Does man have a freewill ?

[reneweddaybyday]

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery

Which is Christ. He made that clear earlier 1 Cor 1:24

Do you know that there is more than one "mystery" revealed in Scripture?

mystery of the kingdom
mystery kept secret since the world began
mysteries of God
mystery we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed
mystery concerning Christ and the church compared to husband and wife = one flesh
mystery of iniquity
mystery of the faith
mystery of godliness
mystery of the seven stars
mystery of the woman and the beast that carries her


If mysteries are conflated and considered interchangeable, that is poor workmanship when it comes to the study of Scripture.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Just more Scriptures for them to deny! There are so many!!!

Concerning the verses you submitted in your panel:

First, you submit only a portion of 1 Cor 4:7 with no regard to what Paul was dealing with at the church in Corinth ... at the very least, 1 Cor 4:7 and 1 Cor 4:6 should be read together:

1 Corinthians 4:6-7 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Paul and Apollos were faced with folks who were treating them in the same manner you treat some of the believers who have submitted posts in this thread ... these things ought not so to be.


In John 3:27, John was answering a question one of his disciples asked

John 3:25-31 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

John was referring to the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ – which must increase ... and his own ministry – which must decrease. John was the forerunner and John faithfully fulfilled his ministry.


Concerning Romans 9:15-16, these verses are to be understood in light of the heaviness and continual sorrow Paul spoke of concerning his kinsmen according to the flesh (Israelites)

Rom 9:10-16 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

vs 11-12 – what God told Rebecca before the children were born is revealed in Genesis 25 – two nations are in thy womb ... and the elder shall serve the younger. God did not claim that He would love Jacob or hate Esau before Jacob and Esau were born.

vs 13 – the words Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated were not spoken by God before the children were born, nor were they spoken while Jacob and Esau were alive on the earth. The words were spoke in Malachi ... the last book in the Old Testament, well after many generations had sprung from Jacob and Esau.

From Pulpit Commentary:

“Malachi is not speaking of the predestination of the one brother and reprobation of the other; he is contrasting the histories of the two peoples represented by them … Both nations sinned; both are punished; but Israel by God’s free mercy was forgiven and restored, while Edom was left in the misery which it had brought upon itself by its own iniquity”​

While I enjoy your panels and I understand the time, effort and thought you put into each panel, your panels are art and are not to replace a full reading of Scripture.


And for the record I do not "deny!" Scripture. In the same breath that you claim "Just more Scriptures for them to deny! There are so many!!!", what Scripture do you deny in a full reading of the context in which your verses sit?
.

 

[brightfame52]

here's one ...



Since that is your definition of "freewill", then I am not a "freewiller" as I do not deny that those who are not born again are "dead to God spiritually".
.

Okay

 

[brightfame52]

@reneweddaybyday

Do you know that there is more than one "mystery" revealed in Scripture?

Pauls speaking was focused on Christ and Him Crucifed 1 Cor 2:1-2

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

So He preached primarily Christ as the Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:23-24


23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

So in this context, what makes you think He is no longer speaking about Christ here 1 Cor 2:6-7

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

 

[GWH]

[s verse ize=1]From: John 8 verse 34; 2 Peter 2 verse 19a; Galatians 4 verse 8; Romans 7 verse 14; Ephesians 2 verse 3b; Romans 6:6 ~ “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.” They are slaves of corruption. When you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. You were of the flesh, sold under sin. We were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Our old self was crucified so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. [/size]

Yes, everyone who commits the Sin of rejecting God/GW/the Gospel is a slave to the one whom they offer themselves to obey,
and everyone may no longer be enslaved to sin when they obey God's teaching/Gospel--thanks be to God! (Rom. 6:16-17)

 

[GWH]

The Arminian vs Calvin war never ends it seems.

Because TULIPists are unwilling to acknowledge GW teaching God's omnilove (Matt. 23:37, 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, etc.).

 

[Magenta]

While I enjoy your panels and I understand the time, effort and thought you put into
each panel, your panels are art and are not to replace a full reading of Scripture.
.

Unless you do similar work in Photoshop I very much doubt you do even if you want to think you do kike the pretender you are. I will make a panel just for you with the full Bible on it, ok? Yeah, you misrepresent me, claim I have said things I have not, pretend you know what goes into the making of my panels, everyone's a critic! So you lie, act all high and mighty rolling your eyes at me while you are bearing false witness, and I am supposed to think we can have some kind of fruitful dialogue? No. I have you on ignore and if you wish to apologize to me for lying about what I have said find some other way to do it without being such a pretentious hypocrite.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It has been explained to you in the pages of this thread that God is the One Who reaches out to the unbeliever.

Thats false

nope ... Scripture is quite clear on this point. you can deny all you want, but your denial does not change the truth of Scripture.

the unbeliever, unless Just quickened, is dead. You dont reach out to dead folk. did Jesus merely reach out to the dead Lazarus ? Yeah God reaches out with power when at His powerful word raises up a dead person.

iow ... God does reach out to the unbeliever. Glad we are in agreement on that point.

Also That Romans 1:18ff is showing the activity of the dead in sin. It takes more than the natural creation of God to raise up spiritually dead sinners, dont you think God knows that.

Romans 1:18ff follows directly after Romans 1:16-17:

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

When the gospel of Christ is preached to an unbeliever and he or she believes ... the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes.

When the gospel of Christ preached to an unbeliever and he or she suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, that person falls under Scripture revealed in Rom 1:18ff.
.

 

[GWH]

Concerning the verses you submitted in your panel:

First, you submit only a portion of 1 Cor 4:7 with no regard to what Paul was dealing with at the church in Corinth ... at the very least, 1 Cor 4:7 and 1 Cor 4:6 should be read together:

1 Corinthians 4:6-7 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Paul and Apollos were faced with folks who were treating them in the same manner you treat some of the believers who have submitted posts in this thread ... these things ought not so to be.

In John 3:27, John was answering a question one of his disciples asked

John 3:25-31 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

John was referring to the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ – which must increase ... and his own ministry – which must decrease. John was the forerunner and John faithfully fulfilled his ministry.

Concerning Romans 9:15-16, these verses are to be understood in light of the heaviness and continual sorrow Paul spoke of concerning his kinsmen according to the flesh (Israelites)

Rom 9:10-16 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

vs 11-12 – what God told Rebecca before the children were born is revealed in Genesis 25 – two nations are in thy womb ... and the elder shall serve the younger. God did not claim that He would love Jacob or hate Esau before Jacob and Esau were born.

vs 13 – the words Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated were not spoken by God before the children were born, nor were they spoken while Jacob and Esau were alive on the earth. The words were spoke in Malachi ... the last book in the Old Testament, well after many generations had sprung from Jacob and Esau.

From Pulpit Commentary:

“Malachi is not speaking of the predestination of the one brother and reprobation of the other; he is contrasting the histories of the two peoples represented by them … Both nations sinned; both are punished; but Israel by God’s free mercy was forgiven and restored, while Edom was left in the misery which it had brought upon itself by its own iniquity”​

While I enjoy your panels and I understand the time, effort and thought you put into each panel, your panels are art and are not to replace a full reading of Scripture.

And for the record I do not "deny!" Scripture. In the same breath that you claim "Just more Scriptures for them to deny! There are so many!!!", what Scripture do you deny in a full reading of the context in which your verses sit?
.

Amen! That is exactly the feedback I have been giving Mag for months,
most recently regarding #645 that "Yes, everyone who commits the Sin of rejecting God/GW/the Gospel
is a slave to the one whom they offer themselves to obey, and everyone may no longer be enslaved to sin
when they obey God's teaching/Gospel--thanks be to God! (Rom. 6:16-17)

 

[reneweddaybyday]

BTW folks, the ones in Rom 1:18ff are the reprobate vessels of wrath, who can never be saved

God can and will save whoever He wants ... there are many born again believers who had joined in the activities God describes in vss 18-32 prior to believing the gospel of Christ as shown in Rom 1:16 ... and once they believe they are brought to salvation through the power of God.

Now the vessels of mercy, though they are naturally as sinful and ungodly as these vessels of wrath, the vessels of mercy are at no time partakers of Gods wrath, but always sheltered under His Mercy.

You think you were exempt from what is shown in Rom 1:18-32 before you were born again? ... nope, you were just like the folks spoken of in those verses.

how many times did someone preach the gospel of Christ to you before you believed? You may have believed the first time someone spoke to you, but for many believers, they were approached many times ... the first time they heard, that was the planting ... the subsequent times, that was the watering ... and God does not give increase until the person believes.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It is probably difficult at best to come up with a working definition for free will since it is not a Biblical concept.

exactly ... not a Biblical concept ...

In the Bible, man is classified as being either a slave to sin or a slave to God, righteousness, and Jesus Christ.

another of God's classification of people found in Scripture:

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God

If not born again, one is either Jew or gentile aka as you state "slave to sin"

If born again ... one is a member of the church of God aka members of the body of Christ of which the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head aka as you state "slave to God, righteousness, and Jesus Christ" ...

in either case, God's instruction to the believer is to give none offence.

The real issue is whether or not the natural man with his stony heart can receive the Word of God. Scripture says no.

1 Thessalonians 2:13-14 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews

These folks in Thessalonica received the Word of God ... which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

God creates the new heart within the born again one the moment he or she believes ...

But those who espouse free will largely contradict and deny these Biblical truths.

"free will" – manmade term for which there is no Scriptural truth.

While it seems glaringly obvious to others that it is Christ Who sets us free.

all who have posted in this thread are in agreement that it is Christ Who sets us free ... so there are no "others" who have posted on this thread to whom this truth is not "glaringly obvious".
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Pauls speaking was focused on Christ and Him Crucifed 1 Cor 2:1-2

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

So He preached primarily Christ as the Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:23-24


23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

So in this context, what makes you think He is no longer speaking about Christ here 1 Cor 2:6-7

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

brightfame52 ... Paul describes the issues occurring within the church at Corinth.

there were contentions in the church because the church members were following men – 1 Cor 1: 11-12:

1 Corinthians 1:11-12 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.


Because they were following men rather than the Lord Jesus Christ, their spiritual maturity was stunted ... they were not maturing spiritually. In 1 Cor 3, Paul states they were carnal and needed to be fed with milk and not with meat:

1 Corinthians 3:1-4 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Following men results in carnality and spiritual immaturity. Paul states he fed them with milk, and not with meat.


In 1 Cor 2 Paul states that he preached Jesus Christ, and Him crucified ... which is the gospel by which the unbeliever is brought from death to life ... and then continue to follow the Lord, feed on the milk of the Word, and grow from newborn babe to maturity then feed on the meat.

1 Corinthians 2:2-5 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Paul was discouraging the believers from following men ... Paul was encouraging the believers to follow the Lord Jesus Christ ... feed on the milk of the Word and grow to spiritual maturity.


Now read verse 6 where Paul describes what was discussed and taught to the more mature believers in the church at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought

The words "are perfect" are translated from the Greek word téleios which means mature, of full age. Paul specifically states that he and other more mature spoke wisdom amongst themselves. These discussions were not held in the regular church congregation.

1 Cor 2:6-16 specifically relates to spiritual matters which go beyond the scope of the gospel which was taught in the general congregation of the church:

vs 6 – the wisdom was discussed among the mature believers ... the gospel was taught in the general congregation (vss 1-2).

vs 7 – the wisdom of God in a mystery ... this wisdom was kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25); and in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men (Eph 3:5); and from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God (Eph 3:9); and which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest (Col 1:26). Please understand, the gospel was never hid by God ... the gospel is proclaimed throughout all of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

vs 8 – if the devil and his minions had known the mystery, the hidden wisdom, they never would have crucified the Lord Jesus Christ.

vs 9 – the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 10 – the deep things of God go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel). The gospel is considered milk upon which the new believer (indeed, all believers) is to desire so that he/she may grow thereby... the mystery, the hidden wisdom is (scripturally) considered to be strong meat.

vs 11 – the things of God which no man knoweth go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 12 – the things that are freely given to us of God go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 13 – things which the Holy Ghost teacheth go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 14 – the things of the Spirit of God and specifically the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

hope/pray this helps ...
.

 

[GWH]

exactly ... not a Biblical concept ...

another of God's classification of people found in Scripture:

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God

If not born again, one is either Jew or gentile aka as you state "slave to sin"

If born again ... one is a member of the church of God aka members of the body of Christ of which the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head aka as you state "slave to God, righteousness, and Jesus Christ" ...

in either case, God's instruction to the believer is to give none offence.

1 Thessalonians 2:13-14 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews

These folks in Thessalonica received the Word of God ... which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

God creates the new heart within the born again one the moment he or she believes ...

"free will" – manmade term for which there is no Scriptural truth.

all who have posted in this thread are in agreement that it is Christ Who sets us free ... so there are no "others" who have posted on this thread to whom this truth is not "glaringly obvious".
.

The problematic part of the doctrine of election (DOE) is not the term “elect”, which simply means “choose souls to be saved”,
but rather it is whether God determines that only some sinners will be saved and that the majority of humanity are condemned to hell in accordance with what is known as the Calvinist TULIP dogma, which may be described as follows:

T – total depravity, meaning souls are unable to exercise sufficient MFW to seek salvation.

U – unconditional election, meaning that souls need not satisfy a divine requirement such as faith or repentance, but God chooses to save some while damning the rest to hell.

L – limited atonement, meaning that Christ died to pay the penalty of sin only for elect souls.

I – irresistible grace, meaning that elect souls cannot resist or refuse God’s will for them to be saved.

P – perseverance of the saints, meaning that the elect cannot repudiate their salvation and commit apostasy, because God perseveres in keeping them saved.

The viewpoint opposed to TULIP may be termed Moral Free Will (MFW) and described as follows:

M – God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) is a Moral condition called faith, which is manifested as seeking God’s righteousness or salvation, which in turn presumes sufficient human volition even for sinners to make them morally accountable.

F – God enables all morally accountable souls sufficient Freedom to satisfy GRFS—or not, because His grace is not irresistible, which means sinners are accountable and justly condemned when they do not repent and accept Christ’s atonement for their sins

W – Faith is almost synonymous with Will, but volition focuses on faith as cooperation with God (or not), and cooperating with God by accepting His grace is NOT meritorious or working to earn heaven or salvation by obeying moral laws.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Unless you do similar work in Photoshop I very much doubt you do even if you want to think you do kike the pretender you are.

you have described the time and effort you put into each of your panels. I work with various computer applications and I can appreciate the investment of time, resources, effort, revisions/edits to get it "just right" ... the "kike the pretender you are" is uncalled for.

I will make a panel just for you with the full Bible on it, ok?

praying for Holy Spirit inspiration to get you through ...

Yeah, you misrepresent me, claim I have said things I have not, pretend you know what goes into the making of my panels, everyone's a critic! So you lie, act all high and mighty rolling your eyes at me while you are bearing false witness, and I am supposed to think we can have some kind of fruitful dialogue?

sigh ... I searched to see how many times I rolled my eyes at you. Here they are:

You almost made it sound like you disagree with people being born as children of wrath as a result of being born after Adam.

rolleyes ... which post (or posts) submitted by me led you believe I "disagree with people being born as children of wrath as a result of being born after Adam"?

A disturbing thing about free willers is how much that is explicitly stated is routinely contradicted and outright denied.

rolleyes ... under that definition of "free willer", you could color yourself a "free willer"

and fyi, the reason I type out "rolleyes" is because the smilie doesn't always work for me and it appears wonky in the post.

No. I have you on ignore and if you wish to apologize to me for lying about what I have said find some other way to do it without being such a pretentious hypocrite.

you are free to place me on ignore
you are free to continue to believe I lied about what you said
you are free to continue to believe I am a pretentious hypocrite

praying that God will work mightily in the Christian Chat forum to restore fellowship between the members of the body of Christ ... of which the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head.

1 Corinthians 12:

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee ...
.