk in the Way provided by God who is our God now and not only the God of Israel. The Way, is the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[ocean]

Do you think that what Jesus claiming in John 14 should be understood in accordance with the context of what the OT says on those matters and that it should inform our understanding of what he was claiming or do you think that he should be interpreted as expressing disagreement with what God instructed in the OT?

I think that people who believe the impossible, ie obeying the law and trying to mimic God, should ACCEPT Christ as their Savior. They should acknowledge the fact that they are one of the sinners Christ died for and stop playing at being somehow able to do what God Himself says they cannot do.

It is an insult to God for a person to account themself worthy by their so called acts or works.

 

[Inquisitor]

God has not commanded anything that was contrary to the Spirit, but rather everything that He has commanded was commanded in order to teach how to bear fruit of the Spirit. The Spirit is God and the Mosaic Law was given by God, so why does it make sense to you to interpret the Bible as saying that we are not in tune with God when we teach people to repent and obey His law in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom, especially when God called for His people to do that all throughout the Bible? The greatest two commandments of the Law of God are to love Him and our neighbor and love is one of the fruits of the Spirit, so why do you not see these as being in tune with each other? Does the Spirit lead us to love instead of obeying the greatest two commandments? Why does it make sense to you to interpret a servant of God as speaking against obeying what He has commanded?

In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death, so the Law of God is not the law of sin and death. We need to be set free from the law of sin and death in order to be set free to fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law of God, not the other way around. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, so verses like Romans 8:1 that refer to those who are in Christ are only referring to those who are followers of his example of walking in obedience to the Law of God.


The Law of God leads us to do what holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) while the law of sin leads us in the opposite direction by stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death. Paul said the the Law of God is good, the he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and that he served with his mind, but contrasted it with the law of sin that was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, that was waging war against the law of his mind, that held him captive, and that he served with his flesh. In Romans 6, Paul was contrasting these two directions. We are slaves to the one that we obey, either the law of sin that leads to death or the Law of God, which leads to righteousness. Everything in Romans 6 is speaking in favor of obedience to God and against sin. Jesus does not save us from the Law of God, but from the law of sin. The Law of God was never given as instructions for how to save ourselves, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is the way that He is giving us His gift of saving us from being a doer of sin. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ which is the gift of God, so being a doer of the Law of God is His gift of eternal life in Christ, which is why those who are in Christ are obligated to obey it (1 John 2:6) and why the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments (1 John 2:6).

Soyeong, please read the following two verses and tell me how you understand them.

Romans 2:14-15
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law,
are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing
witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.

 

[Soyeong]

Soyeong, please read the following two verses and tell me how you understand them.

Romans 2:14-15
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law,
are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing
witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.

Having the law refers to having physical possession of a Torah scroll in contrast with Jews having the oracles of God (Romans 3:1-2). Jews were in charge of copying, maintaining, and teaching from the Torah scrolls and a Gentile needed to go through Jews in order to gain access to one. However, even though believing Gentiles did not have physical possession of Torah scroll, they were by nature doers of what it instructs, which is in accordance with the example that of obedience to the Torah that Jesus set for us to follow, and in accordance with Romans 2:13 saying that only the doers of the Torah will be justified. Likewise, in Romans 2:25-29, the way to determine that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Torah.

 

[Godsgood]

I'll leave this question open to everyone:

Should followers of the God of Israel walk in His way in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Our Lord Jesus said.
JOHN 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus taught to Peter:
1 PETER 2:21
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Jesus taught to Paul:
1 CORINTHIANS 11:1
11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Our Lord Jesus said.
JOHN 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus taught to Peter:
1 PETER 2:21
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Jesus taught to Paul:
1 CORINTHIANS 11:1
11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Do you agree that Jesus set a perfect example for us to follow of how to practice Judaism by walking in sinless obedience to the Torah?