Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

[Endoscopy]

For believers, Christ is the end of the Law.

"For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to every one that believeth." (Romans 10:4)

"By abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace." (Ephesians 2:15)

Believers are not under the Law.

"But if you are led of the Spirit, you are not under the Law." (Galatians 5:18)

"I myself (Paul) am not under the Law." (1 Corinthians 9:20)

"But before faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, being locked up until faith should be revealed. Therefore the Law was put in charge to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the Law." (Galatians 3:23-25)

The Law isn't for believers.

"Knowing this, that the Law is not made for a righteous man.." (1 timothy 1:9)

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the Law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14)

"But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that which we were bound, in order for us to serve in newness of the Spirit, and not in oldness of the written code." (Romans 7:6)

For believers, the Law is a curse.

"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, Everyone who does not do everything written in the book of the law is cursed. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. " (Galatians 3:10, 13)

Those who add Law observance to Christianity are fools.

"This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:2-3)

For believers, the Law was erased and nailed to the cross.

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." (Colossians 2:14)

Believers have died to the Law.

"Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God." (Romans 7:4)

Believers are not to go back to the Law.

"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery (The Law)". - Romans 5:1

A bit incorrect. What Jesus accomplished on the cross was to give a free gift of grace. Since the law is in place and transgression of the law is sin we all are under the condemnation of the law we break. That goes for everybody. The penalty is death. For those who fail to accept the free gift of grace through the in Jesus they will pay the penalty. For those of us who accept this grace our sins were paid for by Jesus suffering death on the cross.

The Romans created their version of the cross as an extreme penalty dying slowly in agony. Some strong men would last days. A person dies of asphyxiation. The persons arms when just hanging make it impossible to take a breath. Therefore they pull up with arms and push with feet. Thus causing more pain. When the muscles get too tired to continue they die.

 

[Endoscopy]

A lesson about the potter.
Books & Products from 'Riches in Christ'
GOD IS THE POTTER
A. Introduction: We are studying the character of God -- what God is like. Accurate knowledge of God's character is an important element in strong faith. Ps 9:10; Those who know your name trust in you, for you, LORD, have never forsaken those who seek you.
Heb. 11:11 Hebrews 11:11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she[a] considered him faithful who had made the promise.
1. Many Christians struggle with trusting God because they think troubles come from God. But, the Bible is very clear. God does not do bad to His people. How do we know? Jesus tells us that and shows us that.
John 14:9; Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Heb. 1:1-3; In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, (2) but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. (3) The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
.Matt 19:17; “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
B. Hardships and difficulties are just here because that's life in a sin cursed earth. God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. But God has made provision for us in difficulties. He will get us through until He gets us out.
.Isa 41:10 So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
Isa 43: 2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze
1. God does use the hardships, trials, and difficulties of life, but He doesn't arrange them.
2. God causes the difficulties of life to serve His purposes -- maximum glory to Himself and maximum good to as many people as possible.
Rom 8:28; Eph. 1:11 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose.

God is the potter, we are the clay and the wheel is time. It takes us time to be molded to perfection in fact we develop flaws during the processes that must be molded out too. He patiently works on us We can help by removing the cotton from our ears and stuffing it in our mouths while he teaches us his ways. Our ways got him murdered yet he still came back to finish what he started in us which is to love and serve him as he sees fit.

I think one of the biggest lessons about God is knowing 2 things.

1. God knows the end from the beginning.
2. In the begining God created the heavens and earth.

Knowing as Jesus incarnate he would suffer on the cross and he did creation anyway!!

 

[Endoscopy]

Paul wasn't sent to Orthodox Jews. It is the Lord Jesus who was preaching to Orthodox Jews. Not that what the Lord Jesus says is not applicable to us, because it is. But its kind of important to remember the audience that is being spoken to.

Pauls epistles aren't for Orthodox Jews. They're for Christians. Christians who think they have gained extra wisdom through their understanding of the law given by Moses.

The Christians wisdom is from the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul explains and expounds on that wisdom given to us. Paul is not contradicting the Lord Jesus but Paul is also not teaching Orthodox Jews. Paul is teaching baby Christians who don't know better.

Orthodox is a modern sect of Judaism not a Biblical times one. They had Pharisees and Sadducees back then. Possibly others that are not mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Budman]

A bit incorrect. What Jesus accomplished on the cross was to give a free gift of grace. Since the law is in place and transgression of the law is sin we all are under the condemnation of the law we break. That goes for everybody. The penalty is death. For those who fail to accept the free gift of grace through the in Jesus they will pay the penalty. For those of us who accept this grace our sins were paid for by Jesus suffering death on the cross.

That's what I said. The Law isn't for born again believers.

 

[Endoscopy]

That's what I said. The Law isn't for born again believers.

Not correct. As born again believers we sin aka break the law. The difference is we are not under the penalty of the law. Are you saying we should freely sin? That it doesn't matter?
Methinks you are ignoring scripture. I add extra verses for context.

Romans 6 NIV
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

 

[Absolutely]

Paul wasn't sent to Orthodox Jews. It is the Lord Jesus who was preaching to Orthodox Jews. Not that what the Lord Jesus says is not applicable to us, because it is. But its kind of important to remember the audience that is being spoken to.

Pauls epistles aren't for Orthodox Jews. They're for Christians. Christians who think they have gained extra wisdom through their understanding of the law given by Moses.

The Christians wisdom is from the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul explains and expounds on that wisdom given to us. Paul is not contradicting the Lord Jesus but Paul is also not teaching Orthodox Jews. Paul is teaching baby Christians who don't know better.

Uh,and how many times did he stir them up in their synagogues?
You serious? You didn't know about 75% of his troubles came from preaching Jesus to the Jews?
I forget how many times he recieved 40 minus 1 stripes. (That was JEWISH law).
In fact,that whole fiasco of traveling to Rome was for preaching to Jews
Btw,Who was the audience in the book of Hebrews?

 

[Budman]

Not correct. As born again believers we sin aka break the law. The difference is we are not under the penalty of the law.

That's what I'm saying. Even though we sin in the flesh, our sins are not credited to us, because we have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. In the eyes of God, we are as sinless as Jesus is.

Are you saying we should freely sin?

God forbid. But you, as well as everyone else, sins freely every single day, so it's a moot question.

That it doesn't matter?

It matters in the sense we invite the chastisement of God, as a loving Father correcting a child. Our disobedience also affects our future rewards and responsibilities in the Kingdom to come.

 

[Grandpa]

Uh,and how many times did he stir them up in their synagogues?
You serious? You didn't know about 75% of his troubles came from preaching Jesus to the Jews?
I forget how many times he recieved 40 minus 1 stripes. (That was JEWISH law).
In fact,that whole fiasco of traveling to Rome was for preaching to Jews
Btw,Who was the audience in the book of Hebrews?

You think it was Orthodox Jews?

I thought it was obvious Paul was speaking to Jewish Christians.

Christians who wanted to mix law with Grace. Like most Christians do.

 

[Endoscopy]

That's what I'm saying. Even though we sin in the flesh, our sins are not credited to us, because we have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. In the eyes of God, we are as sinless as Jesus is.



God forbid. But you, as well as everyone else, sins freely every single day, so it's a moot question.



It matters in the sense we invite the chastisement of God, as a loving Father correcting a child. Our disobedience also affects our future rewards and responsibilities in the Kingdom to come.

Quibbling

 

[PS]

You think it was Orthodox Jews?

I thought it was obvious Paul was speaking to Jewish Christians.

Christians who wanted to mix law with Grace. Like most Christians do.

It might be good to ask ourselves whether or not it is possible to be a Jewish Christian, a Muslim Christian, or a Buddhist Christian etc?

I'm not sure it is possible to mix-and-match one religion, or belief system with another, without creating a cult.

 

[Endoscopy]

It might be goodo to ask ourselves whether or not it is possible to be a Jewish Christian, a Muslim Christian, or a Buddhist Christian etc?

I'm not sure it is possible to mix-and-match one religion, or belief system with another, without creating a cult.

It is impossible to mix and max religions. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
ithout accepting that grace we are doomed.

Judaism rejects Jesus.

Muslims reject Jesus as more than a prophet. The devout follow the sword verse in the Koran. "After the holy days are past smite them about the neck until they submit to Allah.". In other words turn Muslim or die.

HHow do you reconcile with either?
Adherants of Judaism are peaceful about it but in many Muslim countries Christians are being killed. It's not just Muslims and Buddhists in India, but other religions and secular people around the world. Hatred of Christianity is growing in strength everywhere. Even in the US.

 

[Grandpa]

It might be good to ask ourselves whether or not it is possible to be a Jewish Christian, a Muslim Christian, or a Buddhist Christian etc?

I'm not sure it is possible to mix-and-match one religion, or belief system with another, without creating a cult.

Roger that. I agree.

For the simplicity of explaining who they were I said Jewish Christians. There was a problem with mixing and matching religions as you say. And the ones introducing the problem were formerly practicing Judaism.

Paul was trying to help them with their wrong thinking. Trying to mix law with grace was a mistake.

I guess they really weren't practicing either Judaism nor Christianity if they tried to mix both together. Not sure what you would call it.

 

[know1]

You almost got it,

True faith works, so true faith in God and recieving his gracious gift of eternal life will save a person, out of that true faith and out of the power of being made a child of God comes good works.

Thats why if works are not present in one who CLAIMS to have faith, james tells them to test thwir faith, because even demons believe, mere belief is not enough it takes true living faith to save.

Saying work has to be done first is like putting a person under law, and if we add one work, as paul said, we are indebted to obey the whole law, james tells us if we fail in one point, we are guilty, and cursed.

Without corresponding works

Pretty sure we agree.

Yes he comes in personally like He did with Paul,my self,and He does with millions of people.
It is called born again,saved,new birth.

I take it you are for that

It is not so much about Him coming into us personally, but us RECEIVING Him personally, and He won't do that until we first believe and receive the truth of the gospel for ourselves AND ACT ON IT by asking Him to do so.
Two cannot walk together UNTIL they agree.
Jesus will not do what He promised until we meet His requirement of ACTING on His word. Confessing or asking verbally is one of those actions, also known as a WORK of faith or a work done in faith, which is also a doer of the word.
Until one becomes a doer of what they hear or acts on the word they received for themselves personally, ie the gospel concerning salvation or healing, the word they hear will remain dead, not being mixed with faith.
For example, let's say someone hears a word that God healed so and so and He will do the same for them, and they say, 'that may be good for them but God doesn't do that for me.'
They did not agree with the gospel or the work that Jesus wrought for them on the cross, therefore God will not them, because they first, did not receive His word for themself personally, and second, they did not ACT on said word/truth/gospel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Without corresponding works

Those who have true faith will have works, those who do not will never work.

Your trying to make the output of faith a requirement, you have no understanding of what true faith is when you do this, its like trying to say the car running is required to turn the key to start it, the car runs bcause the key was turned, not because it was running.,

It is not so much about Him coming into us personally, but us RECEIVING Him personally, and He won't do that until we first believe and receive the truth of the gospel for ourselves AND ACT ON IT by asking Him to do so.
Two cannot walk together UNTIL they agree.
Jesus will not do what He promised until we meet His requirement of ACTING on His word. Confessing or asking verbally is one of those actions, also known as a WORK of faith or a work done in faith, which is also a doer of the word.
Until one becomes a doer of what they hear or acts on the word they received for themselves personally, ie the gospel concerning salvation or healing, the word they hear will remain dead, not being mixed with faith.
For example, let's say someone hears a word that God healed so and so and He will do the same for them, and they say, 'that may be good for them but God doesn't do that for me.'
They did not agree with the gospel or the work that Jesus wrought for them on the cross, therefore God will not them, because they first, did not receive His word for themself personally, and second, they did not ACT on said word/truth/gospel.

It is the work of god we believe in him,(Jesus, john 6) we are made children because we recieved, not because we acted, (john 1)

You want to take credit for saving yourself because you did something of your own power? Thats on you

I got on my knees like the tax collector and asked God to show mercy because i knew i was unworthy. I am still unworthy if I stood in front of God with nothing but my works, thus i STILL stand only by Gods mercy and forgiveness.

I know this is hard for workers to comprehend, but it is the basic point of the gospel if you can not understand this so you can repent, you will fail to grasp the rest of it.

 

[know1]

Believed in vein,

Mere belief belief without power, a belief that was dead, going theough to motions, but not rooted in christ.

It does not mean working to earn a gift you could never earn to begin with as you are trying to say!

No, vain as in, once believing in Jesus for their salvation, but turning to works for their righteousness or salvation, LATER, because someone convinced them otherwise.
They did not KEEP what they first heard or the gospel of Jesus Christ, and therefore, they believed in vain.
The word "if", is a conditional conjunction, and it remains conditional UNTIL the person dies.
One MUST KEEP the gospel to THE END, otherwise they may have believed in vain.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, vain as in, once believing in Jesus for their salvation, but turning to works for their righteousness or salvation, LATER, because someone convinced them otherwise.
They did not KEEP what they first heard or the gospel of Jesus Christ, and therefore, they believed in vain.
The word "if", is a conditional conjunction, and it remains conditional UNTIL the person dies.
One MUST KEEP the gospel to THE END, otherwise they may have believed in vain.

Nic thoughts, but they do not line up with scripture..

Vein - 89.54 εἰκῇb; μάτην: pertaining to being without any result—‘in vain, to no avail, with no result.’

No result means their belief had no powere thus did not produce results, what results? Salvation.

True saving faith is not in vein. Again, your looking from mans perspective not Gods. Good luck with that.

 

[know1]

You almost got it,

True faith works, so true faith in God and recieving his gracious gift of eternal life will save a person, out of that true faith and out of the power of being made a child of God comes good works.

Thats why if works are not present in one who CLAIMS to have faith, james tells them to test thwir faith, because even demons believe, mere belief is not enough it takes true living faith to save.

Saying work has to be done first is like putting a person under law, and if we add one work, as paul said, we are indebted to obey the whole law, james tells us if we fail in one point, we are guilty, and cursed.

You misunderstood what I was talking about.
I was talking about works of faith, while you were talking about works of the law or moral type works.
One example would be, if a person heard that Jesus died for the sins of the world and even believed Jesus died for his/her sins, BUT did nothing with the word they heard, such as to ask Jesus to be their personal lord and savior, they would remain a sinner, simply because they did not or failed to act on their belief that Jesus died for their forgiveness, to save them from eternal damnation.
Faith is dead, UNTIL one ACTS on that faith, when they believed.
Even though that person may think or believe they are save, they are or were not, because they merely believed, like the demons do.
I would ask you what works you have done that prove you are born again or have the so called "true faith", but I am certain you will not be able to tell me anything, because you would be bragging on yourself, and besides that, I am sure you don't do anything a nonbeliever hasn't done.
Your understanding of "true faith" or true believer, does not hold up to the light of scriptures, sir.
One MUST ACT on their faith FIRST, BEFORE the thing will manifest, NOT after.

 

[know1]

Nic thoughts, but they do not line up with scripture..

Vein - 89.54 εἰκῇb; μάτην: pertaining to being without any result—‘in vain, to no avail, with no result.’

No result means their belief had no powere thus did not produce results, what results? Salvation.

True saving faith is not in vein. Again, your looking from mans perspective not Gods. Good luck with that.

1Co_15:2 By G1223 which G3739 also G2532 ye are saved, G4982 if G1487 ye keep in memory G2722 what G5101 I (G3056) preached G2097 unto you, G5213 unless G1622 G1508 ye have believed G4100 in vain. G1500

Strong's dictionary
G1500
εἰκῆ
eikē
i-kay'
Probably from G1502 (through the idea of failure); idly, that is, without reason (or effect): - without a cause, (in) vain (-ly.)

Thayer's dictionary
G1500
εἰκῆ
eikē
Thayer Definition:
1) inconsiderably, without purpose, without just cause
2) in vain
2a) without success or effort


Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. G1500

Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. G1500

Work or believing done in vain G1500, is the same as work done or believing without success or in failure.
Again, the word "if", is conditional to the end of one's life.

 

[know1]

1. Those who have true faith will have works, those who do not will never work.

2. Your trying to make the output of faith a requirement, you have no understanding of what true faith is when you do this, its like trying to say the car running is required to turn the key to start it, the car runs bcause the key was turned, not because it was running.,

3. It is the work of god we believe in him,(Jesus, john 6) we are made children because we recieved, not because we acted, (john 1)

4. You want to take credit for saving yourself because you did something of your own power? Thats on you

5. I got on my knees like the tax collector and asked God to show mercy because i knew i was unworthy. I am still unworthy if I stood in front of God with nothing but my works, thus i STILL stand only by Gods mercy and forgiveness.

6. I know this is hard for workers to comprehend, but it is the basic point of the gospel if you can not understand this so you can repent, you will fail to grasp the rest of it.

1. What kind of works? Give me an example specifically please, of the kind of good works true faith or believers produce.

2. If you think of faith as the car, and the act as turning the key, you might be closer to the truth. Without acting on what you believe, God will not save you.

3. You believe because of the word of God you receive in your heart. You became a child of God because you acted on said word, and it was the word of God itself that saved you. Even as it was the word of God that created the worlds.

4. No sir, I want no such thing, and I make no such boast.
I cannot save myself with my own power because I have no power of my own.
The power of God is the word of God. I just act on that word and it is the word of God itself that does the work.

5. I too am saved by the grace of God THROUGH FAITH, and that salvation is NOT of myself, and is a gift of and from God, TO THEM THAT BELIEVE.

6. I believe my understanding of HOW the kingdom of God works, and God, for that matter, is fairly accurate. In that regard, I do not need to repent of anything, as God would not act on a lie of the devil, but His word only.
Faith MUST be acted on, or nothing will manifest.
The works I speak of, I dare say, you have not yet comprehended as yet, sir.
I act on the promises of God, as we are commanded, and GOD is the one who does the work through and by His word, because He both watches over and hastens to PERFORM IT.

 

[TMS]

No. We are not guilty, nor can we ever be declared guilty, because the blood of Jesus has cleansed us from all sin. We have the very righteousness of Christ imputed to us.

If we can be guilty, we can be condemned, but the Bible says there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (i.e., "born again" believers). Romans 8:1

Quote it all. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Can we be guilty? Yes. Will all be saved? No.
The path is narrow and few walk it. Few will be saved, so salvation must have a condition. God is judge and we know it is by faith alone that we are saved, but some will be condemned and not be saved.
Some people are found guilty and are not covered.
Love motivates me to obey Jesus' commands. Faith without works is dead.
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

How do you know if your working iniquity or not?