Does Oneness theology (Modalism) teach a "sock puppet" view of God's nature?
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I've studied a lot of theology, including German theologians going back centuries. It's just basic theology. But this guy, I've never heard of him. Probably because he is a heretic.
There was no Roman Catholic Church when the first councils were happening, right back to the first one in Jerusalem in Acts 15. They were just Christians, or followers of the way.
By the way, I noticed you couldn't answer a single question I asked you. Therefore I must conclude you didn't have any answers, and you are probably a cultist, like Oneness Pentecostal or something similar. I want Bible quotes in context, not some heretical scholar. I don't watch videos. They are too boring for me! Even the ones I agree with!
There was no Roman Catholic Church when the first councils were happening, right back to the first one in Jerusalem in Acts 15. They were just Christians, or followers of the way.
By the way, I noticed you couldn't answer a single question I asked you. Therefore I must conclude you didn't have any answers, and you are probably a cultist, like Oneness Pentecostal or something similar. I want Bible quotes in context, not some heretical scholar. I don't watch videos. They are too boring for me! Even the ones I agree with!
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You cannot maintain a coherent reading of Scripture with your theology, because you deny the distinct Personhood of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This renders any interpersonal activity between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit incoherent. Interpersonal activity is demonstrated throughout the NT.
Additionally, Jesus apparently did not exist as a distinct Person whatsoever.
Concerning the Nicene creed, the issue at this council was Arianism, and not the Trinity. Clearer statements concerning the Trinity were delineated later. However, Scripture is Scripture, and the Scripture teaches:
1. There is one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is God.
5. These three are distinct persons, each co-eternal and co-essential (sharing the same essence).
The distinctness of the Personhood, as well as the eternality of Jesus, are the points which Oneness people reject.
By the way, I have yet to hear a single Oneness believer who seems to have a high degree of intellect. If you can recommend one, I'd be glad to listen to one. Sabin and Perkins are definitely not in this category. In the USA, most Oneness Pentecostals come from backwards southern states and it shows.
Additionally, Jesus apparently did not exist as a distinct Person whatsoever.
Concerning the Nicene creed, the issue at this council was Arianism, and not the Trinity. Clearer statements concerning the Trinity were delineated later. However, Scripture is Scripture, and the Scripture teaches:
1. There is one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is God.
5. These three are distinct persons, each co-eternal and co-essential (sharing the same essence).
The distinctness of the Personhood, as well as the eternality of Jesus, are the points which Oneness people reject.
By the way, I have yet to hear a single Oneness believer who seems to have a high degree of intellect. If you can recommend one, I'd be glad to listen to one. Sabin and Perkins are definitely not in this category. In the USA, most Oneness Pentecostals come from backwards southern states and it shows.
Is the distinction of the Father and Son during the Incarnation one of nature or Person?
If it is only of nature, then there is no interpersonal activity between "them" (and I can't even use the word "them" because it applies to two distinct persons), and the language that refers to interpersonal activity is rendered nonsense.
There must be a person who is Jesus, and another person who is the Father, or the New Testament is rendered nonsensical because of interpersonal activity. Same with the Holy Spirit.
If it is only of nature, then there is no interpersonal activity between "them" (and I can't even use the word "them" because it applies to two distinct persons), and the language that refers to interpersonal activity is rendered nonsense.
There must be a person who is Jesus, and another person who is the Father, or the New Testament is rendered nonsensical because of interpersonal activity. Same with the Holy Spirit.
Concerning their distinction, clearly it will be point to nature between Christ humanity and His divinity(Father), as the Son does not know his second coming but only the Father, and He rather followed the will of the Father than His human will.
In regard to distinction, you cannot compare God to the distinction of human aspect, the humanity designed by God it needs a distinction between persons is physically apparent. But then the distinction is between the humanity of Christ and His Divinity(Father), it was apparent when Jesus was still in His humanity on earth(during His lifetime on earth).
Regarding the Holy Spirit, there is only one Spirit of God, so there is only one Person(as Deity) of the Spirit, at the same time the Spirit of the Son and of the Father that is the Holy Spirit. To reiterate again, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God in action.
In regard to distinction, you cannot compare God to the distinction of human aspect, the humanity designed by God it needs a distinction between persons is physically apparent. But then the distinction is between the humanity of Christ and His Divinity(Father), it was apparent when Jesus was still in His humanity on earth(during His lifetime on earth).
Regarding the Holy Spirit, there is only one Spirit of God, so there is only one Person(as Deity) of the Spirit, at the same time the Spirit of the Son and of the Father that is the Holy Spirit. To reiterate again, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God in action.
Regarding the Holy Spirit, there is only one Spirit of God, so there is only one Person(as Deity) of the Spirit, at the same time the Spirit of the Son and of the Father that is the Holy Spirit. To reiterate again, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God in action, it is now the Spirit of Christ in action…(see John 14: 18, Revelation 2:7, Acts 9:4-5 and 2 Corinthians 3:17)
The Holy Spirit is one of the three Persons of the Triune God.
His distinct Personhood is shown by the fact that Jesus called him "another Comforter" or helper (Parakletos) that Jesus would send (again, this word conveys personal interaction). This Person is not Jesus, who is a Comforter as well. See 1 John
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (ESV Strong's)
The word "Comforter" and "advocate" are the same in Greek (parakletos).
In one sense, you could call the Holy Spirit the "Spirit of Christ" or "Spirit of the Father" because there is only one God, and the three Persons mutually indwell one another. This is part of what "one God" means. There is a mutual indwelling.
John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
And, I will be quite honest with you..in the USA Oneness Pentecostals are considered to be some of the most ignorant people within professing Christiandom. Their "scholars" are generally from places with lower levels of education like the deep South. I am not claiming all people from the deep South are ignorant, but there is a tendency towards this. As I watch debate videos with Oneness Pentecostals and apologists like James White, I am not impressed with them.
There is one redeeming virtue about them, though. Most believe the Bible is the truth, even though they've been indoctrinated into a false interpretation of it. This is similar to me as a cultist. I was a dumb twenty-something when I began studying the Bible and believing their false, anti-Trinitarian rhetoric, but at least I believed the Bible was the word of God. That's a starting place. All you need to do is get past their ignorant, false, conspiracy-level view of Christianity and then you might make some progress
His distinct Personhood is shown by the fact that Jesus called him "another Comforter" or helper (Parakletos) that Jesus would send (again, this word conveys personal interaction). This Person is not Jesus, who is a Comforter as well. See 1 John
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (ESV Strong's)
The word "Comforter" and "advocate" are the same in Greek (parakletos).
In one sense, you could call the Holy Spirit the "Spirit of Christ" or "Spirit of the Father" because there is only one God, and the three Persons mutually indwell one another. This is part of what "one God" means. There is a mutual indwelling.
John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
And, I will be quite honest with you..in the USA Oneness Pentecostals are considered to be some of the most ignorant people within professing Christiandom. Their "scholars" are generally from places with lower levels of education like the deep South. I am not claiming all people from the deep South are ignorant, but there is a tendency towards this. As I watch debate videos with Oneness Pentecostals and apologists like James White, I am not impressed with them.
There is one redeeming virtue about them, though. Most believe the Bible is the truth, even though they've been indoctrinated into a false interpretation of it. This is similar to me as a cultist. I was a dumb twenty-something when I began studying the Bible and believing their false, anti-Trinitarian rhetoric, but at least I believed the Bible was the word of God. That's a starting place. All you need to do is get past their ignorant, false, conspiracy-level view of Christianity and then you might make some progress
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I can see that Oneness Pentecostalism has to jump through a lot of hoops to maintain and explain the assertion that God is only one Person, in light of the interpersonal activity between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father sends the Son, the Father and Son send the Holy Spirit, the Father and the Holy Spirit witness to the Son, the Son intercedes for the believer with God, etcetera. These are all interpersonal activities. If only one Person exists, then these claims are nonsense.
There is one God (in terms of essence or being) yet three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three Persons are co-essential and co-eternal.
To be co-essential means to share the same essence or being. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit mutually indwell one another.
This is what is necessary in order to avoid being incoherent.
It's not that hard to understand, really. And, it is nonsense to read Scripture without this view. You really cannot make sense of interpersonal activity with your theology.
There is one God (in terms of essence or being) yet three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three Persons are co-essential and co-eternal.
To be co-essential means to share the same essence or being. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit mutually indwell one another.
This is what is necessary in order to avoid being incoherent.
It's not that hard to understand, really. And, it is nonsense to read Scripture without this view. You really cannot make sense of interpersonal activity with your theology.
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"At that moment Jesus said: My Father, Lord of heaven and earth, I am grateful that you hid all this from wise and educated people and showed it to ordinary people." -Matthew 11:25(Contemporary English Version)
"At that time Jesus said, "Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned." -Matthew 11:25(Good News Translation)
"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." -Matthew 11:25(King James Bible)
There is a lot of videos of Oneness vs Trinitarian debates, but I do not know James White, I rather watch the debate of David Bernard...
That's a starting place. All you need to do is get past their ignorant, false, conspiracy-level view of Christianity and then you might make some progress
God knows I am a former apologist Trinitarian and I encountered a debate with the Oneness believers. In my early teens, I had debated a local pastor of UPC with tears to defend the Trinity doctrine.
But thanks God change my life, no person or pastor that convince me to turn my belief to Oneness of God, it seems Jesus directly convince me.
Why you will not come the Scriptures says how the sharing was made of Divine essence/being.
Clearly, the scripture says there is only one God the Father, and the Father gave everything to the Son, and Jesus testified that it was given to Him from the Father.
It is not the three persons who are co-equal sharing the essence/being. But the Father is the source of Divine essence(Spirit being) and fully shared/given to the Son, this is the true biblical statement.
See post "191.
That's the kind of confidence I had as a cultist.
Just because you, as an ignorant teenager, cannot defend the Trinity doesn't mean that it cannot be defended. It can be defended.
In fact, you have to ignore the interpersonal activity within the Triune God in order to hold your position. And, as well, you have to deny that Jesus existed as a Person prior to the Incarnation, which is denying the deity of Christ because you are claiming he had a beginning.
The Trinity is a valid Christian doctrine.
I encourage folks to watch the debates between James White and Roger Perkins, as well as Robert Sabin. I don't think Bernard has debated him, but I think they had a radio coversation of some type. I highly suggest that Trinitarian Christians listen to these debates. It is obvious which ones are distorting Scripture.
And, by the way, I will suggest that their ignorance is not a virtue. It is true that God saves those that the world does not value (1 Cor 1:26ff) but they shouldn't continue in their ignorance.
Just because you, as an ignorant teenager, cannot defend the Trinity doesn't mean that it cannot be defended. It can be defended.
In fact, you have to ignore the interpersonal activity within the Triune God in order to hold your position. And, as well, you have to deny that Jesus existed as a Person prior to the Incarnation, which is denying the deity of Christ because you are claiming he had a beginning.
The Trinity is a valid Christian doctrine.
I encourage folks to watch the debates between James White and Roger Perkins, as well as Robert Sabin. I don't think Bernard has debated him, but I think they had a radio coversation of some type. I highly suggest that Trinitarian Christians listen to these debates. It is obvious which ones are distorting Scripture.
And, by the way, I will suggest that their ignorance is not a virtue. It is true that God saves those that the world does not value (1 Cor 1:26ff) but they shouldn't continue in their ignorance.
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I will simply continue to state that you cannot make sense of the Bible if you hold the Oneness position, because interpersonal activity is presented between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
That's simply all there is to it.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-essential, distinct Persons sharing the same divine nature. It's as simple as that, and Scripture can be coherently read in light of this simple teaching.
The Father and the Holy Spirit witness to Jesus. Witnessing REQUIRES distinct persons, as I cannot witness to myself, for example.
It is so simple a Christian child can understand this
Yet a Oneness Pentecostal cannot.
That's simply all there is to it.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-essential, distinct Persons sharing the same divine nature. It's as simple as that, and Scripture can be coherently read in light of this simple teaching.
The Father and the Holy Spirit witness to Jesus. Witnessing REQUIRES distinct persons, as I cannot witness to myself, for example.
It is so simple a Christian child can understand this
Yet a Oneness Pentecostal cannot.
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Here's some James White debates or discussions with Oneness Pentecostals.
Keep in mind that Oneness Pentecostals do not simply claim that the Trinity is an error. Quite often they declare that they are the true believers, and that speaking in tongues is required to prove one's faith. Additionally, there is a teaching that baptism must occur in a certain manner, by Oneness Pentecostal preachers, in the name of Jesus. This is pretty much the same type of false teaching of the cult I belonged.
Also, note that their view of God does not allow for genuine interpersonal activity between the "manifestations" of the Godhead in their worldview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-KMGuXCs-c
Keep in mind that Oneness Pentecostals do not simply claim that the Trinity is an error. Quite often they declare that they are the true believers, and that speaking in tongues is required to prove one's faith. Additionally, there is a teaching that baptism must occur in a certain manner, by Oneness Pentecostal preachers, in the name of Jesus. This is pretty much the same type of false teaching of the cult I belonged.
Also, note that their view of God does not allow for genuine interpersonal activity between the "manifestations" of the Godhead in their worldview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-KMGuXCs-c
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