Does baptismal regeneration violate the core teaching of justification by faith alone (sola fide)?

[UnitedWithChrist]

 

[FlyingDove]

The question is simple...is it faith that saves, or is it baptism that saves? Is a person saved at the point of baptism, or is he saved at the point of faith?

And, what Scriptures would you use to support your view?

OP question: Does baptismal regeneration violate the core teaching of justification by faith alone (sola fide)? Short answer, No.

Baptismal regeneration is when Christ baptizes with His indwelling Holy Spirit.

Spiritual baptism is ""preformed without hands"" by Christ alone. And is received thru Faith & faith alone.

Acts 1:
5 John truly baptized with water; but ye shall soon be baptized with the "Holy Spirit"
(NOTE: John the Baptist taught Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11, Mark 1:1-8 & Luke 3:16)

1 Cor 12:13 (A) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,
(NOTE: By 1 Spirit/Christ's, all believer's are baptized (spiritually) into 1 body/Body of Christ. King James translators capitalized SPIRIT identifying the baptizers deity)

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision ""made without hands"" in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
(NOTE: The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a SPIRITUAL circumcision/covenant done without hands. Only Christ can baptize (spiritually done/without hands) with the indwelling Holy Spirit)

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(NOTE: God's truly chosen people undergo a Spiritual circumcision/baptism. Christ alone can preform this sealing action (Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22 & Eph 4:30)

Deut 30:6 (A) The LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart.

All have sinned (Rom 3:23). The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom 6:23)
(NOTE: We all deserve heavens sentence for the crime of sin = DEATH. However, when we believe/place our faith in Jesus sin payment & resurrection. Christ seal us with His indwelling Holy Spirit. (Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22 & Eph 4:30). Our spiritual sealing is Christ's guarantee of our future resurrection onto eternal life with Him.)

KJV Dictionary Definition: TAB'ERNACLE, n. L. To dwell; to reside; to be housed; as we say, Christ tabernacled in the flesh Jn 1:14.
It is also applied to the temple. Ps.15.
A place of worship; a sacred place.
Our natural body. 2 Cor.5. 2 Pet. 1.
God's gracious presence, Rev.21.

NOTE: Ex 40:34 & 2 Chron 5:13-14 are shadows of the Lord filling us with His presents/glory/Spirit

Exodus 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

2 Chronicles 5:
13 (B) when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets, cymbals, instruments of musick & praised the LORD, saying, he is good; his mercy endureth forever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;

14 (B) the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

NOTE: Acts 2:4 Jews on the Temple Mt 1st post resurrection Pentecost. Receive the promise (Lk 24:49, Jn 7:38-39, Acts 2:33) of God's, eternally sealing/saving, indwelling presents/glory/Spirit.

Acts 2:4 (A) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,

NOTE: Acts 10:45-45, 11:15,16,17. Seven years later gentiles are given/receive the promise (Lk 24:49, Jn 7:38-39, Acts 2:33) of God's, eternally sealing/saving, indwelling presents/glory/Spirit.

Acts 10:
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
18 (C) they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Emblem = A symbolic representation of a particular quality or concept:

Water baptism is an emblem: An outwardly visible expression of our indwelling Spiritual Baptism. (1 Cor 3:16, 6:19, 2 Cor 6:16, 2 Tim 1:14, Gal 4:6, Rom 8:9,11,15).

The Lord implemented two ordinances water baptism & the Lords supper. After conversion/receiving the Lords indwelling Holy Spirit, every believer should partake in both.

 

[Washed]

Free-willers claim that faith and repentance must be dredged out of an unsaved person's heart of stone.

Reformed people are convicted that faith and repentance is the fruit of the heart of flesh, which God gives to the elect, and the man with a stony heart cannot produce it.

Which one sounds more coherent?

By the way, my conviction is that repentance and faith happens almost at the same instant as regeneration, with the regeneration producing the faith and repentance, therefore logically repentance must precede faith and repentance.

This view gives ALL the credit to God, and NONE to the man. This is much more God-honoring. There is absolutely no room for boasting in the Reformed conviction.

Didn't we already have this discussion on another thread?

I'm glad to have it here, too, but I think that might get pretty old.

By the way, all folks have to do is read my signature and they will know what my conviction on that issue. I've only said the same things about 500 times here. I am convicted that decisional regeneration is absurd, whether it's the majority position or not.

You are not explaining the verse. All you are doing is stating what you believe, what is "coherent" to you according to your Calvinist understanding. The Bible does not say that regeneration produces faith.

Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

People are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit (they become born again) after (or when) they believe the word of truth after (or when) they hear it. People have to hear the Gospel before they can choose to believe it or not. If they hear it and believe it, they are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You are not explaining the verse. All you are doing is stating what you believe, what is "coherent" to you according to your Calvinist understanding. The Bible does not say that regeneration produces faith.

Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

People are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit (they become born again) after (or when) they believe the word of truth after (or when) they hear it. People have to hear the Gospel before they can choose to believe it or not. If they hear it and believe it, they are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It is your claim that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is the same as regeneration.

I reject that claim. They are two related works of the Holy Spirit but are not the same work.

First, the Holy Spirit regenerates the person, giving him a new nature, a heart of flesh. As a fallen son of Adam, he has a heart of stone, which is not receptive to God. This regeneration produces faith and repentance. He is then sealed with the Holy Spirit.

This is different than the free-willer view which claims that the fallen man can dredge up faith and repentance from his heart of stone. He expresses this faith and repentance. He is then regenerated, or given spiritual life, in your worldview.

As I have told you, I do not agree with your worldview. It basically allows for boastfulness and pride, and dishonors God by failing to give him the honor and gratitude due to him for saving helpless sinners.

And, it gives too much credit to the sinner and his fallen nature.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

OP question: Does baptismal regeneration violate the core teaching of justification by faith alone (sola fide)? Short answer, No.

Baptismal regeneration is when Christ baptizes with His indwelling Holy Spirit.

Spiritual baptism is ""preformed without hands"" by Christ alone. And is received thru Faith & faith alone.

Acts 1:
5 John truly baptized with water; but ye shall soon be baptized with the "Holy Spirit"
(NOTE: John the Baptist taught Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11, Mark 1:1-8 & Luke 3:16)

1 Cor 12:13 (A) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,
(NOTE: By 1 Spirit/Christ's, all believer's are baptized (spiritually) into 1 body/Body of Christ. King James translators capitalized SPIRIT identifying the baptizers deity)

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision ""made without hands"" in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
(NOTE: The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a SPIRITUAL circumcision/covenant done without hands. Only Christ can baptize (spiritually done/without hands) with the indwelling Holy Spirit)

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(NOTE: God's truly chosen people undergo a Spiritual circumcision/baptism. Christ alone can preform this sealing action (Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22 & Eph 4:30)

Deut 30:6 (A) The LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart.

All have sinned (Rom 3:23). The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom 6:23)
(NOTE: We all deserve heavens sentence for the crime of sin = DEATH. However, when we believe/place our faith in Jesus sin payment & resurrection. Christ seal us with His indwelling Holy Spirit. (Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22 & Eph 4:30). Our spiritual sealing is Christ's guarantee of our future resurrection onto eternal life with Him.)

KJV Dictionary Definition: TAB'ERNACLE, n. L. To dwell; to reside; to be housed; as we say, Christ tabernacled in the flesh Jn 1:14.
It is also applied to the temple. Ps.15.
A place of worship; a sacred place.
Our natural body. 2 Cor.5. 2 Pet. 1.
God's gracious presence, Rev.21.

NOTE: Ex 40:34 & 2 Chron 5:13-14 are shadows of the Lord filling us with His presents/glory/Spirit

Exodus 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

2 Chronicles 5:
13 (B) when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets, cymbals, instruments of musick & praised the LORD, saying, he is good; his mercy endureth forever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;

14 (B) the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

NOTE: Acts 2:4 Jews on the Temple Mt 1st post resurrection Pentecost. Receive the promise (Lk 24:49, Jn 7:38-39, Acts 2:33) of God's, eternally sealing/saving, indwelling presents/glory/Spirit.

Acts 2:4 (A) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,

NOTE: Acts 10:45-45, 11:15,16,17. Seven years later gentiles are given/receive the promise (Lk 24:49, Jn 7:38-39, Acts 2:33) of God's, eternally sealing/saving, indwelling presents/glory/Spirit.

Acts 10:
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
18 (C) they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Emblem = A symbolic representation of a particular quality or concept:

Water baptism is an emblem: An outwardly visible expression of our indwelling Spiritual Baptism. (1 Cor 3:16, 6:19, 2 Cor 6:16, 2 Tim 1:14, Gal 4:6, Rom 8:9,11,15).

The Lord implemented two ordinances water baptism & the Lords supper. After conversion/receiving the Lords indwelling Holy Spirit, every believer should partake in both.

The term "baptismal regeneration" relates to those who believe water baptism is when regeneration occurs.

Therefore, baptismal regenerationists think that the person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit when they are water baptized.

My assertion, as the original poster, is that the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration violates the evangelical teaching of justification by faith alone, because in their worldview, water baptism causes regeneration. So, it is a work that is added in order to achieve salvation.

However, it sounds like you are trying to re-define baptismal regeneration to being baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ. This isn't the definition of baptismal regeneration. While I agree with you that regeneration is a baptism by the Holy Spirit into Christ, that isn't what theologians mean by "baptismal regeneration". They are talking about a doctrine taught by certain aberrant groups within Christianity (some Church of Christ groups and Roman Catholicism comes to mind) that claims regeneration occurs at the point of water baptism.

Here's an article that defines baptismal regeneration in a clear manner.

https://www.gotquestions.org/baptismal-regeneration.html

 

[EternalFire]

Ephesians 1:13 and Acts 10.

Acts 10 clearly says that the family of Cornelius was already regenerated prior to their water baptism.

Ephesians 1:13 indicates that regeneration happens at the moment of faith, not baptism.

These verses say nothing of a "previous baptism of our spirit."

 

[EternalFire]

It would take a long time to give a full answer because the word symbol isn't used, but by studying the Greek one can identify the figures of speech used in the verses about baptism. For example, in 1 Cor 12:13 we find what's called a "structural metaphor";
"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit." The body is not the physical water that another believer baptizes you into. And you don't drink the water either. But.... this physical water represent (symbolizes) the Living Water, who is the Holy Spirit. The "body" is referring to the body of Christ, who is a spiritual temple made of living stones (1 Pet 2:5). So when you are saved, you are literally baptized into the spiritual house of God, making your body now a piece of the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Justification is the moment that you believe in Jesus through Faith....The Holy Spirit baptizes you into Jesus. You are at that point "in Christ".

On a less technical point, consider this:
Jesus said "if you love me, you will obey my commandments"
-we can't love God until we are born again (1 John 4:7)
-baptism is a command (Acts 2:38)
-we can't obey His commands unless we love Him (John 14:15)

To Conclude all this:

"Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”
-Acts 10:47

Can you find Jesus telling us that the Holy Spirit is going to baptize?

 

[EternalFire]

I'll go with what the bible teaches. If you cannot articulate your points without a movie you are disappointing as a workman that needeth not be ashamed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Romans 13:11
"And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed."

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

These verses say nothing of a "previous baptism of our spirit."

Read them more carefully.

Cornelius' family was already given the Spirit and was speaking in tongues as a sign of salvation.

Ephesians 1:13 teaches that the sealing of the Holy Spirit had already occurred after faith, and doesn't mention baptism. Certainly regeneration also occurred by then.

Do you believe in baptismal regeneration then?

I used to believe something like baptismal regeneration. But, in reality, I was saved when God regenerated me and showed me my sinfulness, and I placed my faith in Jesus Christ.

However, during the four months it took before I was baptized, I wondered what would happen if I died before I got dunked in water.

Answer: nothing..because I was already a believer. I was believing the false teachings of a cult.

 

[mailmandan]

Can you find Jesus telling us that the Holy Spirit is going to baptize?

Do you believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Matthew 3:11 - As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 11:16 - And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit
we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You are not explaining the verse. All you are doing is stating what you believe, what is "coherent" to you according to your Calvinist understanding. The Bible does not say that regeneration produces faith.

Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

People are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit (they become born again) after (or when) they believe the word of truth after (or when) they hear it. People have to hear the Gospel before they can choose to believe it or not. If they hear it and believe it, they are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Again, you are claiming regeneration is the same thing as being sealed with the Holy Spirit. They are two separate actions of the Holy Spirit.

I don't agree with the free-willer theology which claims that a spiritually dead man must produce faith and repentance from his heart of stone, and only afterwards does he receive a heart of flesh.

He lacks the spiritual equipment to respond to God until he receives this heart of flesh.

Perhaps this meme will help you conceptually.

 

[Diakonos]

Can you find Jesus telling us that the Holy Spirit is going to baptize?

In post #102 I described the 3 baptism, are you asking about the first one or the third one?

 

[EternalFire]

Read them more carefully.

Cornelius' family was already given the Spirit and was speaking in tongues as a sign of salvation.

Ephesians 1:13 teaches that the sealing of the Holy Spirit had already occurred after faith, and doesn't mention baptism. Certainly regeneration also occurred by then.

Do you believe in baptismal regeneration then?

I used to believe something like baptismal regeneration. But, in reality, I was saved when God regenerated me and showed me my sinfulness, and I placed my faith in Jesus Christ.

However, during the four months it took before I was baptized, I wondered what would happen if I died before I got dunked in water.

Answer: nothing..because I was already a believer. I was believing the false teachings of a cult.

David Pawson offers an excellent summary of water baptism. I believe it's part of the way of salvation (Ac 16:16-34).

 

[EternalFire]

In post #102 I described the 3 baptism, are you asking about the first one or the third one?

I am asking you to show scriptural support for Jesus saying that the Holy Spirit will perform a baptism. For example, Jesus tells us that the Holy Spirit will convict the world concerning sin (Jn 16:8) and will guide us into all truth (Jn 16:13).

 

[EternalFire]

Do you believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Matthew 3:11 - As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 11:16 - And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit
we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

I absolutely believe that Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Does Jesus tell us that the Holy Spirit is going to baptize?

 

[mailmandan]

I absolutely believe that Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Does Jesus tell us that the Holy Spirit is going to baptize?

Does that really matter? John the Baptist said Jesus is going to baptize us with the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11) which was also mentioned in Acts 11:16 and in 1 Corinthians 12:13, Paul said baptized by one Spirit into one body.. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is passive during this?

 

[Washed]

It is your claim that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is the same as regeneration.

That is correct.

I reject that claim. They are two related works of the Holy Spirit but are not the same work.

You are free to reject/believe what you like.

First, the Holy Spirit regenerates the person, giving him a new nature, a heart of flesh. As a fallen son of Adam, he has a heart of stone, which is not receptive to God. This regeneration produces faith and repentance. He is then sealed with the Holy Spirit.

There is nothing in the Bible that says regeneration produces faith. There is nothing in the Bible that states God must intervene in a person's life, that the person must be regenerated before he can choose to believe the Gospel.

This is different than the free-willer view which claims that the fallen man can dredge up faith and repentance from his heart of stone. He expresses this faith and repentance. He is then regenerated, or given spiritual life, in your worldview.

That is the Biblical view.

As I have told you, I do not agree with your worldview. It basically allows for boastfulness and pride, and dishonors God by failing to give him the honor and gratitude due to him for saving helpless sinners.

All the glory goes to God for making salvation available by faith.

And, it gives too much credit to the sinner and his fallen nature.

Calvinism grossly overstates the power of the fallen nature of mankind.

 

[notuptome]

Calvinism grossly overstates the power of the fallen nature of mankind.

Not as much as it underestimates the power of Gods word. God does what they say cannot be done.

Gods love restrains His perfect justice to draw men to His Son to save them by grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Diakonos]

In post #102 I described the 3 baptism, are you asking about the first one or the third one?

Jesus did not, but Paul did in 1 Cor 13. He explains that we are placed into the body of Christ because the Spirit has baptized us into Christ (His body).
"by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body"

 

[EternalFire]

Does that really matter? John the Baptist said Jesus is going to baptize us with the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11) which was also mentioned in Acts 11:16 and in 1 Corinthians 12:13, Paul said baptized by one Spirit into one body.. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is passive during this?

Of course it matters, as people are basing doctrine and their theology on the Holy Spirit baptizing. So I assume by your response, that you can't find Jesus telling us that the Holy Spirit baptizes. Can you find any scriptural evidence of Peter, John, or James telling us that the Holy Spirit baptizes?