Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

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Tim416

Guest
#241
#241
Grandpa said:
No one was able to obey all the law before God therefore no one was able to be righteous before God by their obedience to the law.

So there is no such thing as "righteousness" of observing the law.

Romans 3:19-20
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
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Scripture plainly states righteousness of obeying the law was in place under the old covenant. Do you not believe what the bible states? Rather than denying what is written in the bible, why not elucidate
on how righteousness of obeying the law could be in place if no one perfectly obeyed it
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#242
#242
Grandpa said:
No one was able to obey all the law before God therefore no one was able to be righteous before God by their obedience to the law.

So there is no such thing as "righteousness" of observing the law.

Romans 3:19-20
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
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BTW
Good to quote the next verse too:


21 But now(now) apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#243
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#243
Tim416 said:
Scripture plainly states righteousness of obeying the law was in place under the old covenant. Do you not believe what the bible states? Rather than denying what is written in the bible, why not elucidate
on how righteousness of obeying the law could be in place if no one perfectly obeyed it
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That's my whole point. Righteousness was available by obedience to the law but NO ONE achieved it.

There was no righteousness if the only righteousness there was was obedience to the law.

There was forgiveness of sin. But no righteousness.

Didn't you read Romans 3 that I just posted??
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#244
#244
Grandpa said:
That's my whole point. Righteousness was available by obedience to the law but NO ONE achieved it.

There was no righteousness if the only righteousness there was was obedience to the law.

There was forgiveness of sin. But no righteousness.

Didn't you read Romans 3 that I just posted??
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Yes, and I added verse 21 to it! Scripture plainly states, as I quoted to you, righteousness under the old covenant was obeying the law. It is very plainly written, as you know. So please tell me how righteousness of obeying the law can be in place if no one perfectly obeyed it?
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#245
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#245
Tim416 said:
Yes, and I added verse 21 to it! Scripture plainly states, as I quoted to you, righteousness under the old covenant was obeying the law. It is very plainly written, as you know. So please tell me how righteousness of obeying the law can be in place if no one perfectly obeyed it?
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NO it doesn't say that.

Verse 21 says that the Righteousness of God has been manifested TOTALLY apart from the law.

Basically, its saying what I have been trying to show you this whole time. There was no righteousness from observing the law. Just like now.

Romans 3:21-23
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;


22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#246
#246
Grandpa said:
NO it doesn't say that.

Verse 21 says that the Righteousness of God has been manifested TOTALLY apart from the law.

Basically, its saying what I have been trying to show you this whole time. There was no righteousness from observing the law. Just like now.

Romans 3:21-23
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;


22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
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And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.’
Deut6:25

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom10:4
 
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Tim416

Guest
#247
#247
Grandpa said:
NO it doesn't say that.

Verse 21 says that the Righteousness of God has been manifested TOTALLY apart from the law.

Basically, its saying what I have been trying to show you this whole time. There was no righteousness from observing the law. Just like now.

Romans 3:21-23
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;


22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
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I wrote:
''I think it is you who cannot see. Under the old covenant they lived under righteousness of observing the law. Did they immediately cast it aside as soon as they transgressed the law/committed sin? According to your thinking they must have done''

You responded:


''Do you have any bible verses to back up your claim of being righteous from observing the law?

Or is that just your personal/church's philosophy?''

Why take issue with my statement they lived under righteousness of obeying the law under the old covenant? I did not say anyone fully obeyed the law did I! I simply pointed out what you should know, they lived under righteousness of obeying the law
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#248
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#248
Tim416 said:
And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.’
Deut6:25

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom10:4
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So even though you know that no one was able to achieve righteousness before God by their obedience to the law you still call it righteousness of observing the law?

You've added Romans 10:4 twice now but it has no bearing on the righteousness of observing the law.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#249
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#249
Tim416 said:
I wrote:
''I think it is you who cannot see. Under the old covenant they lived under righteousness of observing the law. Did they immediately cast it aside as soon as they transgressed the law/committed sin? According to your thinking they must have done''

You responded:


''Do you have any bible verses to back up your claim of being righteous from observing the law?

Or is that just your personal/church's philosophy?''

Why take issue with my statement they lived under righteousness of obeying the law under the old covenant? I did not say anyone fully obeyed the law did I! I simply pointed out what you should know, they lived under righteousness of obeying the law
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They didn't live under any righteousness of obeying the law because they didn't obey it.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#250
#250
Grandpa said:
They didn't live under any righteousness of obeying the law because they didn't obey it.
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You are in a muddle here aren't you. The fact no one fully obeyed the law, did not negate what Moses told the people in the verse quoted, or Paul's view that righteousness of obeying the law ended with Christ.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#251
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#251
Tim416 said:
You are in a muddle here aren't you. The fact no one fully obeyed the law, did not negate what Moses told the people in the verse quoted, or Paul's view that righteousness of obeying the law ended with Christ.
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Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The end (goal) of the law was to bring you to Christ and this is our righteousness.

Paul didn't ever say there was righteousness from obeying the law. He said the opposite. There was no righteousness available from the law.

Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Romans 3:19-20
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#252
#252
Tim416 said:
You are in a muddle here aren't you. The fact no one fully obeyed the law, did not negate what Moses told the people in the verse quoted, or Paul's view that righteousness of obeying the law ended with Christ.
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There is no righteousness by obeying the law. Thats the point, all the law can do is condemn you because you cant keep it. That was its purpose to lead us to christ
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#253
#253
Grandpa said:
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The end (goal) of the law was to bring you to Christ and this is our righteousness.

Paul didn't ever say there was righteousness from obeying the law. He said the opposite. There was no righteousness available from the law.

Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Romans 3:19-20
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Click to expand...
It would be better just to accept what the bible plainly states than to seek to overturn what is plainly written
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#254
#254
And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.’
Deut6:25

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom10:4

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Rom3:21

For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. Rom6:14
 
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Tim416

Guest
#255
#255
Clearly righteousness of obeying the law was in place under the old covenant, the fact no one fully obeyed the law does not change the fact it was in operation. But on the internet, it is not so hard to do gymnastics with the plainly written word
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#256
#256
Tim416 said:
Clearly righteousness of obeying the law was in place under the old covenant, the fact no one fully obeyed the law does not change the fact it was in operation. But on the internet, it is not so hard to do gymnastics with the plainly written word
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No one has ever been righteous by the law, how can you be righteous, when moses himself said the people had confirm and obey ever word, otherwise, they were under a curse.paul understood this when he quoted moses in Gal 3, why can’t others?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#257
#257
Tim416 said:
It would be better just to accept what the bible plainly states than to seek to overturn what is plainly written
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Yes it would, that goes for you also
 
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Tim416

Guest
#258
#258
People seem to find it tough to understand that though no one was righteous under the law, for no one fully obeyed it, under the OC they were still under righteousness of obeying the law. Oh well.
 
WalkingTree

WalkingTree

Active member
#259
Jan 13, 2019
168
100
43
#259
Tim416 said:
People seem to find it tough to understand that though no one was righteous under the law, for no one fully obeyed it, under the OC they were still under righteousness of obeying the law. Oh well.
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God spoke to all the faithful, he instructed them (gave them Laws) in many ways. Moshe seems to be the most detailed of instructions. It was given for a purpose, place and time. “when you enter the land I promised” This Law also spoke of a time when it would be broken, by the people AND by God, because they did not “keep faith” with God and his covenant.

Nothing in the Law is abolished when we state the ‘old’ is completed and the ‘new’ has began. This new was spoken from the beginning. And we are told that this ‘old’ Law given to Moshe in no way nullifies the ‘promise’ given earlier to Abraham.

That EVERYONE who ‘believes’ (has faith in Jesus) would be saved and called children of God. ALL the Law pointed and lead to Jesus the Messiah, and FAITH was at it’s core. Faith in the salvation that comes from God. Not only in a part of the message that commanded a people in a certain time to be a certain way. EVERY yud and stroke of the Law speaks of FAITH in Jesus.

Habakkuk 2:3 For still the vision awaits its appointed time; it hastens to the end–it will not lie. If it seems slow, wait for it; it will surely come; it will not delay.​

The ‘appointed time; it speaks of the end, and does not lie.


2:4
“See, the enemy is puffed up;
his desires are not upright—
but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#260
#260
WalkingTree said:
God spoke to all the faithful, he instructed them (gave them Laws) in many ways. Moshe seems to be the most detailed of instructions. It was given for a purpose, place and time. “when you enter the land I promised” This Law also spoke of a time when it would be broken, by the people AND by God, because they did not “keep faith” with God and his covenant.

Nothing in the Law is abolished when we state the ‘old’ is completed and the ‘new’ has began. This new was spoken from the beginning. And we are told that this ‘old’ Law given to Moshe in no way nullifies the ‘promise’ given earlier to Abraham.

That EVERYONE who ‘believes’ (has faith in Jesus) would be saved and called children of God. ALL the Law pointed and lead to Jesus the Messiah, and FAITH was at it’s core. Faith in the salvation that comes from God. Not only in a part of the message that commanded a people in a certain time to be a certain way. EVERY yud and stroke of the Law speaks of FAITH in Jesus.

Habakkuk 2:3 For still the vision awaits its appointed time; it hastens to the end–it will not lie. If it seems slow, wait for it; it will surely come; it will not delay.​

The ‘appointed time; it speaks of the end, and does not lie.


2:4
“See, the enemy is puffed up;
his desires are not upright—
but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness
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In Acts ch15, they convened a council to decide which laws of Moses Gentiles be asked to follow, four were mentioned. In your view, did the NT church give gentiles a licence to sin?
 
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