Does I Corinthians 13 teach certain gifts ceased with the closing of the canon?

[oldethennew]

for sure there are problems but the problems are one side of the coin and the other side of the coin is cessationism

I find it difficult to believe that those who mock and scoff and go out of their way to speak against ANYTHING spiritual in nature are led by the Holy Spirit at all.

we can all agree there is excess and error...obviously these folks have forgotten to consult how to behave as scripture does follow decorum and order

and stating you would believe, or would be more inclined to believe whatever, if a Christian you personally approved of occasioned to experience a gift of supernatural godly origin, is nonsense. you simply do not believe and want it your own way

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well said, with obvious Spiritual understanding...

 

[7seasrekeyed]

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well said, with obvious Spiritual understanding...

well thanks

since I have lived both sides of that coin (not by choice in either case) I just might have gained a little insight by the grace and mercy of God...who sends rain to both the just and the unjust

 

[posthuman]

to say that Spiritual gifts have ceased is like saying that Christ's Faith has grown weaker -
'absurdity'...

amen!

He knows what we need before we even ask it - how to give every good and perfect gift to His children

 

[posthuman]

to say that Spiritual gifts have ceased is like saying that Christ's Faith has grown weaker -
'absurdity'...

for unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ,
not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake
(Philippians 1:29)

does He not still give? is this not also spiritual

 

[garee]

That's a 'convenient' interpretation for your position, but it is not a good way to interpret the passage. I'm quoting fromt he KJV, emphasis in bold, mine.

Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 22:18-19
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Did John write the whole Bible? John wrote a few books, and he wrote 'this book', the book of Revelation. Or 'this scroll'. Scrolls could hold only a limited amount of text, practically, and they didn't keep the whole Bible in one scroll. Nowadays we use a codex, a book bound on one side, which wasn't the practice back then.

You should not 'go beyond what is written' in your interpretation (using the phrase more akin to how you do than the way Paul did.)

Be that as it may, giving a prophecy is not the same thing as adding to the Bible or to the book of Revelation. In the past I have referred you to multiple scriptures that indicate that there have been numerous genuine prophecies that were not recorded in scriptures. Revelation says that the two witnesses will prophesy, but does not tell us what they say. Their prophesying does not mean they will be adding to the Bible or the book of Revelation and incurring plagues to themselves.

You should not try to take away from what the scripture teaches by doing teaching against gifts of the Spirit in the church today.


Why go above that which is written. Is there something missing?
I Corinthians 12
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

If I read scripture, it says 'For to one is given' but you would have us believe it is not given. If I read this scripture, it says all these worketh... the Spirit and you would have us believe the Spirit does not work this way.

These verses are from the same book where Paul writes, in I Corinthians 1 (bold emphasis mine)
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John no more wrote the Bible than any prophet .Holy men were moved according to the will of God.

Paul prophesied as he was moved by the Holy Spirt to speak the word of God just as anyone today. No new prophecy. No need.

 

[garee]

oldethennew said:


to say that Spiritual gifts have ceased is like saying that Christ's Faith has grown weaker -
'absurdity'...

Spiritual gift have not ceased ..Just new prophecy and along with it new knowledge that could come if he was still adding to His book . .
The existing word of God prophecy keeps on giving doing its living work of faith changing hearts .

 

[jb]

Does I Corinthians 13 teach certain gifts ceased with the closing of the canon?

It certainly does NOT teach that spiritual gifts ceased with the closing of the Scriptural canon!

The canon of Scripture is NOWHERE mentioned or implied in 1Cor 13.

The people who say "when that which is perfect is come" refers to the canon of Scripture are twisting and mangling the Scriptures and clearly show their inability to rightly divide the Word of God due to their intellectual and spiritual dishonesty! 1Cor 13v10, 2Tim 2v15, 2Peter 3v16.

Acts 2v16-21,38,39, clearly teaches that spiritual gifts are available throughout the whole of the age of Grace, right up until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus.

 

[wattie]

It certainly does NOT teach that spiritual gifts ceased with the closing of the Scriptural canon!

The canon of Scripture is NOWHERE mentioned or implied in 1Cor 13.

The people who say "when that which is perfect is come" refers to the canon of Scripture are twisting and mangling the Scriptures and clearly show their inability to rightly divide the Word of God due to their intellectual and spiritual dishonesty! 1Cor 13v10, 2Tim 2v15, 2Peter 3v16.

Acts 2v16-21,38,39, clearly teaches that spiritual gifts are available throughout the whole of the age of Grace, right up until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus.

Okay.. well whatever is perfect in 1 Corinthians 13 was in part at the time of Paul's writing.

The perfect thing.. completes the gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge.

Now of course when Jesus returns these gifts are not needed.. but before Jesus returns.. these gifts had particular purposes that were fulfilled.

How are these gifts a part of Jesus' 2nd coming?

Because whatever is perfect is completely related to what is in part.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

It certainly does NOT teach that spiritual gifts ceased with the closing of the Scriptural canon!

The canon of Scripture is NOWHERE mentioned or implied in 1Cor 13.

The people who say "when that which is perfect is come" refers to the canon of Scripture are twisting and mangling the Scriptures and clearly show their inability to rightly divide the Word of God due to their intellectual and spiritual dishonesty! 1Cor 13v10, 2Tim 2v15, 2Peter 3v16.

Acts 2v16-21,38,39, clearly teaches that spiritual gifts are available throughout the whole of the age of Grace, right up until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus.

well cessationists would like to think so

they don't have much else to go on

 

[Absolutely]

well cessationists would like to think so

they don't have much else to go on

What a dilemma.

That position they take "forces" them to misapply or ascribe "another power source"to those that do speak in tongues.

Basically attributing the power of the Holy Spirit to the devil .

Very poor judgement on them. Flat out dangerous

 

[notuptome]

It certainly does NOT teach that spiritual gifts ceased with the closing of the Scriptural canon!

The canon of Scripture is NOWHERE mentioned or implied in 1Cor 13.

The people who say "when that which is perfect is come" refers to the canon of Scripture are twisting and mangling the Scriptures and clearly show their inability to rightly divide the Word of God due to their intellectual and spiritual dishonesty! 1Cor 13v10, 2Tim 2v15, 2Peter 3v16.

Acts 2v16-21,38,39, clearly teaches that spiritual gifts are available throughout the whole of the age of Grace, right up until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus.

Extermely dogmatic position for one taken only with emotional evidence to support it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

well cessationists would like to think so

they don't have much else to go on

Poor folks they be for just taking the scriptures for what they teach. Sad they see truth in place of emotion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

What a dilemma.

That position they take "forces" them to misapply or ascribe "another power source"to those that do speak in tongues.

Basically attributing the power of the Holy Spirit to the devil .

Very poor judgement on them. Flat out dangerous

Nothing like a good straw man argument to obliterate those who love truth and resist delusion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

What a dilemma.

That position they take "forces" them to misapply or ascribe "another power source"to those that do speak in tongues.

Basically attributing the power of the Holy Spirit to the devil .

Very poor judgement on them. Flat out dangerous

The position that defines the gift of tongues as prophecy spoken in other languages other than that of the Hebrew. It comes by looking to the foundation of the doctrine as a law. Found in Isaiah 28 and added to in 1 Corinthians 14. .I call it yet for all that God r has reveled yet they still refuse to believe prophecy alone. Adding signs as un known wonderments to widen its authority. Some call it self edification . A pride builder it would seem .

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Its like David said .Destroy the foundations to the doctrines what could the righteous do? With stammering (mocking lips) God mocks mankind that mocks God refusing to believe prophecy (tongues) in other languages other that Hebrew. It is a sign against unbelief in mankind.

Falling backward is sign that men refuse to believe (sola scriptura ) It as a fad mocks God .It has become the confirming evidence as the sign of "wonderment" the evil generation spoken of. Like just exactly what are they doing?? Quite a sight to behold.

Spiritual gifts not seen, the eternal. Not literal the temporal.

2 Corinthians 4:18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


The Kingdom of God to this day still does not come by observation .We walk by faith the unseen eternal No such thing as a "sign gift". Signs are for those who rebel. Prophecy for those who beleive God.

 

[Noose]

1 Cor 13 doesn't directly teach that the completion of the canon was the perfect that was to come. I believe the perfect that was being spoken of was nothing more than love. Love for one another was what would complete the 'church' which was being established at the moment.

1 John 4 talks of the same thing:

1 John 4:
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We lovee because He first loved us.

 

[notuptome]

1 Cor 13 doesn't directly teach that the completion of the canon was the perfect that was to come. I believe the perfect that was being spoken of was nothing more than love. Love for one another was what would complete the 'church' which was being established at the moment.

1 John 4 talks of the same thing:

1 John 4:
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We lovee because He first loved us.

1 John 4 does not speak as you claim.

History attests to the vanishing of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge following the completion of Revelation by John on Patmos.

The Toronto revival has demonstrated itself to be fraudulent and many who have followed this error have confirmed that it is a fraud on the church.

Tongues today are not scriptural and those endeavoring to demonstrate them in the church today do not follow the scriptural guidelines prescribed in 1 Corinthians. They do not resemble the tongues of Acts 2 other than in name only.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Noose]

1 John 4 does not speak as you claim.

History attests to the vanishing of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge following the completion of Revelation by John on Patmos.

The Toronto revival has demonstrated itself to be fraudulent and many who have followed this error have confirmed that it is a fraud on the church.

Tongues today are not scriptural and those endeavoring to demonstrate them in the church today do not follow the scriptural guidelines prescribed in 1 Corinthians. They do not resemble the tongues of Acts 2 other than in name only.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

1 Cor 13 is not directly about the canon but directly about love. The whole chapter speaks of love and 1 John 4 speaks of being perfected in love.

What Paul was saying in 1 Cor 13 was that the church was not fully established and would only be fully established when they started loving each other.
It was the apostles mandate to establish the church after which they'd pass away and leave an established church. It is true that after the church was established, the canon was also complete but the canon is not the perfect that Paul was talking about, love was.

 

[Dino246]

The position that defines the gift of tongues as prophecy spoken in other languages other than that of the Hebrew. It comes by looking to the foundation of the doctrine as a law. Found in Isaiah 28 and added to in 1 Corinthians 14. .I call it yet for all that God r has reveled yet they still refuse to believe prophecy alone. Adding signs as un known wonderments to widen its authority. Some call it self edification . A pride builder it would seem .

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Its like David said .Destroy the foundations to the doctrines what could the righteous do? With stammering (mocking lips) God mocks mankind that mocks God refusing to believe prophecy (tongues) in other languages other that Hebrew. It is a sign against unbelief in mankind.

Falling backward is sign that men refuse to believe (sola scriptura ) It as a fad mocks God .It has become the confirming evidence as the sign of "wonderment" the evil generation spoken of. Like just exactly what are they doing?? Quite a sight to behold.

Spiritual gifts not seen, the eternal. Not literal the temporal.

2 Corinthians 4:18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


The Kingdom of God to this day still does not come by observation .We walk by faith the unseen eternal No such thing as a "sign gift". Signs are for those who rebel. Prophecy for those who beleive God.

Your position is refuted by the events of Acts 10... as I have told you many times.

 

[Dino246]

1 John 4 does not speak as you claim.

History attests to the vanishing of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge following the completion of Revelation by John on Patmos.

The Toronto revival has demonstrated itself to be fraudulent and many who have followed this error have confirmed that it is a fraud on the church.

Tongues today are not scriptural and those endeavoring to demonstrate them in the church today do not follow the scriptural guidelines prescribed in 1 Corinthians. They do not resemble the tongues of Acts 2 other than in name only.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What does the "Toronto revival" have to do with anything? All you can conclude from such a report is that there was error in that movement; you cannot logically deduce that everything charismatic is therefore fraudulent.

 

[wolfwint]

Cessationism is the belief that gifts of the Spirit, or certain gifts, ceased in the first century or at some later time. One theory is that I Corinthians 13 teaches this idea. Many cessationists reject the idea that 'that which is perfect' in the passage refers to the completed canon.

John Calvin's commentary on the chapter argued that the idea that the perfect referred to the 'intervening time' between either resurrection or death as 'stupid' or 'foolish' depending on your translation. While the idea that 'that which is perfect' seems to be out of favor with the more academic cessationists who study Greek, it still retains some popularity among the rank and file.

Is there any hint in I Corinthians that Paul discusses a completed canon of scripture? No. Does this assumption fit the context? No.

I Corinthians 13
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul compares his speech, thought, and understanding before the perfect came to that of a child, whereas that afterward would be as an adults.

Did Paul's speech, thought, and understanding change into that of an adult's when Revelation was written? No. He was asleep in Christ. Paul makes the passage personally about him. He will, however, experience the resurrection.

Suppose you want to 'stretch' this passage. Can you say that the speech, thought, and understanding of believers who lived after Revelation was so advanced compared to 1st century Paul's that his seemed like that of a child?

Not only does that position put the reader in a superior position to the apostles who wrote scripture, but it also is not true. Many of us read Paul's writings as believers, and years later gain a deeper understanding of them as we continue to read. The light bulb goes off and we get a new insight that Paul clearly had before us...an area where he was more 'perfect' than we were in our understanding.


It also does not make sense that if a group of kindergarteners write a book for infants, and if the infants gain a copy of the book or read it all, that they will suddenly grow up in their understanding to be like adults. Making yourself out to be an adult in understanding and the apostles to be children is not a good way too look at the scriptures, either.

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

The New Testament is written so that we might attain to the level of the understanding the apostles had of the mystery of Christ. There is no guarantee in it that we will make their understanding like that of a child's in comparison by reading the scriptures.

I Corinthians 1
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here, as Paul starts out a letter in which he will address a number of themes, he hints at some of the topics he will address in chapters 12 through 15. Chapter 12 teaches on spiritual gifts, while chapters 13 through 14 and especially 14 focus on tongues and prophesying-- utterance gifts. Notice all utterance and all knowledge and compare to knowledge, tongues, and prophecy in chapter 13.

Chapter 15 teaches about the resurrection of the dead at the return of the Lord Jesus (at his coming.) Paul also refers to the 'end' in chapter 15 when he writes 'and then cometh the end'-- a grammatically inflected form of the same Greek word used here in 1:8 (Strong's G5056.)

Here in chapter 1, we see writes of the Corinthian church and believers everywhere coming behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the 'lens' or 'exegetical key' we should use to interpret chapter 13. We should not read in some later theory or concept that is not even hinted at in the whole book, as those who argue that he is writing about the completed canon do.

Well, 1. Cor.13 simply teaches that certain gifts will end, but not detailed when. Scholars are not shure when they will end. Either at the Lords return ore closing the canon.
But, what is to recognize is, that it had end in the first centurys in the way how this gifts were used in the time of the apostles.