This comes to mind:
Art by XernonaEcho called A Rip in the Space Time Continuum
Art by XernonaEcho called A Rip in the Space Time Continuum
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Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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And finally we know its source.
The point is, Salvation is based upon Gods will of purpose, His Eternal Decree, so you are saying Gods will of purpose to save doesnt get accomplished. 2 Tim 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
This isnt about how believers live, but how God saves according to His Sovereign will/purpose.
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
This isnt about how believers live, but how God saves according to His Sovereign will/purpose.
I understand God's will as being tripartite ~
Moral
Permissive
Sovereign
I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. I declare the end from the beginning,
and ancient times from what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will
accomplish.’ I summon a bird of prey from the east, a man for My purpose from a far-off land. Truly I have
spoken, and truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, and I will surely do it. Isaiah 46:9b-11
Isaiah 46:10
~Moral
Permissive
Sovereign
I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. I declare the end from the beginning,
and ancient times from what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will
accomplish.’ I summon a bird of prey from the east, a man for My purpose from a far-off land. Truly I have
spoken, and truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, and I will surely do it. Isaiah 46:9b-11
Isaiah 46:10
Wold it please God to eternally save all mankind? If so, do the scriptures say that he will do it?
If God wills Light to be created, it will be. All inanimate creatures obey His Will completely. That is the sense in which it is said Gods will is done. But as for animate creatures, who have free will, we can choose to obey His Will, or not obey His Will. If we do, we will be saved. If we don't, we won't be. What did Jesus say on that?
Gospel of Matthew Chapter 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
He said the one who both calls Him Lord AND does the will of His Father in Heaven will be saved. This both shows that we have free will and can choose to do the Father's Will, and be saved, by His Grace, or not do that Will, and not be saved, i.e. lose our soul, by our own free choice, and thus culpable/deliberate fault. No one goes to Hell without his own fault. Limited Atonoment makes it God's fault that some go to Hell, and means they never had any possibility of Salvation at all.
Gospel of Matthew Chapter 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
He said the one who both calls Him Lord AND does the will of His Father in Heaven will be saved. This both shows that we have free will and can choose to do the Father's Will, and be saved, by His Grace, or not do that Will, and not be saved, i.e. lose our soul, by our own free choice, and thus culpable/deliberate fault. No one goes to Hell without his own fault. Limited Atonoment makes it God's fault that some go to Hell, and means they never had any possibility of Salvation at all.
Very unlikely that is the meaning of the passage. Yet even if that were so, in that case, someone who doesn't enter the Kingdom on Earth will not enter it in Heaven either.
Question: why did Jesus Christ command His disciples, along with asking for our Daily Bread, to Pray: "Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done" to the Eternal Father?
Because, we are not inanimate stones which God just wills to go here and there and it does. We have free will, and wih that free will, we must choose to serve the Lord.
When Joshua says, choose this day whom you will serve, and as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. He is showing we must choose to serve the Lord, and we'll be saved if we choose to do that. We won't be saved if we choose not to.
Question: why did Jesus Christ command His disciples, along with asking for our Daily Bread, to Pray: "Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done" to the Eternal Father?
Because, we are not inanimate stones which God just wills to go here and there and it does. We have free will, and wih that free will, we must choose to serve the Lord.
When Joshua says, choose this day whom you will serve, and as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. He is showing we must choose to serve the Lord, and we'll be saved if we choose to do that. We won't be saved if we choose not to.
Whenever a few verses in Paul, or rather your interpretation of them, on "election" etc, appear to contradict the entire history of Salvation including many things the Lord told the people of Israel Himself about choosing life, that they and their descendants may live etc, and Jesus said, about doing the Will of the Father, and so going to Heaven, then remember what Peter said about Paul's Epistles - they have many things in them difficult to understand:
2 Pet 3:16:
"He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
Btw, I'm not saying anyone here is going "to their own destruction" or anything. I'm saying, be careful, because some things in Paul's Epistles are "hard to understand" which appears to be said of Paul's Epistles alone. So be careful with them.
2 Pet 3:16:
"He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
Btw, I'm not saying anyone here is going "to their own destruction" or anything. I'm saying, be careful, because some things in Paul's Epistles are "hard to understand" which appears to be said of Paul's Epistles alone. So be careful with them.
See Gods purpose for some of mankind isnt Salvation, but He appointed them to wrath, Christ didnt die for them. Paul intimates that here 1 Thess 5:9-10
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
This implies that God has appointed some to wrath, and Christ didn't die for them. That would be contradiction in God.
The us whom God didnt appoint to wrath, and who Christ died for, are mentioned in this same letter in Chapter 1:4-5
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
This implies that God has appointed some to wrath, and Christ didn't die for them. That would be contradiction in God.
The us whom God didnt appoint to wrath, and who Christ died for, are mentioned in this same letter in Chapter 1:4-5
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
Yup, always a misunderstanding of Paul's Epistles alone.
But let's refute the misinterpretation from Paul himself.
So why does wrath come? Because God just arbitrarily damns some?
Not at all. It is clearly explained by Paul in multiple places.
Ephesians 5:6
5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.
Hence, the Wrath of God comes only because of immorality, impurity, greed etc. Not because God arbitrarily condemned anyone without their own fault.
Colossians 3:6
5Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.
Again, the Wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience which means, in theological terms, the reprobation of God is consequent to their disobedience.
I guess Calvinists will understand those terms: in simple language, it means no one goes to hell unless he does one of these damnable or deadly sins in willful disobedience which God has commanded us to avoid.
But let's refute the misinterpretation from Paul himself.
So why does wrath come? Because God just arbitrarily damns some?
Not at all. It is clearly explained by Paul in multiple places.
Ephesians 5:6
5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.
Hence, the Wrath of God comes only because of immorality, impurity, greed etc. Not because God arbitrarily condemned anyone without their own fault.
Colossians 3:6
5Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.
Again, the Wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience which means, in theological terms, the reprobation of God is consequent to their disobedience.
I guess Calvinists will understand those terms: in simple language, it means no one goes to hell unless he does one of these damnable or deadly sins in willful disobedience which God has commanded us to avoid.
Wrath comes upon the non elect for their sins since Christ didn't die for them and propitiate God on their behalf. Their reprobation is justly because of their disobedience, however their disobedience was appointed by God 1 Pet 2:8
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
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I will grant you, that God gave mankind the freedom to choose out the life he wants to live as he sojourns here on earth, but when it comes to his eternal destiny, That is by God's sovereign grace, (Eph 2:1-5), without mankind's choice. (John 17:2 ) (Acts 13:48)
Because God gave mankind the freedom to choose, we should all have gone to hell. It was not God's fault that all of mankind did not seek him (Psalms 53:2). That is why God adopted a larger portion of mankind to be his children, according to the good pleasure of his will (Eph 1:5). (Eph 2:1-5). We do not know why it was his good pleasure to not choose all of mankind (Rom 9:21).
Your theory of God wanting to deliver all of mankind to eternal heaven, belittles God's power to do his will (Dan 4:35).
Thanks for the caution, I think that we all should take caution to harmonize the scriptures that they do not contradict each other.
I have learned that there are several words that have different meanings in the scriptures, such as the salvation scriptures meaning "deliverance" and the following words having dual meanings; World, life, Israel, death, etc.
World: There is a world that God loves, and there is a world that God hates
Life: There is an eternal life, and there is an abundant, and joyful life, here on earth, (Duet 30:19) that God's children can enjoy by the choices that they make.
Israel: Rom 9::6, Not all Israel is of Israel. Gen 32:28, Jacob/Israel Zeph 3:11:13, House of Israel, and remnant of Israel.
Deut 30:19, Death=separation from God's fellowship, Life lived abundantly on earth for God's obedient children.
2 Pet 16 - There are several scriptures proclaiming how hard it is for some to understand, some being well educated, but not having a knowledge of the scriptures, who misinterpret them. Mark 4:11, Rom 11:25, 1 Cor 2:7-8, Luke 10:21.
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@XavierJesusLovesIndia is a Thomist/Augustinian Catholic if I’m not mistaken. Been reading about Thomas Aquinas for days, apparently an amazing fella. Made note of a book written by Joseph Wawrykow called Gods grace and human action, in which Joseph chronicles the evolution of Aquinas’ soteriology. May be a good read if I ever get around to it.
I will note the article states Aquinas’ view did begin as semi-pelagian, eventually becoming “more” Augustinian.
I will note the article states Aquinas’ view did begin as semi-pelagian, eventually becoming “more” Augustinian.