Free will is an unbiblical concept

[Karraster]

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

Many use the above passage to claim there is no free will. However, if you look to the source of this quote, it is clearly shown that the clay would not yield to the Master's hand. Have you ever thrown a pot? Sometimes that clay will not behave. Read Jeremiah 18, perhaps you will see what Paul was referring to. The clay has a choice.

 

[devoiler]

Satan means (Betrayer of God). which is what he did and what he is called from that point on.

Satan means adversary. The main Satan in the bible is the adversary of mankind not God the Father. Satan is 'subordinate' to God the Father. Read Job to understand the role of Satan. Lucifer is not Satan. Historically, mischievous people have created various myths that have caused a great deal of confusion.

 

[Alertandawake]

Historically, mischievous people have created various myths that have caused a great deal of confusion.

Still happens today, but in the form of crazy doctrines that make absolutely no sense.

 

[BibleStudent100]

If God is all powerful, all knowing and totally Sovereign, there is no such thing as free will.
The idea of free will implies that there is a force outside of God's control.
That would mean that God is not omnipotent or Sovereign.
Where in the bible does it teach that human beings have free will? Hmm?

Claiming that we have "free will" is tantamount to self-deification because it dethrones God as King and replaces it with self.

In the Bible cases are also presented in which God did foreknow the course that certain groups, nations, or the majority of mankind would take, and thus he foretold the basic course of their future actions and foreordained what corresponding action he would take regarding them. However, such foreknowledge or foreordination does not deprive the individuals within such collective groups or divisions of mankind of exercising free choice as to the particular course they will follow. Although there are many examples, let me share one:

God’s Son, who also could read the hearts of men (Mt 9:4; Mr 2:8; Joh 2:24, 25), was divinely endowed with powers of foreknowledge and foretold future conditions, events, and expressions of divine judgment. He foretold the judgment of Gehenna for the scribes and Pharisees as a class (Mt 23:15, 33) but did not say thereby that each individual Pharisee or scribe was foredoomed to destruction, as the case of the apostle Paul shows. (Ac 26:4, 5) Jesus predicted woes for unrepentant Jerusalem and other cities, but he did not indicate that his Father had foreordained that each individual of those cities should so suffer. (Mt 11:20-23; Lu 19:41-44; 21:20, 21) He also foreknew what mankind’s inclination and heart attitude would lead to and foretold the conditions that would have developed among mankind by the time of “the conclusion of the system of things,” as well as the outworkings of God’s own purposes. (Mt 24:3, 7-14, 21, 22) Jesus’ apostles likewise declared prophecies manifesting God’s foreknowledge of certain classes, such as the “antichrist” (1Jo 2:18, 19; 2Jo 7), and also the end to which such classes are foreordained.—2Th 2:3-12; 2Pe 2:1-3; Jude 4.

You may be thinking about Judas Iscariot as an example; if so, please respond and we can discuss that specific example.


Christian Greetings,


David

 

[Endoscopy]

If God is all powerful, all knowing and totally Sovereign, there is no such thing as free will.
The idea of free will implies that there is a force outside of God's control.
That would mean that God is not omnipotent or Sovereign.
Where in the bible does it teach that human beings have free will? Hmm?

Claiming that we have "free will" is tantamount to self-deification because it dethrones God as King and replaces it with self.

It is obvious you are Armenian in your beliefs. Calvinist hold an opposing view. It gets into the Quinquarticular Controversy. Each has their 5 points of disagreement. Armenians first created their 5 point list and the Calvinist created theirs in response. The Apostles Creed was created in 312 with the first recorded document dating to 390. The purpose of the creed is to define the beliefs a person must have to be a Christian. Anything opposed is heresy. Anything outside of it is to agree to disagree. When formulated by the early elders there was and continues to this day many issues of disagreement. These opposing views are part of them. There are many gospel teaching denominations that are evidence of the different points of view. This includes Calvinism and Armenianism with shades in between. All back up their view with Biblical references. Agree to disagree!

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

 

[Endoscopy]

5 minute rule struck again. Looked up the scripture for item 1 of Calvinism.
1. Total depravity

Romans 8:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Armenians have opposing scripture.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

If God is all powerful, all knowing and totally Sovereign, there is no such thing as free will.
The idea of free will implies that there is a force outside of God's control.
That would mean that God is not omnipotent or Sovereign.
Where in the bible does it teach that human beings have free will? Hmm?

Claiming that we have "free will" is tantamount to self-deification because it dethrones God as King and replaces it with self.

God is sovereign in our eternal deliverance, but he has given us a free will to choose how we want to live our lives here on earth. There are several scriptures where God tells us to choose certain things.

 

[garee]

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

Many use the above passage to claim there is no free will. However, if you look to the source of this quote, it is clearly shown that the clay would not yield to the Master's hand. Have you ever thrown a pot? Sometimes that clay will not behave. Read Jeremiah 18, perhaps you will see what Paul was referring to. The clay has a choice.

The clay has a responsibility to be conformed the will of the Potter as the kind of food the disciples knew not of .The Son of man's food was to do the will of the Potter .Free will to a new creature is to do the will of God who does work in us to both will and perform His good pleasure. If we deny him in unbelief, no faith, we fall and His hands must draw us upward again and again all the days of our lives.

John 4:33-35 King James Version (KJV)Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

"Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest".The work is there will we be moved to perform it or deny it in unbelief (no faith) and call that free will?

 

[Endoscopy]

God is sovereign in our eternal deliverance, but he has given us a free will to choose how we want to live our lives here on earth. There are several scriptures where God tells us to choose certain things.

There is division on this issue. The Calvinist believe man has a be touched by God in order for him to choose God. Arminians believe man has the free will to choose by himself. This is an issue to agree to disagree on. Since I don't know the mind of God I leave it to God. The Apostles Creed is the required beliefs that define a Christian. Since this is not in the creed just agree to disagree.

 

[FlyingDove]

If God is all powerful, all knowing and totally Sovereign, there is no such thing as free will.
The idea of free will implies that there is a force outside of God's control.
That would mean that God is not omnipotent or Sovereign.
Where in the bible does it teach that human beings have free will? Hmm?

Claiming that we have "free will" is tantamount to self-deification because it dethrones God as King and replaces it with self.

1st:
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
(NOTE: The KEY here is that God: GAVE man dominion over earth)

Adam & Eve were given DOMINION & the power of CHOICE. Eat from the tree of knowledge or not. They choose wrong.

2ndly We CHOOSE:
John 3:16 & God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
(NOTE: Believers - ONLY - in the Son - NOT EVERYONE - """HAVE""" PRESENT TENSE everlasting life)

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
(NOTE: Jesus said; His sheep = BELIEVERS ONLY. Hear & follow Him)

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(NOTE: Jesus gives His sheep = BELIEVERS ONLY, eternal life)

John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(NOTE: Who ever BELIEVES """NOT EVERYONE in Christ, shall never die)

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(NOTE: Whosoever shall call on the name - BELIEVERS ONLY - on the Lord shall be saved)

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(NOTE: Whosoever shall call on the name of Christ - BELIEVERS ONLY - shall not be ashamed)

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
(NOTE: Whosoever shall CONFESS """NOT EVERYONE""" Jesus is God's sent Son)

Finally:

Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and we shall all eat the fruits thereof.
(NOTE: In the end, we will "ALL EAT" the FRUIT of our CHOICE)

Matthew 12:37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Ultimately we ALL only have "TWO REAL CHOICES"

CHOICE 1: Accept by Faith Christ's Redemptive Sin Atoning Death, Burial & Resurrection unto justification, and eternal life with God. See how Romans 10:8-13.

CHOICE 2: Reject God's Grace & Christ's Atonement unto condemnation, & eternal separation from God.

John 12:48 Jesus said; the one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

It's recorded every time in our life, God offers us His Grace (Right Now!). To receive Christ's Sin Atonement, by faith. Is we CHOOSE to rejected it. Our CHOICE will be played back to us on judgement day.

OUR CHOICE/FREE WILL - BELIEF OR UNBELIEF

Unbelievers Are Condemned
John 3:18 But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: Unbelievers in the son - NOT EVERYONE - are already & will be condemned)

Believers Have Eternal Life
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: BELIEVERS ONLY """hath""" - present tense - eternal life. Anyone that - BELIEVES NOT - in/on the Son """hath not""" eternal life, but, the wrath of God will befall them)

Fact is: Only two "REAL CHOICES". May we all choose wisely!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There is division on this issue. The Calvinist believe man has a be touched by God in order for him to choose God. Arminians believe man has the free will to choose by himself. This is an issue to agree to disagree on. Since I don't know the mind of God I leave it to God. The Apostles Creed is the required beliefs that define a Christian. Since this is not in the creed just agree to disagree.

I do not believe in "agree to disagree". I believe that all divinely inspired scriptures will harmonize. Both of your statements (Calvinist and Arminians) are true. The scriptures harmonize in the fact that God gave man a freedom of choice as to how they want to live their lives here on earth, but God is sovereign in his choice of who he delivers eternally. I will give you harmonizing scriptures if you like.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

1st:
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
(NOTE: The KEY here is that God: GAVE man dominion over earth)

Adam & Eve were given DOMINION & the power of CHOICE. Eat from the tree of knowledge or not. They choose wrong.

2ndly We CHOOSE:
John 3:16 & God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
(NOTE: Believers - ONLY - in the Son - NOT EVERYONE - """HAVE""" PRESENT TENSE everlasting life)

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
(NOTE: Jesus said; His sheep = BELIEVERS ONLY. Hear & follow Him)

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(NOTE: Jesus gives His sheep = BELIEVERS ONLY, eternal life)

John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(NOTE: Who ever BELIEVES """NOT EVERYONE in Christ, shall never die)

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(NOTE: Whosoever shall call on the name - BELIEVERS ONLY - on the Lord shall be saved)

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(NOTE: Whosoever shall call on the name of Christ - BELIEVERS ONLY - shall not be ashamed)

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
(NOTE: Whosoever shall CONFESS """NOT EVERYONE""" Jesus is God's sent Son)

Finally:

Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and we shall all eat the fruits thereof.
(NOTE: In the end, we will "ALL EAT" the FRUIT of our CHOICE)

Matthew 12:37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Ultimately we ALL only have "TWO REAL CHOICES"

CHOICE 1: Accept by Faith Christ's Redemptive Sin Atoning Death, Burial & Resurrection unto justification, and eternal life with God. See how Romans 10:8-13.

CHOICE 2: Reject God's Grace & Christ's Atonement unto condemnation, & eternal separation from God.

John 12:48 Jesus said; the one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

It's recorded every time in our life, God offers us His Grace (Right Now!). To receive Christ's Sin Atonement, by faith. Is we CHOOSE to rejected it. Our CHOICE will be played back to us on judgement day.

OUR CHOICE/FREE WILL - BELIEF OR UNBELIEF

Unbelievers Are Condemned
John 3:18 But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: Unbelievers in the son - NOT EVERYONE - are already & will be condemned)

Believers Have Eternal Life
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: BELIEVERS ONLY """hath""" - present tense - eternal life. Anyone that - BELIEVES NOT - in/on the Son """hath not""" eternal life, but, the wrath of God will befall them)

Fact is: Only two "REAL CHOICES". May we all choose wisely!

God has given man a freedom of choice as to how he wants to live his life here on earth, but man's eternal destination is by God's choice without the help of man. You will get a lot of flack over your view of John 3:16, but I agree with your explanation of it.

 

[Endoscopy]

You

I do not believe in "agree to disagree". I believe that all divinely inspired scriptures will harmonize. Both of your statements (Calvinist and Arminians) are true. The scriptures harmonize in the fact that God gave man a freedom of choice as to how they want to live their lives here on earth, but God is sovereign in his choice of who he delivers eternally. I will give you harmonizing scriptures if you like.

You ignore the historical issue since the early elders. There were differences of opinion on scripture from the 200s. Your view is very flawed. I defy you to explain eschatology. It is taken from Daniel and Revelation. Daniel states it is closed until the end times. Revelation is written the same way.

End times (eschatology)
Here are 4 different links to the 4 theological Biblical views of eschatology.

This is because Daniel and Revelation are written in symbolic language. Daniel plainly states it is closed until the end times. Revelation is written the same way so it too is closed. Here are the 4 different view of the eschatology. All are Biblical. This is the worst case but diverse views occur on a lot of scripture. Historically the early elders disagreed on diverse issues. Explain why there are so many different gospel preaching denominations!!!

https://www.exploregod.com/biblical-prophecy-four-views-of-the-end-times

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

http://www.christianciv.com/eschatology_bs_Sect1.htm

http://executableoutlines.com/end/end_01.htm

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It is obvious you are Armenian in your beliefs. Calvinist hold an opposing view. It gets into the Quinquarticular Controversy. Each has their 5 points of disagreement. Armenians first created their 5 point list and the Calvinist created theirs in response. The Apostles Creed was created in 312 with the first recorded document dating to 390. The purpose of the creed is to define the beliefs a person must have to be a Christian. Anything opposed is heresy. Anything outside of it is to agree to disagree. When formulated by the early elders there was and continues to this day many issues of disagreement. These opposing views are part of them. There are many gospel teaching denominations that are evidence of the different points of view. This includes Calvinism and Armenianism with shades in between. All back up their view with Biblical references. Agree to disagree!

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

I have never studied Calvin's writings, or any other man's interpretation of the scriptures. There are no disharmony in the scriptures and they prove themselves.

 

[Endoscopy]

I have never studied Calvin's writings, or any other man's interpretation of the scriptures. There are no disharmony in the scriptures and they prove themselves.

ROFL
You are very naive. There are very different opinions on the meaning of many scriptures. There have been historically going back to the 200s. The Apostles Creed was created by the early elders to state the beliefs a Christian must have. All other issues were to be agree to disagree. There were many diverse opinions back then. Coming down to today there are many different denominations with the gospel being preached. Explain this away!! According to you most are wrong with only handful adhering to your view as correct. Sorry Charlie (old Sunkist Tuna add) you are absolutely wrong historically and currently.

Calvinism and Armenianism are diametrically opposed and both use scripture to defend their point of view.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You

You ignore the historical issue since the early elders. There were differences of opinion on scripture from the 200s. Your view is very flawed. I defy you to explain eschatology. It is taken from Daniel and Revelation. Daniel states it is closed until the end times. Revelation is written the same way.

End times (eschatology)
Here are 4 different links to the 4 theological Biblical views of eschatology.

This is because Daniel and Revelation are written in symbolic language. Daniel plainly states it is closed until the end times. Revelation is written the same way so it too is closed. Here are the 4 different view of the eschatology. All are Biblical. This is the worst case but diverse views occur on a lot of scripture. Historically the early elders disagreed on diverse issues. Explain why there are so many different gospel preaching denominations!!!

https://www.exploregod.com/biblical-prophecy-four-views-of-the-end-times

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

http://www.christianciv.com/eschatology_bs_Sect1.htm

http://executableoutlines.com/end/end_01.htm

I do not rely on any man's views of how they interpret the scriptures. The inspired scriptures prove themselves and are the only source of the truth of Jesus's doctrine. I did not read your presentation of man's views of the scriptures. There are many things in the scriptures that God did not deem necessary for us to know, stating that his ways are higher than our ways. There are so many different denominations because of a lack of knowledge of the scriptures. The understanding of the truth of the scriptures is given by revelation from the Holy Spirit that dwells within every child of God. I believe the scriptures teach that all of the different denominations that are worshiping God are actually children of God born of the Spirit. If man is depending upon his own intellect to get delivered eternally, the Holy Spirit will not reveal the truth of the scriptures to him. God tells us to mortify the deeds of the body (Romans 8:13), and to deny himself, and take up his cross and follow me. If a child of God is trusting in his works for eternal salvation God will not allow the Spirit within him to reveal the truth to him, else he would take the credit for himself, instead of giving God credit. I believe that the two gates, explained in Matt 7:13-14, are born again children of God who enter both gates. Those going into the Wide gate are those who are believing and preaching eternal salvation by their works, and those that are going into the straight gate are those who have denied themselves and have been revealed, by the Holy Spirit within them, the truth of Jesus's doctrine. The life that the narrow way leads to is not eternal life, but the peaceful life we can enjoy as we live here on earth by obeying God's commandments. The inspired scriptures are instructions to God's children, instructing them how to live there lives here on earth, and are not instructions on how to get saved eternally.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

ROFL
You are very naive. There are very different opinions on the meaning of many scriptures. There have been historically going back to the 200s. The Apostles Creed was created by the early elders to state the beliefs a Christian must have. All other issues were to be agree to disagree. There were many diverse opinions back then. Coming down to today there are many different denominations with the gospel being preached. Explain this away!! According to you most are wrong with only handful adhering to your view as correct. Sorry Charlie (old Sunkist Tuna add) you are absolutely wrong historically and currently.

Calvinism and Armenianism are diametrically opposed and both use scripture to defend their point of view.

Do you defend your point of view by quoting what historians say? Do you not believe that all scriptures must harmonize? If I am naive because I do not consider man's interpretation of the scriptures, then, so be it.

 

[Endoscopy]

Do you defend your point of view by quoting what historians say? Do you not believe that all scriptures must harmonize? If I am naive because I do not consider man's interpretation of the scriptures, then, so be it.

I refer to the fact that at that time the elders created the creed and allowed the Christians to have diverse opinions outside of it. This is what the elders did and wrote about. You are ignoring this fact. It was devout Christians not ordinary historians. Today we still have all of those issues today in the diverse gospel preaching denominations. Your ego is getting in the way of reality. Keep in mind that you are accusing yourself since you are taking a stand on your private view of what you yourself believe ignoring the many devout Christians believe otherwise. What makes your view so perfect when so many other Christians view what the meaning of the inerrant scriptures say is different from yours.

Suck it up and understand that you are not the only one who can understand what the meaning of the scriptures is. You are a fallible person like the rest of it are. That is why all of the diverse opinions exist that you disregard!!

 

[UnderGrace]

Satan means adversary. The main Satan in the bible is the adversary of mankind not God the Father. Satan is 'subordinate' to God the Father. Read Job to understand the role of Satan. Lucifer is not Satan. Historically, mischievous people have created various myths that have caused a great deal of confusion.

I agree there is no Lucifer only Satan.

 

[LW97]

So John 3:16 according to you:
For God so loved the elect that he gave his only begotten that whosoever is chosen by him will believe in him and not perish but have everlasting life