Eternal torment VS Annihilation

[Ahwatukee]

Could you explain what distruction/perish mean to you in your dictionary because in mine it is torn down/destroyed and gone/dead.

Though have already done that many times, I'd be happy to if it might mean that you would understand this truth. Below is an example of scripture using the word "apoleia" translated as "destrucion."

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Below is the definition of the word "apoleia" according to Strong's and HELPS Word-studies:

Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Definition: destruction, loss
Usage: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

The noun "apoleia" is from its verb "apollumi" which as you can see highlighted in red does not imply annihilation, but means to be completely cut off (from God and life). Below is another example of the use of the word:

"When He got into the boat, His disciples followed Him. 24Suddenly a violent storm came up on the sea, so that the boat was engulfed by the waves; but Jesus was sleeping. 25The disciples went and woke Him, saying, “Lord, save us! We are perishing!”

The word translated as "perishing" in the scripture above is the word "apollumi." I think that you will agree that the disciples were not saying to Jesus "Lord save us! We are about to become nonexistent or annihilated!" Below is another example of the meaning of this word:

"And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins—and the wine is destroyed, and so are the skins."

Just as with the first example, the word "apollumi" for the destruction of the wine and wine skins does not refer to them as becoming nonexistent or annihilated, but completely ruined, which is the same meaning for those who enter in through the broad gate which leads to destruction/apollumi. Destruction (apollumi) is not annihilation or extinction, but complete loss of well being in separation from God in the lake of fire.

I will continue to pray that God will reveal the truth of this to you.

 

[Jackson123]

I also believe God is not a liar when he said the wages of sin is DEATH.

No God not lie when he say the wage of sin is death.

If you broke your relation with the source of life, you are death.

Go to hell forever is also call death.

Depend on what you believe what death mean.

Jesus die on the cross, is die in this sentence mean annihilate or disappears?

No, his body is not disappears, it is in the grave, His spirit is still exist somewhere.

So death doestsn't annhilitate.

 

[garee]

I don't need to explain it away because it stems from your lack of understanding what the state of death is according to scripture. You're thinking of death as extinction or annihilation, which it is not. I have already posted this but here it is again: Death is a state of conscious existence in separation from God which is directly related to an individuals standing with God. Those who die unreconciled to God, die in their sins, death being a conscious state of eternal existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. This is the second death. And speaking of the second death, if according to your claim that death means nonexistence then how could the wicked who have already died experience a second death? It demonstrates that their spirits still exist after the first death, with the second death being final separation from God in the lake of fire, which is also a state of on-going existence.

Life = never ending existence in the joy of the Lord and the kingdom of God

Death = never ending existence in separation from God in the lake of fire.

A never ending existence in separation as death from God from who gave us a spirit subject to his will? .The wrath of God being revealed?

A never ending existence in separation of spirit life from God from who gave us a spirit as those who can rise on the last day??

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

A never ending existence in separation as death from God from who gave us a spirit subject to his will? .The wrath of God being revealed?

A never ending existence in separation of spirit life from God from who gave us a spirit as those who can rise on the last day??

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Yes, you are correct, the body does return. And the spirit of the believer returns to God. However, the spirit of the unbeliever goes down into Hades, just as in the example of the rich man of Lazarus fame. To be clear, at the time of death none of the spirits of the wicked goes to be in the presence of God. Read "the rich man and Lazarus" in Luke 16:19-31. And read it in its plain literal sense, not a mystical spiritual one.

 

[JesusLives]

I don't need to explain it away because it stems from your lack of understanding what the state of death is according to scripture. You're thinking of death as extinction or annihilation, which it is not. I have already posted this but here it is again: Death is a state of conscious existence in separation from God which is directly related to an individuals standing with God. Those who die unreconciled to God, die in their sins, death being a conscious state of eternal existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. This is the second death. And speaking of the second death, if according to your claim that death means nonexistence then how could the wicked who have already died experience a second death? It demonstrates that their spirits still exist after the first death, with the second death being final separation from God in the lake of fire, which is also a state of on-going existence.

Life = never ending existence in the joy of the Lord and the kingdom of God

Death = never ending existence in separation from God in the lake of fire.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”

Ecclesiastes 12:7
before dust returns to the earth as it was before and the life-breath returns to God who gave it.

Psalm 115:17
17It is not the dead who praise the LORD, nor any who descend into silence.

I would think if you are in heaven you would praise the Lord but this verse says the dead do not praise the Lord.

It is not a conscience spirit that returns to heaven but the breath of life that God gave as when God created Adam he used the dust of the ground then breathed into man the breath of life then man became a living soul.

We are told by the Bible the dead know nothing meaning they have no memory or aware of anything.

Jesus referred to death as a sleep and unless you dream you are unaware of what is going on around you until you wake up the next morning and life that you are aware of picks up.

 

[Jackson123]

Ecclesiastes 9:5
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”

Ecclesiastes 12:7
before dust returns to the earth as it was before and the life-breath returns to God who gave it.

Psalm 115:17
17It is not the dead who praise the LORD, nor any who descend into silence.

I would think if you are in heaven you would praise the Lord but this verse says the dead do not praise the Lord.

It is not a conscience spirit that returns to heaven but the breath of life that God gave as when God created Adam he used the dust of the ground then breathed into man the breath of life then man became a living soul.

We are told by the Bible the dead know nothing meaning they have no memory or aware of anything.

Jesus referred to death as a sleep and unless you dream you are unaware of what is going on around you until you wake up the next morning and life that you are aware of picks up.

Your argument base on ec 9:5 the death know nothing than you make conclusion the death is annihilate.

Not every verse in the Bible is come from God mouth, so we have to be careful to make conclusion.

Example gen3

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Is genenis 3:4 word of God?

If you think Genesis 3:4 the word of God because in the Bible, and you make a conclusion base on that verse as the word of God, you will be lost like Eve.

Not because a statement or verse in the Bible, automatically the word of God.

You quote a verse that say it is not the dead that praise the lord

Yes people in hell are non believer they are not praise the lord.

Not praise the lord do not mean annihilate.

My friend exist, talk to me every day, but he not praise the lord, because he is not christian.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ecclesiastes 9:5
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”

I notice that instead of responding to the scriptures and information that is presented, you don't respond to them, but just jump to another scripture. The one that you have presented above is popular with those who believe in annihilation and soul-sleep. However, it is not saying what you think it does and does not support yours claim.

Those who have died have “no further reward” in this life; they no longer have the ability to enjoy life like those who are living. Eventually, “even their name is forgotten” (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

Ecclesiastes 12:7

before dust returns to the earth as it was before and the life-breath returns to God who gave it.

"One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

The above is an excerpt from the rich man and Lazarus. It states that both men died, with Lazarus' spirit being taken by the angels to Abraham's side and the rich man's spirit being in Hades in torment in flame. It is the body that returns to the dust of the earth and it is the spirit of the righteous who returns to the Lord. As the Lord revealed to us with the event of the rich man and Lazarus, the spirits of the unrighteous go down into Sheol/Hades. Below are the characteristics of Sheol/Hades

Characteristics of:

Is down under the earth - Gen.37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 44::31, Num.16:30, 16:33, Deut.32:22, 1 Sam.2:6, 2 kings 2:6, Job 11:7-8, 17:16, Ps.30:3, 86:13, Prov.9:18, 15:24, Isa.5:14, 14:9, 14:11, 14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17, Ezk.32:21, Ezk.32:27, Mt.11:23, Lk.10:15,

Has multiple levels - Deut.32:22, Job 11:7-8,

Referred to as the pit - Job 17:13, Ps.30:3, Prov.1:12, Isa.14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17

Has Chambers - Prov.7:27

Has Gates/Bars - Job 17:16, Isa.38:10, Mt.16:18

A place of torment in fire – Lk.16:23-24

Is a literal entity representing the same location – Rev.6:8, 20:14


Sheol (sheh-ole') The underworld (place to which the spirits of people descend at death)

Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.

Hades (hah'-dace) The unseen world:

hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.

Psalm 115:17
17It is not the dead who praise the LORD, nor any who descend into silence.

I would think if you are in heaven you would praise the Lord but this verse says the dead do not praise the Lord.

"And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it."

"And I heard every creature in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying'
To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever!”

"Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If the spirits of the unrighteous dead were sleeping, there would be no need to mention them as not being worthy to open the scroll. The reference to those "under the earth," in the three scriptures above, is in reference to those in Sheol/Hades. Notice that in one of the scriptures it is said that they will sing praises to God along with those in heaven and on the earth. Then in the last scripture, all those in heaven, on earth and under the earth will bow their knee to Jesus and confess that He is Lord. Kind of hard to do if the dead know nothing at all.

It is not a conscience spirit that returns to heaven but the breath of life that God gave as when God created Adam he used the dust of the ground then breathed into man the breath of life then man became a living soul. We are told by the Bible the dead know nothing meaning they have no memory or aware of anything.

"And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed."

Taking into consideration the above scripture, it demonstrates that these under the altar are the spirits/souls of those who were killed on the earth and they are having a conversation with the Lord. Once again, kind of hard to have a conversation with the Lord if you are asleep and know nothing.

Jesus referred to death as a sleep and unless you dream you are unaware of what is going on around you until you wake up the next morning and life that you are aware of picks up.

Everywhere that the word sleep is used regarding the dead, is referring to the body only. At the time of death, the spirit departs from the body and goes to its respective place.

"But Jesus took her by the hand and called out, “Child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she got up."

"While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

From your posts, I can see that you have been adopting the teachings of annihilationists and those who believe in soul-sleep. If you are going to respond to this, I would appreciate it if you address what I have written and not jump to other scriptures.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ecclesiastes 9:5
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”

Ecclesiastes 12:7
before dust returns to the earth as it was before and the life-breath returns to God who gave it.

Psalm 115:17
17It is not the dead who praise the LORD, nor any who descend into silence.

I would think if you are in heaven you would praise the Lord but this verse says the dead do not praise the Lord.

It is not a conscience spirit that returns to heaven but the breath of life that God gave as when God created Adam he used the dust of the ground then breathed into man the breath of life then man became a living soul.

We are told by the Bible the dead know nothing meaning they have no memory or aware of anything.

Jesus referred to death as a sleep and unless you dream you are unaware of what is going on around you until you wake up the next morning and life that you are aware of picks up.

Since you didn't respond to anything that I presented in post #501, I would appreciate it if you would give me answer to the word "apoleia" translated as "destruction," and specifically where the definition states that it does not imply annihilation. This is what I meant when I said about you not giving an answer to what I've presented, but instead you just jump to other scriptures.

 

[JesusLives]

Since you didn't respond to anything that I presented in post #501, I would appreciate it if you would give me answer to the word "apoleia" translated as "destruction," and specifically where the definition states that it does not imply annihilation. This is what I meant when I said about you not giving an answer to what I've presented, but instead you just jump to other scriptures.

I am giving from Bible why I believe the way I do.

 

[garee]

Yes, you are correct, the body does return. And the spirit of the believer returns to God. However, the spirit of the unbeliever goes down into Hades, just as in the example of the rich man of Lazarus fame. To be clear, at the time of death none of the spirits of the wicked goes to be in the presence of God. Read "the rich man and Lazarus" in Luke 16:19-31. And read it in its plain literal sense, not a mystical spiritual one.

Hi thanks for the reply. I will try and explain..

To believe that right in the middle of a series of 5 parables God sneaks in a literal interpretation with no spiritual understanding makes me wonder?

It simply does not make sense to the whole series of parables ending up with those who have no faith to believe. Even after the Son of man came back from the dead . and warned the brothers.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.Luke 18:2931

Hell is defined in the parables, comparing the sign in Jonas to the wonder or fulfillment in Christ. The last sign as a wonder (source of faith). Its the evil generation seeks after the things seen...having no faith to believe God not seen. Three days and three nights of a living suffering. No dead sacrifices. What we need is a new spirit and new body. The corrupted returns to its source before it was corrupted ,

Before God corrupted it.... as the promised wage of sin, . . . . death (no power) to rise to new life.

Moses and the prophets, the two witnesses, or all things written in the law and prophets is representing sola scriptura. . . the Christian's unseen defense .

The gospel is hid in the conclusion of that parable (let them hear them "God's Word". ) representing the series of parables.

 

[garee]

You quote a verse that say it is not the dead that praise the lord

Yes people in hell are non believer they are not praise the lord.

Not praise the lord do not mean annihilate.

My friend exist, talk to me every day, but he not praise the lord, because he is not christian.

Well if a person does not have a new born again spirit to praise why would we think their bodies of death could do anything other than carry out it goal of death, by returning the clay of the field having no power to rise to new life.?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I am giving from Bible why I believe the way I do.

But you're not responding to the proofs of scripture that I am presenting regarding these issues. My concern is to show your error regarding them so that you can look up these scriptures and be turned to the truth. This belief and teaching of annihilationism and soul-sleep are not the truth, nor does the word of God teach them. But as you said, you are free to believe as you do.

 

[tourist]

I don't need to explain it away because it stems from your lack of understanding what the state of death is according to scripture. You're thinking of death as extinction or annihilation, which it is not. I have already posted this but here it is again: Death is a state of conscious existence in separation from God which is directly related to an individuals standing with God. Those who die unreconciled to God, die in their sins, death being a conscious state of eternal existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. This is the second death. And speaking of the second death, if according to your claim that death means nonexistence then how could the wicked who have already died experience a second death? It demonstrates that their spirits still exist after the first death, with the second death being final separation from God in the lake of fire, which is also a state of on-going existence.

Life = never ending existence in the joy of the Lord and the kingdom of God

Death = never ending existence in separation from God in the lake of fire.

I pray that no one has a second death and goes to the lake of fire separated from God for all eternity.

 

[tourist]

Not every verse in the Bible is come from God mouth, so we have to be careful to make conclusion.

Not because a statement or verse in the Bible, automatically the word of God.

This is absolutely correct. Everything in the bible is truthfully stated but not everything in the bible is a statement of truth. This is easily noted in the book of Ecclesiastes. Most of that book was written with the perception of a morally depraved depressed human mind. It would be wise to take what is said in that book with a grain of salt or even disregarding portions of it. There are also many verses that are obviously in harmony with God but many verses are obviously something that you would want to emulate. Discernment is required.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I pray that no one has a second death and goes to the lake of fire separated from God for all eternity.

Neither does God want anyone to perish, which is why He sent His Son. Unfortunately, many have not, do not and will not have faith in Son in order to be saved.

 

[tourist]

But you're not responding to the proofs of scripture that I am presenting regarding these issues. My concern is to show your error regarding them so that you can look up these scriptures and be turned to the truth. This belief and teaching of annihilationism and soul-sleep are not the truth, nor does the word of God teach them. But as you said, you are free to believe as you do.

It seems to me that if the dead are sleeping but have their conscious spirit alive than the body, or whatever is left of it is no longer sleeping but dead. Yet, the bible says that the dead are asleep.

I don't see how it is possible to maintain consciousness when one is asleep. I don't believe that the bible states categorically, clear, and concise that once you are dead your consciousness is alive and active without a resurrected body which will come later.

The bible says that once you die you first go to sleep. If you are sleeping you are not conscious of your surroundings It makes no sense that your dead body is sleeping because you are no longer in it and this dead body is not the same body as your new resurrected one. What happens to those that are cremated or otherwise vaporized? What is sleeping, the existing atoms, if any? I suppose that in these cases they will be in limbo.

It is my belief, based on common sense and spiritual understanding, that what is sleeping when you die is your consciousness.

 

[tourist]

Neither does God want anyone to perish, which is why He sent His Son. Unfortunately, many have not, do not and will not have faith in Son in order to be saved.

Yet, it does state in the bible that it is God's will and desire that none shall perish but have everlasting life. I believe that God is fully capable of accomplishing His will and desire, otherwise He would not be God, but ordinary like us. If God cannot accomplish His will and desire then who can? Apart from God and His grace and blessing, I certainly can't, at least not in a way that is pleasing and acceptable to Him in accordance to His will and desire for my life.

 

[Ahwatukee]

It seems to me that if the dead are sleeping but have their conscious spirit alive than the body, or whatever is left of it is no longer sleeping but dead. Yet, the bible says that the dead are asleep.

I don't see how it is possible to maintain consciousness when one is asleep. I don't believe that the bible states categorically, clear, and concise that once you are dead your consciousness is alive and active without a resurrected body which will come later.

The reason that the body is referred to as "sleeping" is because at some point the bodies of both the righteous and the unrighteous are going to stand back up again, which is what is meant by the word anastasis translated as resurrection.

"and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

"And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Believers who have died from the on-set of the church up to the occurrence of the resurrection, will stand back up again in the same bodies that they died in, albeit immortal and glorified, with their spirits being reunited with those resurrected bodies.

The bible says that once you die you first go to sleep. If you are sleeping you are not conscious of your surroundings It makes no sense that your dead body is sleeping because you are no longer in it and this dead body is not the same body as your new resurrected one. What happens to those that are cremated or otherwise vaporized? What is sleeping, the existing atoms, if any? I suppose that in these cases they will be in limbo.

Regardless of what happens to a believers body, whether drowned, burned, or buried, length of time, etc., God will reanimate that body and all at the same time in a nano second. All believers who are still alive at the time of the resurrection, will simply be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up.

It is my belief, based on common sense and spiritual understanding, that what is sleeping when you die is your consciousness.

Well, after the bodies of the rich man and Lazarus died, they being in Hades were conscious and had all of their faculties. As example, the rich man asked father Abraham to send Lazarus back up on the earth to his father's house in order to warn his five brothers so that they would not come to that same place of torment. It demonstrates that the rich man was aware of his life on the earth, remembering his brothers.

It is the body with its organs and mind that is sleeping. Both will be awakened (reanimated) at different times in the future.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yet, it does state in the bible that it is God's will and desire that none shall perish but have everlasting life. I believe that God is fully capable of accomplishing His will and desire, otherwise He would not be God, but ordinary like us. If God cannot accomplish His will and desire then who can? Apart from God and His grace and blessing, I certainly can't, at least not in a way that is pleasing and acceptable to Him in accordance to His will and desire for my life.

The consequences for sin, which is separation from God in the lake of fire, as been set. God also provided a way for human beings to escape those consequences through faith in His Son. However, God also gave mankind free will and will not force anyone into His kingdom. Regarding this Jesus says: "I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me." Notice that Jesus is not kicking the door in to pull us through, but is standing at and waiting for the unbeliever to open the door, which is us having faith.

Therefore, God is not willing that any should perish, but having faith in His Son is required to receive salvation.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.” - John 3:36

 

[Jackson123]

Well if a person does not have a new born again spirit to praise why would we think their bodies of death could do anything other than carry out it goal of death, by returning the clay of the field having no power to rise to new life.?

They not annihilate, they are exist in hell forever