Eternal torment VS Annihilation
- Thread starter LW97
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The scripture is very clean in saying "to be absent from the body, is to be in the presence of the Lord is referring to the spirit. It is not speaking about the resurrection and that because to be absent from the body would be referring to the departing of the spirit at the time of death, where the resurrection has to do with standing up again in the same body that you died in.
Now regarding the rich man and Lazarus, this does not in any way read like a parable, as they always use symbolism to represent the literal. Here in the rich man and Lazarus, the literal names of Lazarus and Abraham are used, as well as the literal location of Hades. As I said, the only reason for interpreting this as a parable would be to distort the information contained in the context.
You see that word "grave" up there? That is a false translation. The word used is actually Sheol, which is referring to the realm of departed spirits. Sheol should never be translated as referring to the grave. Wherever the word geber is used in the OT it is referring to grave, tomb, selpulchre. Likewise, whenever the word "Sheol" is used, it is referring to the place of departed spirits. I know, I did a study on everywhere Sheol, Hades and Gehenna are used in scripture and their characteristics:
Sheol/Hades
Characteristics of:
Is down under the earth - Gen.37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 44::31, Num.16:30, 16:33, Deut.32:22, 1 Sam.2:6, 2 kings 2:6, Job 11:7-8, 17:16, Ps.30:3, 86:13, Prov.9:18, 15:24, Isa.5:14, 14:9, 14:11, 14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17, Ezk.32:21, Ezk.32:27, Mt.11:23, Lk.10:15,
* Has multiple levels - Deut.32:22, Job 11:7-8,
* Referred to as the pit - Job 17:13, Ps.30:3, Prov.1:12, Isa.14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17
* Has Chambers - Prov.7:27
* Has Gates/Bars - Job 17:16, Isa.38:10, Mt.16:18
* A place of torment in fire – Lk.16:23-24
* Is a literal entity representing the same location – Rev.6:8, 20:14
Sheol (sheh-ole') The underworld (place to which the spirits of people descend at death)
Hades (hah'-dace) The unseen world:
hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
Now regarding the rich man and Lazarus, this does not in any way read like a parable, as they always use symbolism to represent the literal. Here in the rich man and Lazarus, the literal names of Lazarus and Abraham are used, as well as the literal location of Hades. As I said, the only reason for interpreting this as a parable would be to distort the information contained in the context.
You see that word "grave" up there? That is a false translation. The word used is actually Sheol, which is referring to the realm of departed spirits. Sheol should never be translated as referring to the grave. Wherever the word geber is used in the OT it is referring to grave, tomb, selpulchre. Likewise, whenever the word "Sheol" is used, it is referring to the place of departed spirits. I know, I did a study on everywhere Sheol, Hades and Gehenna are used in scripture and their characteristics:
Sheol/Hades
Characteristics of:
Is down under the earth - Gen.37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 44::31, Num.16:30, 16:33, Deut.32:22, 1 Sam.2:6, 2 kings 2:6, Job 11:7-8, 17:16, Ps.30:3, 86:13, Prov.9:18, 15:24, Isa.5:14, 14:9, 14:11, 14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17, Ezk.32:21, Ezk.32:27, Mt.11:23, Lk.10:15,
* Has multiple levels - Deut.32:22, Job 11:7-8,
* Referred to as the pit - Job 17:13, Ps.30:3, Prov.1:12, Isa.14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17
* Has Chambers - Prov.7:27
* Has Gates/Bars - Job 17:16, Isa.38:10, Mt.16:18
* A place of torment in fire – Lk.16:23-24
* Is a literal entity representing the same location – Rev.6:8, 20:14
Sheol (sheh-ole') The underworld (place to which the spirits of people descend at death)
Hades (hah'-dace) The unseen world:
hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
Yes, having completely died not given a new born again incorruptible spirit and new heart . We understand they will not rise to new spirit life in a hope of their new incorruptible bodies. Clear enough no spirit that could rise. Smoke as the eternal shadow of it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as "it was": and the spirit shall return unto God "who gave it".
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as "it was": and the spirit shall return unto God "who gave it".
Metaphorically, to devour, consume: Properly, to be eaten.
Based on all the other scriptures and the definition of the words olethros, apollumi, apoleia, which do not imply annihilation or extinction, then for fire to metaphorically devour cannot not infer annihilation. We can't throw away the other scriptures and their definitions in favor of the metaphorical meaning of another scripture.
Hell is real and it is a place with fire that devours God's adversaries forever and ever.
Based on all the other scriptures and the definition of the words olethros, apollumi, apoleia, which do not imply annihilation or extinction, then for fire to metaphorically devour cannot not infer annihilation. We can't throw away the other scriptures and their definitions in favor of the metaphorical meaning of another scripture.
Hell is real and it is a place with fire that devours God's adversaries forever and ever.
Atonement is dependent upon having faith in Christ. Therefore, those who continue to not trust in Christ as the One who provided salvation for them, are not atoned for. As I previously posted, "whoever has the Son has life, but whoever does not have the Son does no have life and the wrath of God rests upon him.
As I said, like with the prodigal son and all the other parables, it is symbolism representing the literal. The rich man and Lazarus uses actual names and locations. Most parables can be figured out by the use of the symbols and in many examples we are given the meanings to the symbolic meanings in those parables. The rich man and Lazarus does not read like a parable.
Jesus was giving us insight to an event which most likely took place prior to His coming in the flesh. An insight to what happens with the spirit at the time of death. If one reads it at face value, the information means what it says. Once it is turned it into a parable, you get rid of that information.
On that note, I have errands to run. I will pray that God will reveal the truth behind all that we have discussed. To be continued …..
Jesus was giving us insight to an event which most likely took place prior to His coming in the flesh. An insight to what happens with the spirit at the time of death. If one reads it at face value, the information means what it says. Once it is turned it into a parable, you get rid of that information.
On that note, I have errands to run. I will pray that God will reveal the truth behind all that we have discussed. To be continued …..
Only because it uses names does not disqualify it from being a parable. As I already asked, why would Abraham (and not God) be in charge of Hades? To me it is clear that this parable represents the blessing of being poor, which Jesus mentioned in Matthew 5 & 6. I mean, please read the first 18 Verses of Luke 16. Jesus warns us that we cannot serve two masters. Taken in context, the situation with Lazarus and the Rich Man makes sense. The rich man served money and thought he could have everything, but eventually had nothing.
I do not tend to be unkind, but it looks like both sides start to decide what is metaphorical and what not. I believe the Bible is, at least in most parts literal. But you are right, we are running in circles.
I do not tend to be unkind, but it looks like both sides start to decide what is metaphorical and what not. I believe the Bible is, at least in most parts literal. But you are right, we are running in circles.
