Election and predestination.

[Aerials1978]

FreeGrace2 said:
So, you are just going to sit there and actually DENY what the verse says plainly? That "God is pleased...to save those who believe".

You can deny reality. But you cannot take away what the verse says.

And even though I keep asking, you haven't yet produced a verse that tells us that God chooses who will believe. But you sure believe that.

Seeing what I posted above, I believe you are.


Well, maybe there is the problem. 1 Cor 1:21 isn't even about "universal salvation". You really missed the point of mine and what the verse clearly says. It says "God is pleased to save those who believe".


Actually I looked at all the verses and the "consistent narrative" was about predestination, NOT about election. They are different.


I think you meant "what Peter is stating, not "starting".

This passage is about the fact that believers have EVERYTHING they need for a godly life, in v.3. The rest of the verses are about what to do to have an "rich welcome" into the kingdom, from v.11, which you forgot to include in your quote. That verse is the very point of the previous verses. Here it is: and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

iow, those who fulfill v.4-10 will receive a "rich welcome", as opposed to simply "a welcome". It's all about eternal reward,which I'm not sure Calvinists believe in.

As to the phrase "confirm your calling and election", it doesn't mean to "prove it" but having the assurance of it.

Anyway, this passage does not support the reformed claim that election is to salvation.

Because v.4-10 is about lifestyle, confirming one's calling and election would clearly link to service.

You asked for a verse and I gave an entire passage. Peter is talking about a lifestyle sure but in conjunction with being called. Again I will reiterate the consistency of scripture. Whether you or I agree on it is irrelevant. It’s a deeply dividing issue, and one that should not been taken lightly or try to be understood on our own precepts. If I’m wrong, let God correct me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
So, you are just going to sit there and actually DENY what the verse says plainly? That "God is pleased...to save those who believe".

You can deny reality. But you cannot take away what the verse says.

And even though I keep asking, you haven't yet produced a verse that tells us that God chooses who will believe. But you sure believe that.

You asked for a verse and I gave an entire passage.

It's quite easy to quote an entire passage. It's not so easy to quote a verse that actually says what you claim. And you haven't done that yet.

Peter is talking about a lifestyle sure but in conjunction with being called. Again I will reiterate the consistency of scripture. Whether you or I agree on it is irrelevant.

Doesn't matter what you think is irrelevant. You haven't quoted any verse that supports your claim. That IS relevant.

It’s a deeply dividing issue, and one that should not been taken lightly or try to be understood on our own precepts. If I’m wrong, let God correct me.

OK, sure. Of course. Why would you possibly think I am able to "correct" you?

All I can do is point out facts. What Scripture says, and your errors. I know you don't like that, as most don't. But truth is truth, and you haven't quoted any verse yet that says what you say.

 

[Aerials1978]

FreeGrace2 said:
So, you are just going to sit there and actually DENY what the verse says plainly? That "God is pleased...to save those who believe".

You can deny reality. But you cannot take away what the verse says.

And even though I keep asking, you haven't yet produced a verse that tells us that God chooses who will believe. But you sure believe that.

It's quite easy to quote an entire passage. It's not so easy to quote a verse that actually says what you claim. And you haven't done that yet.


Doesn't matter what you think is irrelevant. You haven't quoted any verse that supports your claim. That IS relevant.


OK, sure. Of course. Why would you possibly think I am able to "correct" you?

All I can do is point out facts. What Scripture says, and your errors. I know you don't like that, as most don't. But truth is truth, and you haven't quoted any verse yet that says what you say.

I have given
you plenty of verses, but you conveniently deflect because it doesn’t gel with your view. Lets take an example of God sovereignty from Genesis in a quick summary:

 

[Aerials1978]

FreeGrace2 said:
So, you are just going to sit there and actually DENY what the verse says plainly? That "God is pleased...to save those who believe".

You can deny reality. But you cannot take away what the verse says.

And even though I keep asking, you haven't yet produced a verse that tells us that God chooses who will believe. But you sure believe that.

It's quite easy to quote an entire passage. It's not so easy to quote a verse that actually says what you claim. And you haven't done that yet.


Doesn't matter what you think is irrelevant. You haven't quoted any verse that supports your claim. That IS relevant.


OK, sure. Of course. Why would you possibly think I am able to "correct" you?

All I can do is point out facts. What Scripture says, and your errors. I know you don't like that, as most don't. But truth is truth, and you haven't quoted any verse yet that says what you say.

Posting on this site is terrible. Anyways, here is my whole post:

I have given you plenty of verses, but you conveniently deflect because it doesn’t gel with your view. Lets take an example of God sovereignty from Exodus chapter 9 brining with verse 13:

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, ‘This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me,or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth.
But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go.

So this would show that God made Pharaoh who he was. My questions would be due Pharaoh have a choice?

 

[Beckie]

Has your adoption taken place? Has your body been redeemed? Are you now dwelling in an immortal righteous body?

yes i am adopted by the Father . Nope and nope

 

[Beckie]

Posting on this site is terrible. Anyways, here is my whole post:

I have given you plenty of verses, but you conveniently deflect because it doesn’t gel with your view. Lets take an example of God sovereignty from Exodus chapter 9 brining with verse 13:

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, ‘This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me,or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth.
But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go.

So this would show that God made Pharaoh who he was. My questions would be due Pharaoh have a choice?

Fact that God is sovereign does not fit with salvation being mans choice. Just as in the Garden mans wants autonomy .

 

[John146]

yes i am adopted by the Father . Nope and nope

Then you're waiting for the adoption, the redemption of the body.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have given
you plenty of verses, but you conveniently deflect because it doesn’t gel with your view.

Actually, my point is that those verses don't "gel" with YOUR own view.

Lets take an example of God sovereignty from Genesis in a quick summary:

God's sovereignty wasn't the discussion. Are you just trying to change the subject?

The issue is simple: find just one verse that very clearly shows that election is to salvation.

Then you will have proved your claim.

My claim is that election is ALWAYS to service, and I have several pages of verses that plainly show that. And I've shared a number of them already.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Posting on this site is terrible. Anyways, here is my whole post:

I have given you plenty of verses, but you conveniently deflect because it doesn’t gel with your view. Lets take an example of God sovereignty from Exodus chapter 9 brining with verse 13:

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, ‘This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me,or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth.
But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go.

So this would show that God made Pharaoh who he was.

Oh, not at all. In the first 5 plagues, the Bible itself says that Pharoah "hardened his own heart". iow, Pharaoh did it to himself.

And the verse that you bolded above shows that God could have "wiped" him "off the earth". But He didn't. He actually kept him alive in order to continue to harden his own heart. So when the Bible says that "God hardened his heart" it means God kept him alive so that Pharaoh could continue to harden his own heart.

My questions would be due Pharaoh have a choice?

Absolutely! The actual text shows that he could have. It was Pharoah who REFUSED to let the Jews God, and it was God who told Moses to tell Pharoah to let them go.

Are you actually suggesting that God was making Pharoah go against what God told Moses to tell Pharoah to do???

 

[FreeGrace2]

Fact that God is sovereign does not fit with salvation being mans choice.

Calvinists simply misunderstand the issue.

Salvation is a gift offered. Titus 2:11 A gift can be received or rejected. That is the choice man faces when the gospel is presented.

Just as in the Garden mans wants autonomy .

Actually, the Garden shows that Adam wanted the woman. He ate the fuit knowing full well what the consequences would be, but he chose the woman over the consequences. It was the woman who was deceived and thought she would get smarter by eating the fruit.

 

[Blade]

Well it does make one wonder for sure and I am not here to tell anyone what GODs word really says though my own eyes Other then Jesus is the only way to the Father.

To know no believer will worship the beast whos names were written in the lambs book from the foundation of the world. Yeah don't touch the ISM there are so many and they get toss at you (no offense) so much now days. A prayer I had not long ago where I asked for something and He answered it with in 5 mins. Now what always gets me is I had stopped praying in the middle saying "you already knew what I was going to ask and already set into motion the answer". I never prayed that way. That thought just crossed my mind at that moment. Yet the answer.. for it to be answered real people with free choices had to come into play and would have taken hours and days. Yet it was answered in 5 min. I cried when it happened. It was so shocking.. never in my life had this happen.

I know each person had a choice...yet it was answered exactly how I asked. See it was not for me but I wanted to help my wifes faith Its amazing what happens when its for others. I still to this moment try to rap my head around all that. Its in moments like that haha you start to really believe.. hmm maybe He can do anything Trying to be funny.

Sorry if I never touched the sub

 

[Aerials1978]

Oh, not at all. In the first 5 plagues, the Bible itself says that Pharoah "hardened his own heart". iow, Pharaoh did it to himself.

And the verse that you bolded above shows that God could have "wiped" him "off the earth". But He didn't. He actually kept him alive in order to continue to harden his own heart. So when the Bible says that "God hardened his heart" it means God kept him alive so that Pharaoh could continue to harden his own heart.


Absolutely! The actual text shows that he could have. It was Pharoah who REFUSED to let the Jews God, and it was God who told Moses to tell Pharoah to let them go.

Are you actually suggesting that God was making Pharoah go against what God told Moses to tell Pharoah to do???

I think you have a very remedial understanding of scripture. Try reading it again for what it is.

 

[Aerials1978]

Actually, my point is that those verses don't "gel" with YOUR own view.


God's sovereignty wasn't the discussion. Are you just trying to change the subject?

The issue is simple: find just one verse that very clearly shows that election is to salvation.

Then you will have proved your claim.

My claim is that election is ALWAYS to service, and I have several pages of verses that plainly show that. And I've shared a number of them already.

Interesting, I never heard anyone define election as really meaning service. It’s quite obvious you don’t comprehend specific things.

 

[Gideon300]

The key to understanding this verse is that there will be NO TRIP to heaven afterward, or the Bible would have said it.

The resurrection and being caught up occurs "when He comes" which is at the Second Advent. And all believers will STAY on earth with the King of kings to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Has your adoption taken place? Has your body been redeemed? Are you now dwelling in an immortal righteous body?

What a pointless argument. What does it matter? I'm a child of God right now. That's what matters.

 

[Gideon300]

I think you have a very remedial understanding of scripture. Try reading it again for what it is.

"Remedial", definition: "Giving or intended as a remedy or cure."

 

[Aerials1978]

"Remedial", definition: "Giving or intended as a remedy or cure."

It also means: provided or intended for students who are experiencing learning difficulties.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think you have a very remedial understanding of scripture. Try reading it again for what it is.

I gave you facts. It appears rather obvious that you are oblivious to the account of Pharoah.

I recommend that you take your own advice.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Interesting, I never heard anyone define election as really meaning service. It’s quite obvious you don’t comprehend specific things.

OK, very simple request. If there is a verse that specifically links election to salvation, without having to take a huge leap, please share.

In EVERY verse that DOES mention the purpose of election, is about service. I have several pages of verses that show this.

So, just 1 verse will justify election being to salvation.

Then we'll see how much YOU comprehend.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Aerials1978 said:
I think you have a very remedial understanding of scripture. Try reading it again for what it is.

"Remedial", definition: "Giving or intended as a remedy or cure."

Thanks for noting that is exactly what I am doing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It also means: provided or intended for students who are experiencing learning difficulties.

Yes, and that too.