Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

[WalkingTree]

Can i keep the law because i love God? Can i obey Gods laws because i love Him? Or is it legalism to do this?

I'd say it is foolish to attempt to operate under a legal system that doesn't apply to us, having been made obsolete by the changes in the legal system Jesus brought about through his very own words and actions.

God transformed the law and changed the covenant. How is it showing love to deny, skew or misrepresent this truth?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The law does not seperate us from God. Sin does, and we continue to sin when we are in the flesh, but in the Spirit we do not sin.

As commanded through Jesus words, not Moses. Jesus gave commands through the Spirit. Jesus doesn't minister the laws of Moses he ministers the law of the Spirit. These are the commandments that he speaks of. Words spoken as though he was the Father. Words that bring life never condemnation. To reject them is to condemn yourself. Because Jesus words are based upon truth and eternal life. Not sin, which has been removed by the power of his words.

 

[calibob]

Why would any sane person choose the cure of the law over the grace of God?

 

[Absolutely]

Now this is a good question. One has to give the offending party a chance to clear things up. This doesn't come by mocking. This comes by leading others to a relationship with God through the Spirit. It's the whole reason he was given.

Another way is to stop presenting an offensive Messiah to them. Christianity has done as much to separate itself from it's Jewish roots as Rabbinical Judaism has. Both seem to be spiting each other through the ages, trying to out do each others rejection of the other. So maintaining an unbreachable rift between the two. And this is where Messianic Judaism has made huge inroads to rebuilding this bridge.

He is an offense not because he rejects the former Israel, but because he restores her to new in a way they do not understand, yet. The Spirit is longing to teach them, and we are to bring them to the Spirit. I know, I came to Jesus as a young Jew, I know the hurdles. But I didn't come to him because Christians convinced me God rejected us and I had better become a Christian. He met me in the wilderness of my life and maintained me through that wilderness. His condemnation did not lead me to his love. His everlasting loving kindness did.

I am wondering if the "paul only" doctrine prism leads to replacement theology.
(Another rabbit trail)

So far as i can tell several boggus perceptions seem to root and incubate in this " anti-non paul" teaching.

It parallels your argument.

 

[Absolutely]

Why would any sane person choose the cure of the law over the grace of God?

Are you referencing christian vs Judaism, or christian vs all the lost worldwide?

 

[Budman]

Can i keep the law because i love God? Can i obey Gods laws because i love Him? Or is it legalism to do this?

Why in the world would you want to put yourself under a curse?

" For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” (Galatians 3:10-11)

We are to live by faith - not by observation of the Law.

By mixing Law and Grace you are not pleasing God. You're basically saying faith isn't enough and the sacrifice of Jesus wasn't sufficient.

 

[Absolutely]

I like what you said except that they are "entirely separate". True Grace and obeying the law are different things but i can't separate the two in my walk. Grace and faith is essential, i can't live without them because i can't obey the law in my power, but when i understand the grace and have faith obeying the law is a natural result that follows. Faith without works is dead. Like a tree, by grace we are watered and feed, by grace we receive sunshine and by grace we produce fruit. Obedience and Godly fruits are not capable without faith in God or without Grace from God, so law keeping and grace go hand in hand, and can't be separated.

Certainly.
And we need the whole council of God,
all the books,not just Paul's writings.

 

[Absolutely]

Why in the world would you want to put yourself under a curse?

" For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” (Galatians 3:10-11)

We are to live by faith - not by observation of the Law.

By mixing Law and Grace you are not pleasing God. You're basically saying faith isn't enough and the sacrifice of Jesus wasn't sufficient.

He is saying we keep the law automatically, indirectly,not as a means to an end.

 

[calibob]

Are you referencing christian vs Judaism, or christian vs all the lost worldwide?

Typo, 'curse of the law.

 

[calibob]

Not even Jews can be saved by trying to obey the law. Especially since blood sacrifices ended long ago at the temple. Jews that don't accept Jesus are bound for judgment. Jesus fulfilled all the laws at Calvary and proved it at Golgotha.

 

[Grandpa]

Are you referencing christian vs Judaism, or christian vs all the lost worldwide?

I thought he was referencing Christians who should know better.

Like Paul did throughout his epistles.

 

[Endoscopy]

In the Bible God states that sex should be done only in marriage. A study of women found proof of this. Part of the questions in a questionnaire asked about their sexual history. What was found was a linear graph with the number of sexual encounters before marriage. The more sexual encounters the more likely to be divorced. Even if the only person was the one she married. There was an anomily at 2 but the site didn't explain what it was.

 

[Endoscopy]

Why in the world would you want to put yourself under a curse?

" For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” (Galatians 3:10-11)

We are to live by faith - not by observation of the Law.

By mixing Law and Grace you are not pleasing God. You're basically saying faith isn't enough and the sacrifice of Jesus wasn't sufficient.

Jesus said the law is in place until the heavens and earth disappear. If we sin then it is as if we broke all of the laws. We all sin therefore deserve God's wrath. Jesus paid the price for those who accept the free gift of grace. For by grace we are saved through faith in Jesus. Thus accepting God's gift of grace our punishment is put on Jesus freeing us from the condemnation at judgement time. Woe to those who reject the gift of grace. They will be judged according to the law!!

 

[TMS]

If we love God and love our neighbors we wouldn't need the law spelled out. But as sinners we are naturally selfish so God gave us laws for our safty. When we obey the laws we are not guilty and when we sin we have grace through faith.

 

[calibob]

If we love God and love our neighbors we wouldn't need the law spelled out. But as sinners we are naturally selfish so God gave us laws for our safty. When we obey the laws we are not guilty and when we sin we have grace through faith.

That's the crux of the matter. We lack the love that was freely shared with us. we must love ourselves to love our neighbors. We must have honor, dignity and self respect in order to share honor dignity and respect to others. We must Love God above all. The 1st sign of the Holy Spirit is love/charity without it we are useless.

 

[Budman]

When we obey the laws we are not guilty

No. We are not guilty, nor can we ever be declared guilty, because the blood of Jesus has cleansed us from all sin. We have the very righteousness of Christ imputed to us.

If we can be guilty, we can be condemned, but the Bible says there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (i.e., "born again" believers). Romans 8:1

 

[Endoscopy]

No. We are not guilty, nor can we ever be declared guilty, because the blood of Jesus has cleansed us from all sin. We have the very righteousness of Christ imputed to us.

If we can be guilty, we can be condemned, but the Bible says there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (i.e., "born again" believers). Romans 8:1

Jesus stated the law is in place until the heavens and earth disappear.
If we sin we are guilty of transgressing the law.
God gave us the free gift of grace.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
When we accept the grace through faith in Jesus our sins are imputed to Jesus on the cross.
He paid the penalty for our sins.
Woe to those who reject that grace.

 

[Budman]

Jesus stated the law is in place until the heavens and earth disappear.

For believers, Christ is the end of the Law.

"For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to every one that believeth." (Romans 10:4)

"By abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace." (Ephesians 2:15)

Believers are not under the Law.

"But if you are led of the Spirit, you are not under the Law." (Galatians 5:18)

"I myself (Paul) am not under the Law." (1 Corinthians 9:20)

"But before faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, being locked up until faith should be revealed. Therefore the Law was put in charge to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the Law." (Galatians 3:23-25)

The Law isn't for believers.

"Knowing this, that the Law is not made for a righteous man.." (1 timothy 1:9)

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the Law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14)

"But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that which we were bound, in order for us to serve in newness of the Spirit, and not in oldness of the written code." (Romans 7:6)

For believers, the Law is a curse.

"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, Everyone who does not do everything written in the book of the law is cursed. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. " (Galatians 3:10, 13)

Those who add Law observance to Christianity are fools.

"This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:2-3)

For believers, the Law was erased and nailed to the cross.

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." (Colossians 2:14)

Believers have died to the Law.

"Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God." (Romans 7:4)

Believers are not to go back to the Law.

"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery (The Law)". - Romans 5:1

 

[PS]

Jesus upgraded the law. Enhance your system and download the update into your hearts and minds right now.

1. Repent—Matthew 4:17, Luke 13:3
2. Let not your heart be troubled—John 14:27, John 16:33, Matthew 6:25-26, Philippians 4:6-7
3. Follow me—Matthew 4:19
4. Rejoice—Matthew 5:12, (Also 2 Corinthians 6:10, 12:10, James 1:2-4)
5. Let your light shine—Matthew 5:16
6. Honor God’s law—Matthew 5:17-19
7. Be reconciled—Matthew 5:24-25
8. Do not commit adultery—Matthew 5:27-30
9. Keep your word—Matthew 5:33-37
10. Go the second mile—Matthew 5:38-42
11. Love your enemies—Matthew 5:44
12. Be perfect—Matthew 5:48
13. Practice secret disciplines (giving, praying, fasting)—Matthew 6:1-18
14. Lay up treasures in heaven—Matthew 6:19-21
15. Seek first the kingdom of God—Matthew 6:33
16. Judge not—Matthew 7:1-2
17. Do not throw your pearls to pigs—Matthew 7:6
18. Ask, seek, and knock—Matthew 7:7-8
19. Do unto others—Matthew 7:12
20. Choose the narrow way—Matthew 7:13-14
21. Beware of false prophets—Matthew 7:15
22. Pray for those who spread the word—Matthew 9:37-38
23. Be as shrewd as serpents—Matthew 10:16. (Also Romans 16:19)
24. Fear God. Do not fear man— Matthew 10:28 (Also Luke 12:4-5)
25. Listen to God’s voice—Matthew 11:15, 13:9, 13:43, Mark 4:23, Luke 14:35, 1 Kings 19:11-13
26.Take my yoke—Matthew 11:29
27. Honor your parents—Matthew 15:4
28. Beware of false teaching—Matthew 16:6, 11-12
29. Deny yourself—Luke 9:23 (Also Matthew 10:38 and Mark 8:34)
30. Do not despise little ones—Matthew 18:10
31. Go to Christians who offend you—Matthew 8:15 (Also Galatians 6:1)
32. Forgive offenders—Matthew 18:21-22 (Also Proverbs 19:11)
33. Beware of covetousness—Luke 12:15
34. Honor marriage—Matthew 19:6, 19:9
35. Lead by being a servant—Matthew 20:26-28
36. Make the church a house of prayer for all nations—Mark 11:17
37. Pray in faith—Matthew 21:21-22, John 15:7
38. Bring in the poor—Luke 14:12-14
39. Render unto Caesar—Matthew 22:19-21
40. Love the Lord—Matthew 22:37-38
41. Love your neighbor—Matthew 22:39
42. Be born again—John 3:7
43. Await my return—Matthew 24:42-44
44. Celebrate the Lord’s supper—Matthew 26:26-
45. Watch and pray—Matthew 26:41
46. Keep my commandments—John 14:15
47. Feed my sheep—John 21:15-16
48. Make and baptize disciples—Matthew 28:19
49. Teach disciples to obey—Matthew 28:20
50. Receive God’s power—Luke 24:49

http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Bible/Commands/index.htm

 

[Hevosmies]

Jesus upgraded the law. Enhance your system and download the update into your hearts and minds right now.

1. Repent—Matthew 4:17, Luke 13:3
2. Let not your heart be troubled—John 14:27, John 16:33, Matthew 6:25-26, Philippians 4:6-7
3. Follow me—Matthew 4:19
4. Rejoice—Matthew 5:12, (Also 2 Corinthians 6:10, 12:10, James 1:2-4)
5. Let your light shine—Matthew 5:16
6. Honor God’s law—Matthew 5:17-19
7. Be reconciled—Matthew 5:24-25
8. Do not commit adultery—Matthew 5:27-30
9. Keep your word—Matthew 5:33-37
10. Go the second mile—Matthew 5:38-42
11. Love your enemies—Matthew 5:44
12. Be perfect—Matthew 5:48
13. Practice secret disciplines (giving, praying, fasting)—Matthew 6:1-18
14. Lay up treasures in heaven—Matthew 6:19-21
15. Seek first the kingdom of God—Matthew 6:33
16. Judge not—Matthew 7:1-2
17. Do not throw your pearls to pigs—Matthew 7:6
18. Ask, seek, and knock—Matthew 7:7-8
19. Do unto others—Matthew 7:12
20. Choose the narrow way—Matthew 7:13-14
21. Beware of false prophets—Matthew 7:15
22. Pray for those who spread the word—Matthew 9:37-38
23. Be as shrewd as serpents—Matthew 10:16. (Also Romans 16:19)
24. Fear God. Do not fear man— Matthew 10:28 (Also Luke 12:4-5)
25. Listen to God’s voice—Matthew 11:15, 13:9, 13:43, Mark 4:23, Luke 14:35, 1 Kings 19:11-13
26.Take my yoke—Matthew 11:29
27. Honor your parents—Matthew 15:4
28. Beware of false teaching—Matthew 16:6, 11-12
29. Deny yourself—Luke 9:23 (Also Matthew 10:38 and Mark 8:34)
30. Do not despise little ones—Matthew 18:10
31. Go to Christians who offend you—Matthew 8:15 (Also Galatians 6:1)
32. Forgive offenders—Matthew 18:21-22 (Also Proverbs 19:11)
33. Beware of covetousness—Luke 12:15
34. Honor marriage—Matthew 19:6, 19:9
35. Lead by being a servant—Matthew 20:26-28
36. Make the church a house of prayer for all nations—Mark 11:17
37. Pray in faith—Matthew 21:21-22, John 15:7
38. Bring in the poor—Luke 14:12-14
39. Render unto Caesar—Matthew 22:19-21
40. Love the Lord—Matthew 22:37-38
41. Love your neighbor—Matthew 22:39
42. Be born again—John 3:7
43. Await my return—Matthew 24:42-44
44. Celebrate the Lord’s supper—Matthew 26:26-
45. Watch and pray—Matthew 26:41
46. Keep my commandments—John 14:15
47. Feed my sheep—John 21:15-16
48. Make and baptize disciples—Matthew 28:19
49. Teach disciples to obey—Matthew 28:20
50. Receive God’s power—Luke 24:49

http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Bible/Commands/index.htm

is that a COMPREHENSIVE list of all commandments given during Christ's early ministry? if that is, GREAT JOB compiling it! Can i use this?

 

[PS]

is that a COMPREHENSIVE list of all commandments given during Christ's early ministry? if that is, GREAT JOB compiling it! Can i use this?

It is not my list; but as the Bible is public domain I don't see any problem provided you give the source. I have never seen any more of Christ's commandments myself.

http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Bible/Commands/index.htm