God does not love all mankind.

[notuptome]

Romans 9:13 Jacob I have loved, but Esau have I hated.

Roman 9:22 speaks of God having vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction.

So it sounds like God actually hates certain people, it's undeniable. The question is, who are these people and why does God hate them. The fact that God casts certain sinners onto hell, to be tormented forever demonstrates that He hates certain people.

Many say that God loves everyone, regardless of how much they have sinned. The Bible seems to indicate otherwise.

Oh please. God hated Esau because Esau counted his blessing to be worth a bowl of beans. God hated what Esau did not Esau His dear creation.

All those who count the promises of God to be of no value are vessels fitted for wrath. Those that receive the word of God are vessels fitted for Gods blessing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Slayer]

Oh please. God hated Esau because Esau counted his blessing to be worth a bowl of beans. God hated what Esau did not Esau His dear creation.

All those who count the promises of God to be of no value are vessels fitted for wrath. Those that receive the word of God are vessels fitted for Gods blessing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Are you able to tell me what is it that causes some to receive the Word and others to reject the Word.

I believe they have different spirits in them, some respond with gladness to the Gospel message and others respond with hatred and they reject it as utter foolishness.

So I believe it comes down to what spirit a man has in them, those who are being led by the Holy Spirit, respond to Gods Word by believing. The others refuse to believe no matter how much you plead with them, they go to the grave denying Gods Word.

This is why I believe a person is either born with the gift to believe or they're not.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

God isn't actually punishing us, He is correcting and helping us. We recognize we are sinners and lost without Him, We recognize compared to Him we are disgusting filth. So we try to adapt the things God has listed for us to help us become purer. Sometimes within that process, God has to intervene in the case we are going about it wrong or misunderstanding what He actually wants. And sometimes He knocks us down a peg when we forget we are representing Him, especially when believing we are doing it on our own merit.

But the sinner feels they are perfect, and have no need to be better, including believing in a God. They are prepping themselves for another type of correction/punishment. One that is forever and the lesson is a reminder they were wrong!!

Sounds pretty good to me. Then you do know that God does not love all mankind?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Oh please. God hated Esau because Esau counted his blessing to be worth a bowl of beans. God hated what Esau did not Esau His dear creation.

All those who count the promises of God to be of no value are vessels fitted for wrath. Those that receive the word of God are vessels fitted for Gods blessing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You better read it again. God made this statement before they were even born into this world and having done no good or evil, to show that his election might stand.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Are you able to tell me what is it that causes some to receive the Word and others to reject the Word.

I believe they have different spirits in them, some respond with gladness to the Gospel message and others respond with hatred and they reject it as utter foolishness.

So I believe it comes down to what spirit a man has in them, those who are being led by the Holy Spirit, respond to Gods Word by believing. The others refuse to believe no matter how much you plead with them, they go to the grave denying Gods Word.

This is why I believe a person is either born with the gift to believe or they're not.

I agree with that, Slayer.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Romans 9:13 Jacob I have loved, but Esau have I hated.

Roman 9:22 speaks of God having vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction.

So it sounds like God actually hates certain people, it's undeniable. The question is, who are these people and why does God hate them. The fact that God casts certain sinners onto hell, to be tormented forever demonstrates that He hates certain people.

Many say that God loves everyone, regardless of how much they have sinned. The Bible seems to indicate otherwise.

I agree with your statement.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It is not so depraved that we cannot hear the gospel and choose to believe it.


That is a false assertion.


That is a false assertion. People repent and are baptized FOR the remission of sins, not because it's already happened.


That is a false assertion. The gift of the Holy Spirit is not the "revelation of the truth". When people hear the gospel and choose to believe it, THEN they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13).

Each of your comments in parentheses are false, Forest.


God wants the wicked to repent.

Eze 33:
11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You received remission of sins by Christ dying on the cross for them, there is no remission of sins in baptism. In baptism we are remembering and because of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection,. Baptism is not in order to remit sins, but is an answer of a good conscience toward God already knowing that your sins have been paid for by Christ on the cross, it delivers (saves) us from quilt feeling of not acknowledging that we understand that Christ died to remit our sins, 1 Pet 3:21. I have already explained 2 Pet 3:9 to you, but if you don't remember, I will explain it again. Eze 33:11, Ezekiel is talking to God's favored nation of Israel, calling them wicked, even though we are his children, we, at times do wicked things and children, when they do wicked things, cause themselves to lose their fellowship with God, which is a separation referred to as death. If they repent, they will regain that fellowship back. All scriptures must harmonize.

 

[shrume]

You received remission of sins by Christ dying on the cross for them, there is no remission of sins in baptism. In baptism we are remembering and because of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection,. Baptism is not in order to remit sins, but is an answer of a good conscience toward God already knowing that your sins have been paid for by Christ on the cross, it delivers (saves) us from quilt feeling of not acknowledging that we understand that Christ died to remit our sins, 1 Pet 3:21. I have already explained 2 Pet 3:9 to you, but if you don't remember, I will explain it again. Eze 33:11, Ezekiel is talking to God's favored nation of Israel, calling them wicked, even though we are his children, we, at times do wicked things and children, when they do wicked things, cause themselves to lose their fellowship with God, which is a separation referred to as death. If they repent, they will regain that fellowship back. All scriptures must harmonize.

Christ's dying on the cross was for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). To receive salvation, a person must choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:30-31). Water baptism is not necessary for salvation, it is baptism in the Holy Spirit that counts (1 Cor 12:13), and a person is baptized in the Holy Spirit when he hears the gospel and chooses to believe it (Eph 1:13), something anyone can do. Your explanation of 2 Pet 3:9 is faulty. We are not Israel. God wants everyone to repent, believe the gospel, and become saved (1 Tim 2:4).

We are not supposed to twist the scriptures, as you do, in order to make them harmonize.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You and I discussed this issue concerning Thayer's in the "what must I do to be saved" thread.

I do not believe you ever replied to this post from that thread:




I'm not making this up, ForestGreenCook.

Earlier editions of Thayer's defined the word kosmos in John 3:16 as "the inhabitants of the world: particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race".

I'll leave it to you to come up with your reason as to why later editions do not include John 3:16 under that particular definition, but it appears to me that someone is trying to support a certain doctrine in having removed the reference.

Is this world, in John 3:16, the same world Jesus says he prays not for the world? (John 17:9).

 

[Slayer]

Christ's dying on the cross was for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). To receive salvation, a person must choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:30-31). Water baptism is not necessary for salvation, it is baptism in the Holy Spirit that counts (1 Cor 12:13), and a person is baptized in the Holy Spirit when he hears the gospel and chooses to believe it (Eph 1:13), something anyone can do. Your explanation of 2 Pet 3:9 is faulty. We are not Israel. God wants everyone to repent, believe the gospel, and become saved (1 Tim 2:4).

We are not supposed to twist the scriptures, as you do, in order to make them harmonize.

You say, to believe the Gospel is something anyone can do. but there are many scriptures which seem to suggest that the natural man doesn't receive the spiritual things of God.

Other scriptures even say, that the things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing. What do you think causes some to believe and others to reject the Gospel. We can't put it down to the persons education level or their IQ or their level of intelligence so what is it that separates the believer from the non believer.

We believe that God gives the ability to believe to some as a gift and unless God draws the person to Himself they will never come of their own volition.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Context out of Love for all God provided what? His Son. John 3:16 , that is not all God has done he also provided everything need for all men to live , food, water , shelter etc.. even those ewvil men God did not deny a drink of water . HIS love for us is welll seen in HIS handy work or creation. wickedness is on man. God did not create sin nor did he make man with Sin. The very first actions of God was to make man in the likeness of Himself which is Love. man thought something else.

You might also consider Romans 9:11, For the children being not born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. and 13, As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. You may also, take into consideration Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing, and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? If it is God's will that all the inhabitants of earth be saved eternally, and God accomplishes all that is his will, then how do you explain this verse?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Acts 16:30-31, I have a reference on verse 30 directing me to chapter 2:37 where the men of Israel, that Peter was preaching to, were PRICKED in their heart, indicating the jailer also was pricked in the heart and the natural man, void of the Spirit, cannot be pricked in the heart. Therefore, the jailer had already been born of the Spirit. The natural man, void of the Spirit, would not have ask such a question. 1 Cor 12:13, All this scripture does is state that before we are baptized into the body of the church we had already all been born of the Spirit. The other scriptures you referenced we have already discussed previously.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Rev 3:19, As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; Be zealous therefore, and repent. Psalms 73:5, They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED ( Greek translation = divinely punished ) like other men. If God divinely punishes everyone that he loves, why does he not punish the wicked mentioned in Psalms 73, if he loves all mankind?

You have taken two Scriptures OUT OF CONTEXT to prove that God does not love mankind. And you have also misunderstood Rev 3:19.

Perhaps you should now find a Scripture which actually indicates what is in your title.

 

[plaintalk]

Rev 3:19, As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; Be zealous therefore, and repent. Psalms 73:5, They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED ( Greek translation = divinely punished ) like other men. If God divinely punishes everyone that he loves, why does he not punish the wicked mentioned in Psalms 73, if he loves all mankind?

Whoa! We cannot allow ourselves to come to conclusion about verses we perhaps don't understand to contradict plain verses everyone who has ears understands. God so loved the world, not just the elect, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever (that's anyone) should not not perish but have eternal life. (John 3: 16)
God is most certainly going to punish the wicked. (Rom. 2: 8)
Perhaps it means the wicked are not troubled in this world because the don't believe, but watch out for the next.
God bless

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Whoa! We cannot allow ourselves to come to conclusion about verses we perhaps don't understand to contradict plain verses everyone who has ears understands. God so loved the world, not just the elect, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever (that's anyone) should not not perish but have eternal life. (John 3: 16)
God is most certainly going to punish the wicked. (Rom. 2: 8)
Perhaps it means the wicked are not troubled in this world because the don't believe, but watch out for the next.
God bless

all scripture must harmonize, and we can not ignore any of them. I think the world under consideration in John 3:16 is the world of the elect, those who already believe. Is your estimation of the world in John 3:16 the same world that God said he prayed not for in John 17:9? Romans 2:8, In order to keep this scripture in context, and understanding that God, at times, calls his children wicked, we have to understand who Paul is talking to which is noted in Romans i:6, that they are "the called of Jesus Christ". In consideration of John 3:16, we must consider what the condition of the natural man, void of the Spirit, is, as indicated in 1 Cor 2:14 that he can not discern spiritual things because they are foolishness unto him. So, the natural man ( who you say is the world in John 3:16 ) will not, and indeed, cannot believe in spiritual things, as I said, all scriptures must harmonize. It is like a puzzle, if you place one piece ( scripture ) wrong you will never see the full picture.

 

[notuptome]

Are you able to tell me what is it that causes some to receive the Word and others to reject the Word.

I believe they have different spirits in them, some respond with gladness to the Gospel message and others respond with hatred and they reject it as utter foolishness.

So I believe it comes down to what spirit a man has in them, those who are being led by the Holy Spirit, respond to Gods Word by believing. The others refuse to believe no matter how much you plead with them, they go to the grave denying Gods Word.

This is why I believe a person is either born with the gift to believe or they're not.

John 3:18:21 Just because you believe it does not make it true according to the word of God.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You have taken two Scriptures OUT OF CONTEXT to prove that God does not love mankind. And you have also misunderstood Rev 3:19.

Perhaps you should now find a Scripture which actually indicates what is in your title.

Ok, sense you are so much more informed than I, explain these two scriptures to me.

 

[notuptome]

all scripture must harmonize, and we can not ignore any of them. I think the world under consideration in John 3:16 is the world of the elect, those who already believe. Is your estimation of the world in John 3:16 the same world that God said he prayed not for in John 17:9? Romans 2:8, In order to keep this scripture in context, and understanding that God, at times, calls his children wicked, we have to understand who Paul is talking to which is noted in Romans i:6, that they are "the called of Jesus Christ". In consideration of John 3:16, we must consider what the condition of the natural man, void of the Spirit, is, as indicated in 1 Cor 2:14 that he can not discern spiritual things because they are foolishness unto him. So, the natural man ( who you say is the world in John 3:16 ) will not, and indeed, cannot believe in spiritual things, as I said, all scriptures must harmonize. It is like a puzzle, if you place one piece ( scripture ) wrong you will never see the full picture.

This is one of the fatal flaws in Calvinism. Will not is not cannot. Total depravity is not total inability. Being unable to save oneself is not unable to respond to the gospel.

You are attempting to make an ideology fit the scriptures instead of receiving the soteriology scripture teaches.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ForestGreenCook]

This is one of the fatal flaws in Calvinism. Will not is not cannot. Total depravity is not total inability. Being unable to save oneself is not unable to respond to the gospel.

You are attempting to make an ideology fit the scriptures instead of receiving the soteriology scripture teaches.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What part of "NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM" do you not understand?

 

[notuptome]

What part of "NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM" do you not understand?

What part of God loves you do you not understand?

Every man is able to understand that he is a sinner before God. Every man can understand that his sin merits eternal condemnation. Every man is able to understand that Christ died for him. Even you can understand that simple gospel message.

The natural man may not understand a lot of church doctrines but man can understand he needs to be saved. It is not what man understands that sets him against God but what he understands all too well. Reject Christ and perish for all eternity. Only by grace purchased through love and mercy can a man be saved.

Election occurs after salvation not before. Regeneration happens at the time of salvation not before. Indwelling of the Holy Spirit happens at the moment of salvation not before.

A natural man does not understand the mechanics of salvation but he does see and understand his need to be saved. Even a little child can see and understand his need to be saved. He may not understand all the grownup stuff in salvation but he can see he must be saved or spend eternity in hell with the devil and his angels.

Lu 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

Humble your self and come to Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger