Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[eternally-gratefull]

God hardened Pharaoh's heart

[Exo 10:20 KJV] 20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

Yep

And pharaoh hardened his own heart

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said.


Exodus 8:32
But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go

Exodus 9:34
And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants

 

[Icedaisey]

The point of the verse wasn't to tell them to keep preaching. It was a description of their spiritual state to edify those whom God does give spiritual eyes, ears and perception to.

the passage I quoted, John 12:40, was actually the fulfillment of Esaias prophecy. The word hardened in John 12:40 was written in Greek not Hebrew :

pōroō (Key)
Pronunciation
po-ro'-o

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
Apparently from poros (a kind of stone)
Greek Inflections of πωρόω [?]
mGNT
5x in 5 unique form(s) TR
5x in 5 unique form(s) LXX
1x in 1 unique form(s)
ἐπωρώθη — 1x
ἐπωρώθησαν — 1x
πεπώρωκεν — 1x
πεπωρωμένη — 1x
πεπωρωμένην — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 5:1025,816
KJV Translation Count — Total: 5x
The KJV translates Strong's G4456 in the following manner: harden (3x), blind (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to cover with a thick skin, to harden by covering with a callus
2. metaph.
   1. to make the heart dull
   2. to grow hard, callous, become dull, lose the power of understanding

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
πωρόω pōróō, po-ro'-o; apparently from πῶρος pōros (a kind of stone); to petrify, i.e. (figuratively) to indurate (render stupid or callous):—blind, harden.

why this word so important to you?

Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.


I think the parable of the vine makes for an excellent example of both God's predestination of all things, (the branches do not choose to be grafted onto the vine). And also the parable demonstrates how the Gentiles are counted among God's Elect and why.

The parable of the potter is also relevant.

Romans 9

God’s Sovereign Choice
(Genesis 25:19–28; Malachi 1:1–5)

6It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”b 8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring. 9For this is what the promise stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”c

10Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. 11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls, ...
(Skipped verses)
16 So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”g 18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— 24including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles? 25As He says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people,

and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,”i

26and,“It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,

‘You are not My people,’

they will be called

‘sons of the living God.’ ”j

 

[rogerg]

And pharaoh hardened his own heart

But only because of God's will that it be hardened, as the LORD had said. There was never a chance that it wouldn't be - so who really was the cause, God or pharaoh?

 

[Icedaisey]

But only because of God's will that it be hardened, as the LORD had said. There was never a chance that it wouldn't be - so who really was the cause, God or pharaoh?

God. Just as he said in his word.

 

[Icedaisey]

FreeGrace2 said:
To be clear, James 2:19 isn't about demons believing that God exists. Of course they do. He created them and they lived in heaven until the rebelled and joined Satan's rebellion.

2:19 is about monotheism, which was uniquely a Jewish belief; that God is One. But, the demons didn't take that on faith, but rather because they experienced it.

It's a real shame that so many pastors and Bible teaches use James 2:19 to make unbiblical comments about the "faith of demons" that doesn't save. Not even in the ballpark.

Gee. I didn't mean to confuse you.

But, I wonder if you understood my point at all. Many pastors/teachers use James 2:19 as an example of a "faith" that doesn't save, which is the "faith of demons".

In the first place, there is NO mention of "faith of demons" anyway. James was pointing out that demons believe (know) that "God is One". They KNOW because they experienced it in heaven before they rebelled.


Do you have a comment or point to make about this, or an explanation of something?

FreeGrace2 said:
To be clear, James 2:19 isn't about demons believing that God exists. Of course they do. He created them and they lived in heaven until the rebelled and joined Satan's rebellion.

2:19 is about monotheism, which was uniquely a Jewish belief; that God is One. But, the demons didn't take that on faith, but rather because they experienced it.

It's a real shame that so many pastors and Bible teaches use James 2:19 to make unbiblical comments about the "faith of demons" that doesn't save. Not even in the ballpark.

Gee. I didn't mean to confuse you.

But, I wonder if you understood my point at all. Many pastors/teachers use James 2:19 as an example of a "faith" that doesn't save, which is the "faith of demons".

In the first place, there is NO mention of "faith of demons" anyway. James was pointing out that demons believe (know) that "God is One". They KNOW because they experienced it in heaven before they rebelled.


Do you have a comment or point to make about this, or an explanation of something?

No worries, you didn't confuse me.
I merely asked you a question regarding your statement .

 

[rayzor]

Icedaisey maybe they joined him,but it does say they where drag down by the devil tail, I suppose he lied to them.I'm not sure.I guess they did not know what they had.

 

[LuvofChrist]

Why not keep it simple? Those that are predestined, (election), meaning chosen of God unto Salvation is unconditional. Meaning mankind does not have to work for Salvation. The Lord freely gives a person the Gift of Grace to be convicted of their sin, by the working Power of the Holy Spirit, once granted Repentance, forgiveness follows, then the Holy Spirit grants and inplants the Faith of Christ within the heart and soul of that person.

I did a writing years ago, and this is what the Holy Spirit taught me concerning it, which supports and confirms this posting.
Here is the link to the post, because the Post is too large to copy unto this platform, only allowed 10,000 characters.

https://comeseegoodnessofthelord.wo...g-is-from-the-author-of-all-lies-the-serpent/

The Lord bless you one and all.
In His Love.....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But only because of God's will that it be hardened, as the LORD had said. There was never a chance that it wouldn't be - so who really was the cause, God or pharaoh?

Once again

You missed the whole picture

Give them the truth so seeing they may not see and hearing they may not hear.

God strengthened (hardened) Phoaroahs own will. But slowly making him have to chose to reject the truth of what he was seeing. The more he ignored what he KNEW to be true the easier it would become.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why not keep it simple? Those that are predestined, (election), meaning chosen of God unto Salvation is unconditional. Meaning mankind does not have to work for Salvation. The Lord freely gives a person the Gift of Grace to be convicted of their sin, by the working Power of the Holy Spirit, once granted Repentance, forgiveness follows, then the Holy Spirit grants and inplants the Faith of Christ within the heart and soul of that person.

I did a writing years ago, and this is what the Holy Spirit taught me concerning it, which supports and confirms this posting.
Here is the link to the post, because the Post is too large to copy unto this platform, only allowed 10,000 characters.

https://comeseegoodnessofthelord.wo...g-is-from-the-author-of-all-lies-the-serpent/

The Lord bless you one and all.
In His Love.....

I think The lord predetermined his will

Whoever sees and believes will have eternal life.

Thats in its simplist form

God did not force people to get saved, and prevent others from being saved.

This is not in scripture.

 

[LuvofChrist]

I think The lord predetermined his will

Whoever sees and believes will have eternal life.

Thats in its simplist form

God did not force people to get saved, and prevent others from being saved.

This is not in scripture.

Yes the Lord does so, He did it with Paul, and many other's.......when the Lord desires someone to know Him, He does not care what they believe, He breaks in without permission.

The Lord spoke it and it is written, and the Holy Spirit seals it. As Jesus said,
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


No man has the free will to believe in Jesus Christ and repent of his sins, unless the Holy Spirit has done the work.
You need to see "if you be in the faith". Self-repentance is not salvation, it is self-works, by the will of man.
I pray the Lord will give you the Grace to see and believe.

 

[LuvofChrist]

I think The lord predetermined his will

Whoever sees and believes will have eternal life.

Thats in its simplist form

God did not force people to get saved, and prevent others from being saved.

This is not in scripture.

You state " I THINK The Lord predetermined his will" well you need the scriptures to support what you Think, please post where God's Word supports that presumption.


Yes the Lord does so, He did it with Paul, and many other's.......when the Lord desires someone to know Him, He does not care what they believe, He breaks in without permission.

The Lord spoke it and it is written, and the Holy Spirit seals it. As Jesus said,
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


No man has the free will to believe in Jesus Christ and repent of his sins, unless the Holy Spirit has done the work.
You need to see "if you be in the faith". Self-repentance is not salvation, it is self-works, by the will of man.
I pray the Lord will give you the Grace to see and believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But only because of God's will that it be hardened, as the LORD had said. There was never a chance that it wouldn't be - so who really was the cause, God or pharaoh?

The cause is obvious. Pharaoh hardened HIS OWN HEART. Very clear.

What you are suggesting or claiming is that God causes sin. That is totally unbiblical.

 

[Grandpa]

The Greek word means "to miss the mark". Sin is everything that is not of faith.


OK. And Christ died for ALL sin. Read Heb 10.


Because the Bible teaches that and very clearly.


No, the Bible says people will "die in their sin". Please show me any verse that says that people are "condemned of sin".

If that were true, then the Bible lies.


Because you are so unfamiliar with Scripture.


It's reality but your eyes are simply not open to truty.


Christ was condemned on behalf of mankind.

John 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 4:42 - They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

Are you prepared to argue that both John the baptizer and the Samaritans were Calvinists and used the word world" to mean ONLY certain people? That would be absurd. Jesus IS the Savior of the WORLD. That's everyone. Believe it.

2 Cor 5:14,15
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

There is no way to argue from the context or text that "all" can't mean everyone in humanity, or that it is limited ONLY to some.

Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Not just some.

1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 - And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our (believers) sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world (unbelievers).

These verses REFUTE your limited atonement opinions.

No they don't.

Either you believe in Universalism, EVERYONE is SAVED, regardless of what they do or don't do or believe or don't believe.

Or you believe in limited atonement.


There is no middle ground.


All you do here is attempt to have scripture argue with scripture. That is due to your lack of understanding not because the scriptures contradict each other.

 

[FreeGrace2]

rogerg said:
But only because of God's will that it be hardened, as the LORD had said. There was never a chance that it wouldn't be - so who really was the cause, God or pharaoh?

God. Just as he said in his word.

Seems to be a real need for some teaching here.

God does NOT cause sin, in any form. That would be blasphemous.

So, how did God harden Pharoah's heart? By allowing him to live longer so he himself could harden his own heart more.

iow, God gave him the opportunity to keep hardening his own heart.

Ex 9:16 - But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

So you see, God raised him up, knowing what he would do ON HIS OWN, and then kept him alive so that he could keep on hardening his own heart.

The idea that God causes people to reject Him is absurd. To the max.

1 Tim 2:3-6
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

To believe that God causes hardness of heart is to reject these 4 verses.

 

[LuvofChrist]

The cause is obvious. Pharaoh hardened HIS OWN HEART. Very clear.

What you are suggesting or claiming is that God causes sin. That is totally unbiblical.

I have to say Scriptures disagree with you, because Paul wrote it himself, a Chosen Apostle by the Hand of God himself.


Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


Who are you to argue with God? Rom 9:20.
Are you unknowingly calling the Lord a liar?
But in your ignorance you are believing a falsehood taught you by men who walk in the name of the Lord, but are still dead in their trespasses and sins.........

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is no way to argue from the context or text that "all" can't mean everyone in humanity, or that it is limited ONLY to some.

Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Not just some.

1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 - And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our (believers) sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world (unbelievers).

These verses REFUTE your limited atonement opinions.

No they don't.

Yes they do, and very clearly. Whether you can see it or not.

Either you believe in Universalism, EVERYONE is SAVED, regardless of what they do or don't do or believe or don't believe.

This is an absurd conclusion from the fact that Christ died for everyone. Titus 2:11 says that the grace of God that brings (offers) salvaion has appeared to everyone. Bingo.

Or you believe in limited atonement.

You are confusing two different concepts or doctrines. It may not be possible to absorb the truth when one does that.

There is no middle ground.

Of course there isn't. There is only truth.

1. Salvation is offered to everyone. Titus 2:11
2. Salvation is by believing in Christ. John 3:16, 5:24 and many more.
3. God only saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

These 3 points cannot be refuted since they are Scripture.

What Calvinists do not have are any verses that limit Christ's death to less than everyone.

All you do here is attempt to have scripture argue with scripture.

For this statement to be true, you will HAVE TO quote a verse that clearly limits Christ's death to a subgroup of the human race.

Good luck with that.

That is due to your lack of understanding not because the scriptures contradict each other.

OK, prove your claim, if you can.

Quote any verse that clearly shows that Christ's death was only for some, and NOT for all.

Otherwise, you remain as wrong as rain.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The cause is obvious. Pharaoh hardened HIS OWN HEART. Very clear.

What you are suggesting or claiming is that God causes sin. That is totally unbiblical.

I have to say Scriptures disagree with you, because Paul wrote it himself, a Chosen Apostle by the Hand of God himself.

Well then, let's take a look.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

OK, v.17 is a direct quote from Ex 9:16. iow, God knew what Pharoah would do, and placed him when and where He did. Acts 16:26,27.

Re: v.18 just read Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

This verse really blows the wind out of Calvinists' thinking and theology. Just notice the order in the verse. Tells you everything.

v.21 doesn't say, as Calvinists presume, that God causes people to do things.
v.22 the word "fitted" in the Greek is 'katartizo', which means to adjust to fit, mend, repair, etc. iow, NO ONE is created for destruction, another presumption of some Calvinists.

Who are you to argue with God? Rom 9:20.

I haven't.

Are you unknowingly calling the Lord a liar?

Of course not. But it is clear from your flawed theology that you are.

But in your ignorance you are believing a falsehood taught you by men who walk in the name of the Lord, but are still dead in their trespasses and sins.........

This is pathetic. I've just refuted all your points.

 

[LuvofChrist]

There is no way to argue from the context or text that "all" can't mean everyone in humanity, or that it is limited ONLY to some.

Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Not just some.

1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 - And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our (believers) sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world (unbelievers).

These verses REFUTE your limited atonement opinions.

Yes they do, and very clearly. Whether you can see it or not.


This is an absurd conclusion from the fact that Christ died for everyone. Titus 2:11 says that the grace of God that brings (offers) salvaion has appeared to everyone. Bingo.


You are confusing two different concepts or doctrines. It may not be possible to absorb the truth when one does that.


Of course there isn't. There is only truth.

1. Salvation is offered to everyone. Titus 2:11
2. Salvation is by believing in Christ. John 3:16, 5:24 and many more.
3. God only saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

These 3 points cannot be refuted since they are Scripture.

What Calvinists do not have are any verses that limit Christ's death to less than everyone.


For this statement to be true, you will HAVE TO quote a verse that clearly limits Christ's death to a subgroup of the human race.

Good luck with that.


OK, prove your claim, if you can.

Quote any verse that clearly shows that Christ's death was only for some, and NOT for all.

Otherwise, you remain as wrong as rain.

Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.


He prayed ONLY for those who would believe, as chosen by God, and given to the Lord. Jesus did NOT pray for the whole world.
You've listened to dead men walking, who live in the name of Christ, but do NOT KNOW Him! Why because they are still dead in their trespasses and sins. They were never Born from above by and through the Power of the Holy Spirit, they were self-willed believer's, and they are never saved.

 

[LuvofChrist]

FreeGrace2 said:
The cause is obvious. Pharaoh hardened HIS OWN HEART. Very clear.

What you are suggesting or claiming is that God causes sin. That is totally unbiblical.

Well then, let's take a look.


OK, v.17 is a direct quote from Ex 9:16. iow, God knew what Pharoah would do, and placed him when and where He did. Acts 16:26,27.

Re: v.18 just read Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

This verse really blows the wind out of Calvinists' thinking and theology. Just notice the order in the verse. Tells you everything.

v.21 doesn't say, as Calvinists presume, that God causes people to do things.
v.22 the word "fitted" in the Greek is 'katartizo', which means to adjust to fit, mend, repair, etc. iow, NO ONE is created for destruction, another presumption of some Calvinists.


I haven't.


Of course not. But it is clear from your flawed theology that you are.


This is pathetic. I've just refuted all your points.

No you have not.....You are not born-again from above, you are a self-willed after the flesh believer, who is still dead in your trespasses and sins.
Plain and simple.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You state " I THINK The Lord predetermined his will" well you need the scriptures to support what you Think, please post where God's Word supports that presumption.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You gave one of my greatest supporting passages in your own post.

No man has the free will to believe in Jesus Christ and repent of his sins, unless the Holy Spirit has done the work.
You need to see "if you be in the faith". Self-repentance is not salvation, it is self-works, by the will of man.
I pray the Lord will give you the Grace to see and believe.

Adam had free will to chose to sin. and because of it he died.

We have free will to chose to react to Gods message through his written word. The word of His children and the word of Nature (romans 1)