For Catholics

[Maynard]

Re: Mary not your mother???

As usual your interpretation misses the mark by a million miles. Jesus was fulfilling the OT law by taking care of Mary's needs here on the earth. A woman needed to be under the authority of a man. Jesus did not neglect His mother's welfare. Even in this little detail Jesus fulfilled the law and Jewish tradition.

The apostles and disciples were exhorted to tend to the widows and to not neglect their care and well being. Very different social structure back then but perhaps it was in a way better than what we have now. Ever notice how many elderly are in nursing homes and never receive a visit from their families?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Oh, but wouldn't you say, Roger (and the rest of you), that Mary had other natural birth children besides Jesus?? That Jesus had siblings? If so then they would have taken care of her, wouldn't they? She would have gone and lived with them, not John. Right, Roger?
Your point in accordance with your Protestant beliefs doesn't make sense.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Re: Mary not your mother???

As usual your interpretation misses the mark by a million miles. Jesus was fulfilling the OT law by taking care of Mary's needs here on the earth. A woman needed to be under the authority of a man. Jesus did not neglect His mother's welfare. Even in this little detail Jesus fulfilled the law and Jewish tradition.

The apostles and disciples were exhorted to tend to the widows and to not neglect their care and well being. Very different social structure back then but perhaps it was in a way better than what we have now. Ever notice how many elderly are in nursing homes and never receive a visit from their families?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Oh, but wouldn't you say, Roger (and the rest of you), that Mary had other natural birth children besides Jesus?? That Jesus had siblings? If so then they would have taken care of her, wouldn't they? She would have gone and lived with them, not John. Right, Roger?
Your point in accordance with your Protestant beliefs doesn't make sense.

I see where both of you are coming from, but this has nothing to do with placing Mary as our mother as well.

This is about our responsibility under Gods grace, and the love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that we are all charged with taking care of others. We are all connected and part of one body under our Lords covenant.
We are not to revere others as being of greater authority in faith then ourselves. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ, and are commissioned to take care and edify each other.

 

[notuptome]

Re: Mary not your mother???

Oh, but wouldn't you say, Roger (and the rest of you), that Mary had other natural birth children besides Jesus?? That Jesus had siblings? If so then they would have taken care of her, wouldn't they? She would have gone and lived with them, not John. Right, Roger?
Your point in accordance with your Protestant beliefs doesn't make sense.

Jesus was first born and it was His responsibility to address the issue. I know it troubles your wishy washy view of the world but that is the way it is.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Maynard]

Re: Mary not your mother???

Jesus was first born and it was His responsibility to address the issue. I know it troubles your wishy washy view of the world but that is the way it is.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

LOL
Boy, well then Jesus' siblings must have really been pissed when he took it upon himself to give their own birth mother away to that other guy.

I bet they were all....

 

[notuptome]

Re: Mary not your mother???

LOL
Boy, well then Jesus' siblings must have really been pissed when he took it upon himself to give their own birth mother away to that other guy.

I bet they were all.... View attachment 87809

Out of the mouth come the issues of the heart. I see nothing of virtue in what you attribute to Christ.

As God He knew what was ahead for each disciple and His siblings. Do you deny Him the prerogative to do what was best for Mary?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Maynard]

Re: Mary not your mother???

And yet again Roger's argument stumbles.... and falls.

 

[Allin]

Re: Mary not your mother???

And yet again Roger's argument stumbles.... and falls.

Maynard, your argument fell flat before it began, because Catholicism is a man-made religion and not one that Jesus or any of the apostles instituted. I don't expect you to change your mind; your mind is your own, not mine to manipulate. But God, who knew beforehand that Catholicism and Mary worship would spring up, made it clear several times in the NT where Mary's importance in the overall scheme lay. Here are two instances where Jesus makes it plain that His obligation is to His spiritual brethren and not to Mary or His natural family:

1. While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside to speak with You." But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother" (Matt. 12:46-50).

2. It happened, as [Jesus taught], that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts which nursed You!" But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it" (Lk. 11:27-28).

The second passage is especially telling if you know a bit about Jewish custom of the time: some versions translate it as "Blessed rather". "More than that" is a pretty straight-forward way of saying "instead" or "rather"; it means "more importantly" or "of primary importance". "More than that, blessed are those who hear..." In that passage, Jesus says that it isn't Mary who was/is blessed but instead everyone who walks with God in obedience. His distinction between the two is plain. In Jewish custom, you didn't reply to a "Blessed is the womb who bore you" with an "Ah, not really..." Jesus categorically places Mary, in importance, behind everyone who obeys God's Word (unless she also followed His Word (which she did) which would then put her on the same level of importance as everyone else who did the same).

There is no real way to get around Jesus' estimation of Mary's importance in the overall scheme; and it helps to know that His Kingdom doesn't run by vertical rule (hierarchy: rule from top to bottom), therefore the argument that Mary is above anyone in importance is already dead. Jesus' Kingdom runs by horizontal rule which is 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.: those who hear and obey God are 1st; then some are 2nd; and others are 3rd. Mary could not be the object of worship or whatever, because in the Kingdom, only God is above (vertical rule); on earth, all rule pertaining to God and Christianity is right only when it is horizontal. Anywhere you see vertical rule or leadership (with some above and some below), whether Christian or Catholic, God is not in it. You can bet on it. That automatically cancels out the entire Catholic structure and the belief that Mary is somehow 'above' other human beings. Check out my signature to see Jesus reiterate this point.

 

[Allin]

Re: Mary not your mother???

And yet again Roger's argument stumbles.... and falls.

Here is the passage I took my signature from where Jesus' disciples were all jockeying for important positions and greatness:

Jesus called [His disciples] to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave-- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many" (Matt. 20:25-28).

Jesus told His disciples that the Gentiles (i.e. sinners, those who are not in right standing before God) naturally seek to exercise rule in a vertical way: they lord over and exercise authority over which is from an above position. Jesus said that in His Kingdom, anyone who wants to be important ("great", not above as in vertical religion) should take a secondary position and that whoever wants to be first (horizontal relationships and leadership) should be willing to be last (a slave).

So, who is "whoever desires to be great"? He is the same person who "desires to be first". It's saying the same thing twice: great = first, and servant = slave. Jesus is talking about rule ('the one who desires to be great or be first' is translated, in Kingdom speak, as 'the one who desires to lead'). If Jesus' model of leadership or authority is horizontal (relationship-centered), then the Catholic church with its vertical, Gentile model of rule cannot have sprung from Jesus nor Peter who followed Jesus' model.

 

[ThomistColin]

And yet even the founders of the Protest called her "the Mother of God." "For any man who denies Mary's virginity, prior, during, and after the birth of our Lord is anathema to the Christian faith." -Martin Luther
"We all know that our Lord's mother has become our mother, she is the mother of God and His Church." -John Calvin

Both of those statements were made after their breaking away from the Catholic Church.

 

[Maynard]

Re: Mary not your mother???

Maynard, your argument fell flat before it began, because Catholicism is a man-made religion

LOL! Allin, your youtube videos are idiotic! You cannot really expect anyone to take that crap seriously.
When you base your hate-monger arguments on such a ridiculous foundation as posting idiotic youtube video's then you lose all credibility. So shallow and misinformed. It's a pity really, and very funny.

and not one that Jesus or any of the apostles instituted. I don't expect you to change your mind; your mind is your own, not mine to manipulate. But God, who knew beforehand that Catholicism and Mary worship would spring up, made it clear several times in the NT where Mary's importance in the overall scheme lay. Here are two instances where Jesus makes it plain that His obligation is to His spiritual brethren and not to Mary or His natural family:

1. While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside to speak with You." But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother" (Matt. 12:46-50).

1. The Meaning of Brother
The first thing to understand is that the term brother (Gk. adelphos) has a broader meaning than uterine brothers. It can mean a biological brother, but it can also mean an extended relative, or even a spiritual brother.
Take Genesis 13:8 for example. Here the word brother is being used to describe the relationship between Abraham and Lot, who were not biological brothers but uncle and nephew:

“So Abram said to Lot, “Let’s not have any quarreling between you and me, or between your herdsmen and mine, for we are brothers” (Gen 13:8, NIV; see also 14:12).

Because of the Bible’s broad semantic range of “brother,” we can rest assured that although St. Paul writes, “[Jesus] appeared to more than five hundred…brothers at the same time” (1 Cor. 15:6), we need not infer from this verse that Mary gave birth to more than 500 children!

2. Children of Mary?
These “brothers” are never once called the children of Mary, although Jesus himself is (John 2:1; Acts 1:14).

Jesus had Brothers?

2. It happened, as [Jesus taught], that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts which nursed You!" But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it" (Lk. 11:27-28).

And who is it that "heard the word of God and kept it" more than any other but Mary? Total submission to God's will in her life.
Look into Christ's words there in Luke 11, Allin, and you will see that still he is speaking of Mary his mother.

We find in the first chapter of Luke her complete obedience to the word of God;
And Mary said, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done unto me according to thy word." And the angel departed from her.
- Luke 1:38

She is our perfect example of 'hearing the word of God and keeping it'. Nowhere else in the NT will you find a greater example of obedience to God. Nowhere else in all of scripture in fact.

She follows her response of obedience with her beautiful fiat;
"My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord,
my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant.
From this day all generations will call me blessed:
the Almighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his Name."
- Luke 1:46-49

For goodness sake, man! Put down the youtube crap and read the first chapter of Luke!

 

[Allin]

And yet even the founders of the Protest called her "the Mother of God." "For any man who denies Mary's virginity, prior, during, and after the birth of our Lord is anathema to the Christian faith." -Martin Luther
"We all know that our Lord's mother has become our mother, she is the mother of God and His Church." -John Calvin

Both of those statements were made after their breaking away from the Catholic Church.

God hasn't called Protestants or Catholics to salvation but all people to be saved by only one person: Jesus Christ. Therefore, we must go by what Jesus said primarily and most importantly, because He was the only person who never sinned and therefore who is, along with all that He says, perfect.

Jesus made it clear that Mary has no place in Christianity and worship and that everyone who hears and obeys His Word is more important than she is. He was direct and unequivocal with His words. He made it clear that the only thing that could make Mary important was if she heard and obeyed His Word which would bring her up in status (rather than Christians having to rise to her status, she would have to rise to the status of Christians; that is humbling, but it is the truth). And He made it clear that if she did hear and obey His Word, she would be only as important as everyone else who did and not a bit more important. Again, I want to make it clear that He put her at the bottom of the heap in terms of importance and nowhere around the top. Her importance, as with all human beings, is only in Jesus Christ and to the extent she followed Him, making her the equal of others (i.e. bringing her from unimportance to equal importance).

I know it's a slap in the face to Catholicism to say that Mary, who bore Jesus, is not better or greater than other human beings. But God always works in humility in order to cut off humanity's chance to boast since we are 99.9% inclined to boast in our own merit: Jesus was born in a manger and was an example of humility from beginning to end. It must be that way with all true Christianity. Mary bore Jesus, but that did not elevate her status in Heaven or on earth; rather, when she believed in Jesus, she rose into the status of believer, coming from a lower position under those who believed and into the position of a fellow believer. You have to go outside of the Bible to contradict God's (or the overall) real view of Mary that I have just written about which is according to the Bible and the testimony of Jesus Himself.

 

[Allin]

Re: Mary not your mother???

For goodness sake, man! Put down the youtube crap and read the first chapter of Luke!

Maynard, you and Thomist work well together, but I'm heading out for the day. I do want to say first that I know Lk. 1 exceptionally well; it's amazing how vv. 78-79 is a summary of Isa. 9:1-7. But you might want to read Acts 17:22-31, especially vv. 30-31. Just take about seven seconds to read those two verses, then you can continue defending a church which is destined for God's wrath and judgment.

 

[Maynard]

Jesus made it clear that Mary has no place in Christianity...
I know it's a slap in the face to Catholicism to say that Mary, who bore Jesus, is not better or greater than other human beings.

The Word of God (and Elizabeth) say otherwise, Allin.

“Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child in your womb!

And who am I that the mother of my Lord should come and visit me?"

 

[damombomb]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Sanserif] The apostle Paul also refers to James as the brother of Jesus in Galatians 1:19: "But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother

Matt:
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18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Sanserif][/FONT]24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

If he knew her after, i am sure they had children.
The meaning of knew= consecrated marriage, same as when Adam knew Eve and she conceived

Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ, but she is not going to save you

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[Maynard]

The apostle Paul also refers to James as the brother of Jesus in Galatians 1:19: "But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother

Because neither Hebrew nor Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ and his disciples) had a special word meaning "cousin," speakers of those languages could use either the word for "brother" or a circumlocution, such as "the son of my uncle." But circumlocutions are clumsy, so the Jews often used "brother."

The writers of the New Testament were brought up using the Aramaic equivalent of "brothers" to mean both cousins and sons of the same father—plus other relatives and even non-relatives. When they wrote in Greek, they did the same thing the translators of the Septuagint did. (The Septuagint was the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible; it was translated by Hellenistic Jews a century or two before Christ’s birth and was the version of the Bible from which most of the Old Testament quotations found in the New Testament are taken.)

In the Septuagint the Hebrew word that includes both brothers and cousins was translated as adelphos, which in Greek usually has the narrow meaning that the English "brother" has. Unlike Hebrew or Aramaic, Greek has a separate word for cousin, anepsios, but the translators of the Septuagint used adelphos, even for true cousins.
You might say they transliterated instead of translated, importing the Jewish idiom into the Greek Bible. They took an exact equivalent of the Hebrew word for "brother" and did not use adelphosin one place (for sons of the same parents), and anepsios in another (for cousins). This same usage was employed by the writers of the New Testament and passed into English translations of the Bible. To determine what "brethren" or "brother" or "sister" means in any one verse, we have to look at the context. When we do that, we see that insuperable problems arise if we assume that Mary had children other than Jesus.
"Brethren of the Lord" | Answers

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

If he knew her after, i am sure they had children.

It doesn't say "he knew her after", damombomb. It says "knew her not until". Big difference. Read this through...

Look.
"Until Then"
Scripture’s statement that Joseph "knew [Mary] not until she brought forth her firstborn" would NOT necessarily mean they did "know" each other after she brought forth Jesus. Until is often used in Scripture as part of an idiomatic expression similar to our own usage in English.
A phrase like this is used to emphasize what is being described before the until is fulfilled. It is not intended to say anything about the future beyond that point. Here are some biblical examples:

• 1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, "he will reign over the house of Jacob forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end.")
  
• 1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?)
  
• 2 Samuel 6:23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to (until) the day of her death. (Does this mean she had children after she died?)

"Until"


As demonstrated throughout scripture by the use of the word "until", Matthew 1:25's "until" is no proof whatsoever that Joseph and Mary ever had a sexual relationship. Actually indicates otherwise when put next to other uses of the word "until" in scripture, as shown in those examples provided.

 

[damombomb]

Maynard,do you believe Joseph married Mary?

 

[Maynard]

Maynard,do you believe Joseph married Mary?

Yep.
You are asking me that, I'm sure, because you assume that every married couple must have sexual relations.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yep.
You are asking me that, I'm sure, because you assume that every married couple must have sexual relations.

What you said about James being Jesus cousin instead of brother is a lie, and a Catholic cover-up.

It is a well known historical fact that the Catholic church tried to cover up, and still keep people in the false truth that Mary and Joseph did have other children. The Catholic church covered it up because they felt it would destroy her deity that they put on her.

She still is a wonderful woman of God who was chosen to give birth to our Lord.
But she is not a deity, and she is no different than you or me in our walk with the Lord. We are all chosen to do and hold different parts in the church body. Like I said before, and like others have tried to show you, we are all brothers, and sisters in Christ.

 

[damombomb]

Yep.
You are asking me that, I'm sure, because you assume that every married couple must have sexual relations.

…23"BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US." 24And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
Lk 1:34
“Then Mary said to the angel, ‘How *can* this be, since I do no not a man.

Matt1:25
But knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
1. They were betrothed, to be married at an appointed time
2. Joseph took her as his wife after angel spoke with him
3.He knew her not until after the birth of Jesus
Isn't this straight from the word

 

[Maynard]

…23"BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US." 24And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
Lk 1:34
“Then Mary said to the angel, ‘How *can* this be, since I do no not a man.

Matt1:25
But knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
1. They were betrothed, to be married at an appointed time
2. Joseph took her as his wife after angel spoke with him
3.He knew her not until after the birth of Jesus
Isn't this straight from the word

You're just pasting scripture.

What's ur point?

If it's Luke 1:25 then scroll up. That's been discussed already,, twice.
Don't just rant. Read too.