Does man have a freewill ?

[TomCullen]

I happen to be one of many millions of Americans who responsibly own a fire arm. The last few years have been pretty rough at times. On several occasions, the thought of putting a pistol in my mouth has crossed my mind. I wisely rejected such temptations. Did God Himself restrain my hand? Or was it the knowledge of God which did so? I'm going to go with the latter. But to my mind, there is no difference.

 

[Cameron143]

What did Jesus and Paul say?

John 1: 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE (no works)

John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)

John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)

John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)

John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)

John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)

EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

THE INHERITANCE HE SAID WE ALREADY HAD IN THE 1ST 12 VERSES. (AGAIN, NO WORKS)

eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)

rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN NO WORKS. PERIOD)

rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)

Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (AGAIN NO WORKS)

Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK (AS i HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIME, GRACE + WORKS = WORKS.. GRACE AND WORKS CAN NOT MIX IN THE AREA OF SALVATION. ITS LIKE MIXING OIL AND WATER)

2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN (AGAIN, NO WORKS. BUT GRACE)

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED USthrough the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
(AGAIN, NO QUESTION HERE. PAUL LEAVES NO QUESTION. NO GOOD DEED CAN SAVE US,. WE ARE SAVED BY GODS MERCY, AND GIVEN THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHICH IS PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

Titus 1: 2 in HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE which GOD WHO CAN NOT LIE PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

you tell me. what did God say in all of these verses the point of when one is saved, Justified. etc etc? what happened?


The wage of sin is death, the condemnation of the law or the curse of not obeying perfectly is death

Hence the penalty of sin must be removed before one is saved, otherwise they are still dead in their sin.

again, look at all the passages I just posted (I can post so many more ) when did this new life. this new birth. this salvation. this freedom for condemnation come?

wage of sin is death

gift of God is life. what is the gift? Justification, Salvation, Redemption. etc etc.

when are we justified. before faith or after?

hence the order is we are dead. By grace we are saved through faith or made alive.


God performs it all

I did not preform anything, I just received his offer of forgiveness.

I can not boast. because I did nothing but do what he asked, received his love offering of the cross

So...regeneration first, then faith?

 

[Magenta]

yes.
also a dog returns to his vomit
a bad tree and a dog are related. they are lost. and have no hope. thus can not produce fruit.
God must change us.
How are we changed into new creatures?
For it is by grace we have been save (a completed action) through faith
those saved through this faith are new creatures created for good works (producing fruit)
some want to remove faith from the equation. Again, God will not force you to receive his grace gift.. in the same token, he will not keep it from you either.
You must chose..

but as many as have recieved him!!!

I cannot say I have seen any remove faith from the equation. Earlier you said seeing and believing was removed by some, but again I have seen no evidence of this. I think people ascribe some hated person's name to a set of beliefs and don't really take the time to understand what someone believes after they plaster that name on them as a pejorative. The natural man can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. This is explicitly stated. With the heart one believes. This is explicitly stated. His heart is incurably wicked. This is explicitly stated. There are none righteous. This is explicitly stated. Man cannot change himself. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. This is explicitly stated. So many things explicitly stated about the natural man are routinely brushed aside, ignored, contradicted, and outright denied. It is nigh impossible to get such people to see what Scripture actually says. They prefer their version to the truth.

 

[lrs68]

I happen to be one of many millions of Americans who responsibly own a fire arm. The last few years have been pretty rough at times. On several occasions, the thought of putting a pistol in my mouth has crossed my mind. I wisely rejected such temptations. Did God Himself restrain my hand? Or was it the knowledge of God which did so? I'm going to go with the latter. But to my mind, there is no difference.

Did you think about other ways to end your existence before owning a firearm?

 

[TomCullen]

Did you think about other ways to end your existence before owning a firearm?

There's a million ways to die.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Kind of like jumping over a puddle or walking around it. One way is ordained by God but the other way is man's inability to hear God and why he got wet.

Yeah, right. Do we see man's "inability to hear" in Romans 1?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.​

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.​

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.​

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.​

[The New King James Version (Ro 1:18–32). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

No, what we see here is a free will to deny what God has shown us to be true.

 

[Magenta]

Yeah, right. Do we see man's "inability to hear" in Romans 1?

There are actually quite a few verses that address the issue of hearing, such as His sheep hear His voice,
and those who hear will live, that is to say, escape the second death, having attained to life ever after...

John 8 verses 43, 47, Acts 13 verse 48, Romans 8 verse 8, John 8 verse 43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So...regeneration first, then faith?

talk about a mocking post

Do you have any humility at all?

I ask this with all sincerity

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I cannot say I have seen any remove faith from the equation.

@Cameron143 just did. when he stated regeneration, or salvation occurs before faith. and just mocked me when I asked him to tell me when salvation occured in all the verses I posted (not mentioning one verse. or trying to even show how my thinking was flawed

Earlier you said seeing and believing was removed by some, but again I have seen no evidence of this. I think people ascribe some hated person's name to a set of beliefs and don't really take the time to understand what someone believes after they plaster that name on them as a pejorative. The natural man can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. This is explicitly stated. With the heart one believes. This is explicitly stated. His heart is incurably wicked. This is explicitly stated. There are none righteous. This is explicitly stated. Man cannot change himself. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. This is explicitly stated. So many things explicitly stated about the natural man are routinely brushed aside, ignored, contradicted, and outright denied. It is nigh impossible to get such people to see what Scripture actually says. They prefer their version to the truth.

when one says salvation comes by grace, but comes before faith.. they are removing faith.

You can say you do not see it 1000 times. it does not make it true.

any more than a person who says we are saved by faith plus works. can say no one is saying they are trying to earn salvation.

 

[Cameron143]

talk about a mocking post

Do you have any humility at all?

I ask this with all sincerity

You posited in your last post that sin must be dealt with first so life must be given. Is that not regeneration?

I'm simply trying to understand what you believe. To that end, I have asked questions to learn and for clarification.

You said that I misrepresented your position. I'll happily apologize if that is so, but I can't determine that without first actually understanding what you believe.

BTW...answering my last question would have let me know.

 

[Cameron143]

@Cameron143 just did. when he stated regeneration, or salvation occurs before faith. and just mocked me when I asked him to tell me when salvation occured in all the verses I posted (not mentioning one verse. or trying to even show how my thinking was flawed


when one says salvation comes by grace, but comes before faith.. they are removing faith.

You can say you do not see it 1000 times. it does not make it true.

any more than a person who says we are saved by faith plus works. can say no one is saying they are trying to earn salvation.

I didn't remove faith. I simply asked if regeneration proceeded faith. See...both included.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

There are actually quite a few verses that address the issue of hearing, such as His sheep hear His voice,
and those who hear will live, that is to say, escape the second death, having attained to life ever after...

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”​

11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.​

12 “For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.​

13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.​

14 “In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,​

‘aYOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;​

YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;​

15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,​

WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,​

AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,​

OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, ​

HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, ​

AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, ​

AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’​

16 “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.​

17 “For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.​

​

[New American Standard Bible: 1995 update (Mt 13:10–17). (1995). The Lockman Foundation.]​

When the lost hear and see the gospel but do not understand it, it is because they have closed their mind to God. It is not because God has blinded them. And if they change their minds and stop resisting God, then they would see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and God would heal them.

 

[Magenta]

@Cameron143 just did. when he stated regeneration, or salvation occurs before faith. and just mocked me when I asked him to tell me when salvation occured in all the verses I posted (not mentioning one verse. or trying to even show how my thinking was flawed

when one says salvation comes by grace, but comes before faith.. they are removing faith.

You can say you do not see it 1000 times. it does not make it true.

any more than a person who says we are saved by faith plus works. can say no one is saying they are trying to earn salvation.

I do not believe that is what Cameron did and I don't believe he did it just because you say he did it, either. You can say it a 1000 times and it doesn't make it true and I won't believe it either. Scripture says we are sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit of God upon coming to believe.

 

[Lamar]

Does man have a freewill ?

Im not asking does man have a will, sure he does. God created man with a will, and man has a responsible and accountable will that God gave him at creation. However the question remains, does man have a freewill ?

Man though he has a will, his will isnt free from Gods Sovereign Will and Purpose. Mans will is always subservient to Gods Sovereign Purpose !

Im going to share some scripture which without doubt, indicate that mans will is subservient to Gods Will of Purpose.

Dan 4:34-35

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


Prov 16:9

9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

Prov 19:21

21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.

Jer 10:23

23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

These are just a few verses, there are many more !

Not sure what your point is but.


Judges 21:25
In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit.


1 Corinthians 12:2-3
2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

No one needs to "influence" or cause to be "led astray" if that person has no choice in their fate.

 

[brightfame52]

I was actually setting up the Verses below:


Actually that verse is talking about becoming saved and then leaving God like these Verses explain.


4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance

Hence the portion: it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance

They've repented once to be saved but now can never repent again!

I dont believe you understand that passage. You just quoted it and expect someone else to explain it.

 

[brightfame52]

Unfree will is no different from animal instinct or programmed robots.

So be it, because its not free, in fact scripture calls men beast by nature Ecc 3 18

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

Take it from this wise man !

 

[brightfame52]

What's funny (lol) about this reply is that the logic only works one way. When people sin (as allowed by God), it is not God's fault. But when they decide to repent of their sins and put their trust in Christ (as allowed by God), it is because His will is irresistable.

I never stated anything about God being at fault. Reread

 

[brightfame52]

@Lamar

Not sure what your point is but.

I know you dont, but I do and God does

 

[Magenta]

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”​

11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.​

12 “For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.​

13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.​

14 “In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,​

‘aYOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;​

YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;​

15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,​

WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,​

AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,​

OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, ​

HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, ​

AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, ​

AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’​

16 “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.​

17 “For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.​

​

[New American Standard Bible: 1995 update (Mt 13:10–17). (1995). The Lockman Foundation.]​

When the lost hear and see the gospel but do not understand it, it is because they have closed their mind to God. It is not because God has blinded them. And if they change their minds and stop resisting God, then they would see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and God would heal them.

In your understanding of Scripture, then, does one become a sheep after hearing, or is one a sheep before hearing, and being a sheep facilitates hearing? Being a sheep is also equivalent to being classified as wheat contrasted against being a tare, for the wheat is saved, and the tares are destroyed. Tares are sown by the enemy (the devil) in the same field as the wheat. In your theology, then, can a tare choose to become wheat? In your theology, since we were by nature children of wrath before we came to believe, is this not the natural state man is born into as a result of being born after Adam? We have quite a few Pelagian heretics here who deny the natural state of man, of whom Scripture says he can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. The gospel message is foolishness to him, and yet people say that guy will choose to believe it in his incurably wicked heart, which is a bad tree incapable of bringing forth good fruit. And Scripture also delegates salvation to being of the desire and will of God and not the desire, effort, or will of man, and yet so many say it it by man's will, which they claim to be free, even though Scriptures never says man's will is free. In fact, Scripture proclaims the natural man to be a slave to sin and a lover of darkness who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. It is Jesus who sets us free.

John 3 verse 6, Romans 8 verse 7, Galatians 5 verse 17, 2 Timothy 3 verse 13, Romans 3 verse 18 ~ Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[BillyBob]

x

When the lost hear and see the gospel but do not understand it, it is because they have closed their mind to God. It is not because God has blinded them. And if they change their minds and stop resisting God, then they would see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and God would heal them.

Seems as though you overlooked the most important reason for parables!
When the lost hear and see but do not understand – it is because God has not enabled them to hear and see!

Matt 13:11 Jesus answered them His disciples, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted"

He speaks in parables to put a stumbling block in front of those who do not belong to Him! He leaves them in their own strength, which is: They cannot hear and believe because it has not been given to them!