Election teaches that salvation comes from the Lord.

[Magenta]

John 6:65 is the main verse on that panel... which is why I quoted it.

@rogerg

Jesus’ words in John 6:65

 

[rogerg]

Sorry, I was at John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no
man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Yeah, my fault - I wasn't keeping up.
The coming to Jesus is given to us as a gift from God. In being born-again with/by the Holy Spirit,
we come to Jesus and truly believe in Him. Our belief in Him, is how we come to Him, until then, not.

 

[Magenta]

Yeah, my fault - I wasn't keeping up.
The coming to Jesus is given to us as a gift from God. In being born-again with/by the Holy Spirit,
we come to Jesus and truly believe in Him. Our belief in Him, is how we come to Him, until then, not.

We come by belief, given by God as a gift. Is belief a gift in your view, then?

When does circumcision of the heart happen? Many seem to overlook that...

 

[rogerg]

We come by belief, given by God as a gift. Is belief a gift in your view, then?

When does circumcision of the heart happen? Many seem to overlook that...

Yes, I believe that all of the attributes (so to speak) of salvation, to include those, are given by God as a gift and accompanies spiritual rebirth when indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Genez]

They are different.

KJV

The KJV translates Strong's G1325 in the following manner: give (365x), grant (10x), put (5x), show (4x), deliver (2x), make (2x), miscellaneous (25x).

[Jhn 6:65 KJV] 65 And[G2532] he said,[G3004] Therefore[G1223][G5124] said I[G2046] unto you,[G5213] that[G3754] no man[G3762] can[G1410] come[G2064] unto[G4314] me,[G3165] except[G3362] it were[G5600] given[G1325] unto him[G846] of[G1537] my[G3450] Father.[G3962]

ESV

[Jhn 6:65 ESV] 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

OK... We know that we have been saved by 'grace.'

God grants us by GIVING the power of grace.
That grace suppressed the sin nature so our soul was made free from the oppressive flesh as to not automatically reject the Spirit.

In contrast... The works crowd were proud (God does not give grace to the proud) and granted no grace to be saved.
But, rather. Were seeking their own means to earn their salvation.

Here is an example that shows how God's grace is "given power" to make us enabled where we would normally be helpless without Grace being "given."

​

And He has said to me: “My grace is sufficient for you. For My power is perfected in weakness”. ​

Therefore most-gladly I will rather boast in my weaknesses in order that the power of Christ ​

may dwell upon me." 2 Cor 12:9​

Those seeking what works to do to be saved God will not grant/give the grace needed to be given to Christ.

But he gives greater grace. Therefore he says: God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble." ​

James 4:6​

As you cited....

Jhn 6:65 ESV] 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

What's granted by the Father is grace!

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, ​

it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9​

​

grace and peace....

 

[Cameron143]

OK... We know that we have been saved by 'grace.'

God grants us by GIVING the power of grace.
That grace suppressed the sin nature so our soul was made free from the oppressive flesh as to not automatically reject the Spirit.

In contrast... The works crowd were proud (God does not give grace to the proud) and granted no grace to be saved.
But, rather. Were seeking their own means to earn their salvation.

Here is an example that shows how God's grace is "given power" to make us enabled where we would normally be helpless without Grace being "given."

​

And He has said to me: “My grace is sufficient for you. For My power is perfected in weakness”. ​

Therefore most-gladly I will rather boast in my weaknesses in order that the power of Christ ​

may dwell upon me." 2 Cor 12:9​

Those seeking what works to do to be saved God will not grant/give the grace needed to be given to Christ.

But he gives greater grace. Therefore he says: God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble." ​

James 4:6​

As you cited....

Jhn 6:65 ESV] 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

What's granted by the Father is grace!

​

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, ​

it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9​

​

grace and peace....

Are you saying that a person is given grace or has it withheld based on one's attitude?

 

[Genez]

Are you saying that a person is given grace or has it withheld based on one's attitude?

The men in Romans 1:18-23 were for a season recipients of grace for God. They had to be to have made Himself known to them.
At one point they became arrogant and then God's grace was no longer given..

​

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, ​

who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because ​

God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.​

​

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools ​

and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.​

​

Those type of males became the gateway for homosexuality's expansion into cultures that enter into moral degeneracy.


........

 

[Cameron143]

The men in Romans 1:18-23 were for a season recipients of grace for God. They had to be to have made Himself known to them.
At one point they became arrogant and then God's grace was no longer given..

​

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, ​

who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because ​

God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.​

​

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools ​

and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.​

​

Those type of males became the gateway for homosexuality's expansion into cultures that enter into moral degeneracy.

God is gracious to all. That wasn't the question. The question was...is God's grace dependent on men's response? God's response to man's reception of His grace may vary, but grace by definition is unconditional.

 

[Genez]

God is gracious to all. That wasn't the question. The question was...is God's grace dependent on men's response? God's response to man's reception of His grace may vary, but grace by definition is unconditional.

I am not really sure what you are after... Unconditional on its initial approach to all men.

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all men. ​

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to ​

live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, " Titus 2:11-12​

​

But?

To gain "greater grace" it does depend upon the attitude of the one who has been given and accepts grace.
After all... it says God makes war (resists) the proud.

​

But he gives greater grace. Therefore he says: God resists the proud ​

but gives grace to the humble." James 4:6​

Grace is the transformational power of God that morphs us into becoming more and more the living Word of God if we grow in grace and knowledge.

 

[Cameron143]

I am not really sure what you are after... Unconditional on its initial approach to all men.

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all men. ​

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to ​

live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, " Titus 2:11-12​

​

But?

To gain "greater grace" it does depend upon the attitude of the one who has been given and accepts grace.
After all... it says God makes war (resists) the proud.

​

But he gives greater grace. Therefore he says: God resists the proud ​

but gives grace to the humble." James 4:6​

Grace is the transformational power of God that morphs us into becoming more and more the living Word of God if we grow in grace and knowledge.

Grace is also the unmerited favor of God. By making it conditional, how then is it unearned?

 

[Genez]

Grace is also the unmerited favor of God. By making it conditional, how then is it unearned?

Unmerited favor...
I have often wondered. Who thought that one up?
Its commonly used that way, but no where I have found is grace said to be unmerited favor.
Its actually power God gives the helpless so we can be made to warrant his favor.

Paul made a clear declaration concerning grace.
Paul said grace is power from God to enable us when we are helpless to do what is needed, or to become what God desires of us.
Its also power that God gives to resist the devil.... (Paul's thorn)

And He has said to me: “My grace is sufficient for you. For My power is perfected in weakness”. ​

Therefore most-gladly I will rather boast in my weaknesses in order that the power of Christ ​

may dwell upon me." 2 Cor 12:9​

Just like tithing is unquestioned in many churches? 'Unmerited favor' sounds so good to hear for a young believer.
And, unless challenged? It just sticks.

And He has said to me: “My grace is sufficient for you. For My power is perfected in weakness”. ​

Therefore most-gladly I will rather boast in my weaknesses in order that the power of Christ ​

may dwell upon me." 2 Cor 12:9​

As Paul said..

God's grace is the power God gives to those whom in their own strength can not be doing what is right.
By grace we become empowered and enabled in doing what's right in God's eyes by means of grace and sound doctrine combined.

Ironically... Grace is to having God's enabling power to make us function in a manner that it does warrant His favor!

He must cause us to be made able by his power to be what He approves of!

We do so by growing and abiding in sound doctrine as to have the Spirit unhindered in being one with us.

​

But, continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus, the Messiah. ​

Glory belongs to him both now and on that eternal day! Amen. 2 Peter 3:18​

False doctrine only gets a believer to do what he thinks is right in the power of the energy of his flesh. Religious men can not please God for that reason.

For example: Tithing is for the religious. No grace involved = law.
In contrast. Paul said we should give as each one has determined in his heart to give. 2 Corinthians 9:7


grace and peace ....................

 

[Cameron143]

Unmerited favor...
I have often wondered. Who thought that one up?
Its commonly used that way, but no where I have found is grace said to be unmerited favor.
Its actually power God gives the helpless so we can be made to warrant his favor.

Paul made a clear declaration concerning grace.
Paul said grace is power from God to enable us when we are helpless to do what is needed, or to become what God desires of us.
Its also power that God gives to resist the devil.... (Paul's thorn)

And He has said to me: “My grace is sufficient for you. For My power is perfected in weakness”. ​

Therefore most-gladly I will rather boast in my weaknesses in order that the power of Christ ​

may dwell upon me." 2 Cor 12:9​

Just like tithing is unquestioned in many churches? 'Unmerited favor' sounds so good to hear for a young believer.
And, unless challenged? It just sticks.

And He has said to me: “My grace is sufficient for you. For My power is perfected in weakness”. ​

Therefore most-gladly I will rather boast in my weaknesses in order that the power of Christ ​

may dwell upon me." 2 Cor 12:9​

As Paul said..

God's grace is the power God gives to those whom in their own strength can not be doing what is right.
By grace we become empowered and enabled in doing what's right in God's eyes by means of grace and sound doctrine combined.

Ironically... Grace is to having God's enabling power to make us function in a manner that it does warrant His favor!

He must cause us to be made able by his power to be what He approves of!

We do so by growing and abiding in sound doctrine as to have the Spirit unhindered in being one with us.

​

But, continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus, the Messiah. ​

Glory belongs to him both now and on that eternal day! Amen. 2 Peter 3:18​

False doctrine only gets a believer to do what he thinks is right in the power of the energy of his flesh. Religious men can not please God for that reason.

For example: Tithing is for the religious. No grace involved = law.
In contrast. Paul said we should give as each one has determined in his heart to give. 2 Corinthians 9:7


grace and peace ....................

So initially grace is sovereignly applied, but afterwards conditioned on man's response?

 

[selahsays]

selahsays — If you have been drawn to God, you have been called. In other words, all Christians are of the Elect.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

- Romans 8:28

 

[Burn1986]

Ephesians 1:3-13.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.


Paul makes it pretty clear in verse 4 that God chose. even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,

He predestined His chosen, verse 5. he predestined us for adoption

He gave in verse 6. to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

He forgave verse 7. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses,

He lavished grace verses 7-8. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight

He made His will known in verse 9. making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ

He purposed verse 9. according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ

He included verse 13. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

He marked us and sealed us with the Holy Spirit. verse 13. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,


And what is of the utmost important is, that these are all done in Christ. Which is why we must be regenerated first and placed in Christ by God before we can believe or receive any of this.

You make good points but you started it off by saying “Election teaches…” So your whole premise is an argument for “election”. Why is it important to say Salvation is of God? Where else would salvation come from?

 

[Genez]

So initially grace is sovereignly applied, but afterwards conditioned on man's response?

What indoctrination had you been inculcated with?
Are you a TULIP mind?

This verse should tell you that once saved we have a choice to continue in grace.
For the following is a gentle command....

But, continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus, the Messiah.
Glory belongs to him both now and on that eternal day! Amen. 2 Peter 3:18​

If we had no choice?
We would not be told to continue..

 

[fredoheaven]

1 Thessalonian 1:

2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

For consideration of the election of God, election is for the saved to serve, he works his faith, labors in love, and is being patient in the coming of the Lord

 

[Cameron143]

What indoctrination had you been inculcated with?
Are you a TULIP mind?

This verse should tell you that once saved we have a choice to continue in grace.
For the following is a gentle command....

But, continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus, the Messiah. ​

Glory belongs to him both now and on that eternal day! Amen. 2 Peter 3:18​

If we had no choice?
We would not be told to continue..

Continue in the grace and is simply to access the means of grace available to us. Grace still remains sovereignly in God's control.

 

[Genez]

Continue in the grace and is simply to access the means of grace available to us. Grace still remains sovereignly in God's control.

I wish I could figure out why you asked that question.....

Yes.... God's grace is always there.
But, gaining access to it is conditional.

Here's one example of what I speak..

​

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins ​

and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9​

He will forgive us every single time we acknowledge our sins.
In that way, grace is always there, but conditional.
For we must not deny we have sinned when we have sinned...

Sin cuts us off from grace...
............

 

[Foghorn]

I say we have a choice. The scripture says we have a choice.
God said we have a choice.

The gift is for all. We decide if accept the gift or not

That’s what you believe. Thanks for your opinion 😉

 

[Foghorn]

You make good points but you started it off by saying “Election teaches…” So your whole premise is an argument for “election”. Why is it important to say Salvation is of God? Where else would salvation come from?

Thanks for your opinion. 🙂