Does baptismal regeneration violate the core teaching of justification by faith alone (sola fide)?

[Diakonos]

Why, then, did Paul baptize people?

Because Jesus commanded believers to do it. It draws out faith to begin your life of whitnessing by first doing it in front of your congregation. Its also a way of initiation. Its similar to communion and the laying on of hands. Its beautiful, and engages the senses. It's a symbolic continuation of the Jewish mikvah....and it represent the initial spiritual baptism that happened when that person believed.
To the thief on the cross, Jesus said "today, you will be with me in paradise"....no opportunity for a baptism there. He literally had NO opportunity to DO any work, he only believed . And to the paralytic, he said "child, your sins are forgiven"...no baptism, only belief

 

[Blain]

Because Jesus commanded believers to do it. It draws out faith to begin your life of whitnessing by first doing it in front of your congregation. Its also a way of initiation. Its similar to communion and the laying on of hands. Its beautiful, and engages the senses. It's a symbolic continuation of the Jewish mikvah....and it represent the initial spiritual baptism that happened when that person believed.
To the thief on the cross, Jesus said "today, you will be with me in paradise"....no opportunity for a baptism there. He literally had NO opportunity to DO any work, he only believed

That was wonderfully explained Might I also add it represents the birth of the believer like how we were in water in the womb and came out of the water in being born

 

[Guojing]

Ah, I see that this concerns the misunderstanding of equating being born again to salvation, when in fact it is simply the beginning.

You mean you hold the doctrine where one is born again when he puts his faith in Jesus's DBR, but you need works to be saved at the end of your life?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

So you do agree with me that God already knew Israel would reject the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Same for everyone else, God setting Israel aside and going to the Gentiles was NOT a Plan B.

That's not what guys like CI Scofield taught, though. He believed Israel could have accepted the Messiah, and that the salvation of the Gentiles was only fortuitous.

Again, research the "postponement theory". It is a prominent teaching with some dispensationalists today. Dispensationalism is actually a moving target, with some of every era in the current era. That's what makes it hard to discuss here. It's like nailing jello to the wall.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Well, it's good to see at this point that virtually no one believes in baptismal regeneration. I didn't think there would be many, but it is a belief that is held by some groups, including the cult I came from.

Primitive Church of Christ (Campbellites) also hold this view. I think some more modern Church of Christ congregations have developed their explanations more than the Campbellites, though.

 

[Guojing]

That's not what guys like CI Scofield taught, though. He believed Israel could have accepted the Messiah, and that the salvation of the Gentiles was only fortuitous.

Again, research the "postponement theory". It is a prominent teaching with some dispensationalists today. Dispensationalism is actually a moving target, with some of every era in the current era. That's what makes it hard to discuss here. It's like nailing jello to the wall.

In the first place, one can be a dispensationalist without even knowing who is Scofield. He is not necessary.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

In the first place, one can be a dispensationalist without even knowing who is Scofield. He is not necessary.

I'll agree with you but he systematized the theology at some level. However, Lewis Sperry Chafer was likely more important in this regard. He came along later and "cleaned up" some of Scofield's more radical views.

Anyways, your point is well taken, but if you read my words, I admitted that there are multiple dispensationalist schools of thought. That is why it's hard to address their theology.

The different generations might look like this:

John Nelson Darby
CI Scofield
Lewis Sperry Chafer (who corrected Scofield's weirdest things)
Charles Ryrie
"progressive dispensationalists"

These would be the major "buckets" or eras of dispensationalism.

I will agree with you, though..you can be a dispensationalist without ever reading Scofield.

I find myself in the same situation with Reformed theology. I haven't read a single book of John Calvin, but the accusation will often be that I am a Calvinist. I understood much of Reformed theology before I knew about the Reformation, and long before I was aware of John Calvin.

 

[EternalFire]

You mean you hold the doctrine where one is born again when he puts his faith in Jesus's DBR, but you need works to be saved at the end of your life?

This is the most biblical summary of salvation that I've ever heard. It's the first in a seven-part series by David Pawson titled The Key Steps to Becoming a Christian.

 

[EternalFire]

Because Jesus commanded believers to do it. It draws out faith to begin your life of whitnessing by first doing it in front of your congregation. Its also a way of initiation. Its similar to communion and the laying on of hands. Its beautiful, and engages the senses. It's a symbolic continuation of the Jewish mikvah....and it represent the initial spiritual baptism that happened when that person believed.
To the thief on the cross, Jesus said "today, you will be with me in paradise"....no opportunity for a baptism there. He literally had NO opportunity to DO any work, he only believed . And to the paralytic, he said "child, your sins are forgiven"...no baptism, only belief

I'm so glad we serve a God who sometimes permits exceptions to the general rule. Without water baptism, how else would we be baptized into Christ's death? (Romans 6:1-11).

 

[Diakonos]

I'm so glad we serve a God who sometimes permits exceptions to the general rule. Without water baptism, how else would we be baptized into Christ's death? (Romans 6:1-11).

There are 3 baptisms.
1. (salvation) The Holy Spirit baptized you into (Christ)
2. (obedience) Water baptism ( another believer baptized you to symbolize the baptism that already happened internally (#1))
3. (empowering) (Christ baptizes you with the Holy Spirit)

Number 2 and 3 sometimes happen simultaneously or in different orders, as we see that from the book of Acts. There no "cookie-cutter" way that Christ baptizes people with His Spirit.

 

[EternalFire]

There are 3 baptisms.
1. (salvation) The Holy Spirit baptized you into (Christ)
2. (obedience) Water baptism ( another believer baptized you to symbolize the baptism that already happened internally (#1))
3. (empowering) (Christ baptizes you with the Holy Spirit)

Number 2 and 3 sometimes happen simultaneously or in different orders, as we see that from the book of Acts. There no "cookie-cutter" way that Christ baptizes people with His Spirit.

This is not an answer to my question.

 

[Diakonos]

This is not an answer to my question.

It seems like you're confusing 2 of the baptisms as the same event.
Let me know what verses you're referring to to make sure we know which of the baptisms are being asked about

 

[tourist]

I view it to be a serious matter to claim one is speaking for God, and if I'm not mistaken, this is commonplace in the charismatic world.

I view it as nothing less than taking God's name in vain. If someone claims that God gave them a prophecy, and they didn't, then they are taking God's name in vain. If they speak in tongues, and it isn't really coming from God, they are taking God's name in vain. If someone interprets tongues, and they don't interpret them properly, they are taking God's name in vain.

I fully concur with your estimate in this regards.

 

[EternalFire]

It seems like you're confusing 2 of the baptisms as the same event.
Let me know what verses you're referring to to make sure we know which of the baptisms are being asked about

Without water baptism, how else would we be baptized into Christ's death? (Romans 6:1-11).

 

[Nehemiah6]

Without water baptism, how else would we be baptized into Christ's death? (Romans 6:1-11).

Water baptism symbolically shows that the believer has been baptized into Christ's death, and also been raised with Him. The spiritual reality is internal, and the Holy Spirit enables the believer to crucify the flesh.

 

[Dave-L]

The steps to salvation. 1) God gives a person of his choosing a new heart. 2) within seconds or even years the person hears the gospel and believes. (A born-again infant or those in a comma who die never hearing the gospel are saved too). 3) The speaker tells believers to repent and be baptized as proof of their faith. 4) those born-again live holy lives because of their new nature. They will always repent because of their new nature, even from back-slides and will overcome all sin.

 

[Washed]

The steps to salvation. 1) God gives a person of his choosing a new heart.

Not true. Salvation is not a lottery. God wants all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). The new heart comes when people hear the gospel and decide to believe it.

2) within seconds or even years the person hears the gospel and believes.

And when the person decides to believe, he is given the gift of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13).

(A born-again infant or those in a comma who die never hearing the gospel are saved too).

Not true. No infant is born again. People become born again when they hear the gospel and decide to believe it. Infants are not capable of doing this. People who die never hearing the gospel will be judged for salvation based on their works (Rev 20:12).

3) The speaker tells believers to repent and be baptized as proof of their faith.

Some do, some do not.

4) those born-again live holy lives because of their new nature. They will always repent because of their new nature, even from back-slides and will overcome all sin.

Some do, some do not.

Calvinism is a false theology.

 

[Dave-L]

Not true. Salvation is not a lottery. God wants all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). The new heart comes when people hear the gospel and decide to believe it.


And when the person decides to believe, he is given the gift of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13).


Not true. No infant is born again. People become born again when they hear the gospel and decide to believe it. Infants are not capable of doing this. People who die never hearing the gospel will be judged for salvation based on their works (Rev 20:12).


Some do, some do not.


Some do, some do not.

Calvinism is a false theology.

You don't understand salvation according to the scriptures. You start by assuming the gospel is law and grace is works. This is because you read free will into the NT scriptures. In effect, you remove people from the position where salvation happens. When you have nothing left to trust in, but God. Until then you will trust in free will and your use of it to save you.

 

[Washed]

You don't understand salvation according to the scriptures. You start by assuming the gospel is law and grace is works. This is because you read free will into the NT scriptures. In effect, you remove people from the position where salvation happens. When you have nothing left to trust in, but God. Until then you will trust in free will and your use of it to save you.

If Calvinism were true, it would not be possible to "remove people from the position where salvation happens."

God saves people who choose to believe the Gospel.

 

[Dave-L]

If Calvinism were true, it would not be possible to "remove people from the position where salvation happens."

God saves people who choose to believe the Gospel.

If you choose to save yourself, God is not the savior, you are. Via self-righteousness.