Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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ForestGreenCook

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glf said:
Election is truth, its just not unconditional. That election is seen in the Holy Spirit's working with the faithful to minister the gospel to the world. When a member of the body of Christ who is sharing the gospel via the word of God to the lost; and that lost person who hears is convicted of sins and called to the Lord by the Holy Spirit, who loves that lost one as he does Jesus. If someone responds to the Holy Spirit's moving with a godly sorrow, believing the word of the Lord being shared by the believer ministering; and repents, which is a choice, then Jesus gives that one a mustard seed of faith and the Holy Spirit's indwells making us one Spirit with the Lord.

A reason election is not unconditional, is that the Lord want's us to want him. Another reason is that the Lord is not a respecter of persons. Forced election upon a few and no hope for the others is not loving the others, yet scripture's first memory verse for many of us is; "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth will not perish, but have everlasting life." This doctrine of forced election for the few is not love for the many, is it? "God is not slack, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us ward, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance." Why would the Lord love a person as he loves Jesus, who no matter if that person believes and repents with a godly sorrow or not; he will be REJECTED HAVING ONLY BEING CALLED BUT NOT CHOSEN? Seems like the Lord is teasing him with a call, but forced rejection awaited all along; if the other side of the coin were unconditional election. And that was decided before they were born.

We're taught in scripture that the Lord is not a respecter of persons while clearly, he is; if unconditional election were true. We're taught that the Lord loves the whole world, but what kind of love forces the loved one into the eternal lake of fire for no reason? Is that an of example of how the Lord will love us once we're in heaven? Perhaps it is a good thing that blaspheming the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in heaven, if we have to deal with a God who forces his loved ones into eternal hellfire without cause. Imagine what he'll do with us, if that's how he treats his loved ones.

Thankfully, agape, love doesn't prefer some over others, but rather is kind, gentle, longsuffering, and always wants the best for everyone. Even the Lord's chastening isn't to punish us, but rather to correct us in love so that we might produce fruit unto righteousness. The Lord is not only a God of love, but he is also a God of joy, who desires for us to live with joy unspeakable and full of glory, together forever! The Lord is an infinite being, he is unable to have to many people to indwell! Love seeketh after its own. It is the Lord's love that leads us to minister the gospel to whosoever will.
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God loved the world of his elect, that God chose. That world did not choose him, but God chose them (John 15:16). There is a world that God did not chose, nor love (John 15:18-19).

Jesus prays not for the world that he does not love, but prays for the world that God has given him (John 17:9-10).

Psalms 73:5 - They (the world that God does not love) are not in trouble as other men: neither are they plagued (divinely punished) like other men. (the world he loves).. For whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth (divine punishment)(Heb 12:6) .
 
Magenta

Magenta

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The_Watchers_2017 said:
the Seed of God [[itself]] was all 100% PURE GOD.
it was placed into Mary's Womb and the Womb began developing the SEED into the genetic fabrics of the HOST MOTHER, this case, being Mary, and the SEED became wrapped into a flesh body.

the Angel SEED works same way. difference is, the baby created is no human at all. it needed to die. hence originally the Flood.
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Are you supposing that Mary's seed (ova) was not used at all?

The text says, "You will conceive and give birth to a son... "
 
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brightfame52

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Magenta said:
Are you supposing that Mary's seed (ova) was not used at all?

The text says, "You will conceive and give birth to a son... "
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I dont believe Jesus was from one of marys eggs, scripture says He was of the Holy Ghost Matt 1:18,20

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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brightfame52 said:
I dont believe Jesus was from one of marys eggs, scripture says He was of the Holy Ghost Matt 1:18,20

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused
to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph,
thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
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Yes, The Holy Spirit fathered her child. That she conceived means her ovum was used.

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and
her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel. Genesis 3:15

You are saying Jesus was fully implanted. Yikes.

I would still like to hear from @The_Watchers_2017 on this.

@posthuman this is what I made reference to recently...
 
The_Watchers_2017

The_Watchers_2017

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Magenta said:
Yes, The Holy Spirit fathered her child. That she conceived means her ovum was used.

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and
her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel. Genesis 3:15

You are saying Jesus was fully implanted. Yikes.

I would still like to hear from @The_Watchers_2017 on this.

@posthuman this is what I made reference to recently...
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i believe by a form of in-vitro, God implanted His Seed into one of Mary's Eggs.
i believe [to Overshadow], since the Holy Spirit also Overshadows during the transformation taking place when we become Believers and Follow God, is not physical intimacy, but Spiritual Intimacy.
i believe the Holy Spirit was Spiritually Intimate with Mary and in-vitro [placed] the fertilized Seed into her Egg.
 
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brightfame52

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Magenta said:
Yes, The Holy Spirit fathered her child. That she conceived means her ovum was used.

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and
her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel. Genesis 3:15

You are saying Jesus was fully implanted. Yikes.

I would still like to hear from @The_Watchers_2017 on this.

@posthuman this is what I made reference to recently...
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The seed of the women there in Gen 3:15 is Christ. Now does that mean Christ is literally the seed of marys egg ? So when Jesus is said to be the seed of David is it literal Rom 1:3

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

I read a study on this subject years ago:

A Short Study on Mary’s Part in the Incarnation Those of who hold to the heavenly origin and antiquity of the God-Man Mediator do not minimize the Incarnation or Mary’s part. We simply feel that we should only go as far as the Scriptures on these issues. Most of us have been raised in an apostate form of Christian thinking and by default we have embraced many points concerning the Incarnation that the Scriptures do not each, in my opinion. This is also true of such things as Christmas, Easter, baptism, the church, prophecy and many other subjects. The issue is not…Did Mary play a vital and necessary role in bringing the Manhood of Christ into this world. Yes, she did and without this work of the woman then we would have no redemption. Mary’s role is absolutely dispensable in the Incarnation and the resulting work of Christ in redemption. I will give a short study as to why. The issue comes down to this, in my opinion, Did Christ Jesus in His manly form of a servant, come from one of Mary’s eggs and therefore is He a earthy man standing and falling in Adam, and coming out of the dust of the earth? OR Did Mary shape and form the heavenly manhood of Jesus Christ into a servant by being the medium of the Power of God’s forming Him into the likeness of sinful flesh while in her womb? Is Christ an earthy man out of the dust of this earth by succession from Adam, or a heavenly man out of God the Father by generation? I hold that Mary did form and shape Christ into the form of sinful flesh, yet with out sin, while He was in her womb. I do not hold that Christ came from one of Mary’s natural eggs. I do not hold that Deity impregnated Mary in any way, because Christ, in His Manhood, is not a mutant in any way. He is not part God and part Mary in His sacred humanity, but only totally and completely from God in His sacred Manhood. Paul presents that Christ has been in two forms, Phil 2: and there are other statements that also support this and further explain it to us such as Hebrews 1.. The first form is that of the Divine Equal, or His being in the form of God. Please note that being in the Form of God is not in His divine Being, for God the Word is not a form of God, but God. John 1:1-3. Please do consider this. Secondly the Lord Jesus Christ emptied Himself, and took upon Himself no reputation, and entered into the form of a servant? Did God the Word empty Himself in any way and take on another form? No, He did not. This is Christ as the God-Man Mediator. Let us note that Deity does not take on forms, but Christ in His sacred Manhood did. Deity takes on appearances and manifestations but not forms. Paul speaks of His two forms here and in Luke he took on another form while walking and talking to the two men right after His resurrection and they knew Him not. Mary received into her womb, by the Holy Spirit’s power, the original form of Christ and fashioned the heavenly and original form of Christ into a servant. She did this while Christ was in her womb. Mary’s part in the incarnation was to form and fashion Christ. While she was doing this within her womb, Christ made His own blood and therefore this blood is the blood of God. I wish someone would tell me how that dust flesh or earthy flesh can make the blood of God? Therefore when Christ Jesus was in Mary’s womb, He laid aside for a while His form as the Divine Equal, and took on the form of a servant. So the issue is not did Mary play an important and necessary part in the Incarnation, but what part? She formed and fashioned Christ into the likeness of sinful flesh, yet without sin. If I am incorrect on these points, please do let me know, Ron.
http://particularbaptistlibrary.org/Christology/Mary's part in the incarnation.pdf
 
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John146

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ForestGreenCook said:
To have that thought, you are misinterpreting the scriptures. All scriptures must harmonize in order to understand the gospel that Jesus taught.
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All men includes all kings and everyone in authority...all men, everywhere...it harmonizes...God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth...all men...even all kings...and all that are in authority.
 
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brightfame52

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John146 said:
All men includes all kings and everyone in authority...all men, everywhere...it harmonizes...God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth...all men...even all kings...and all that are in authority.
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Thats a false interpretation.
 
The_Watchers_2017

The_Watchers_2017

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Ezekiel 33:

11 Say to them: ‘As I live’—it is a declaration of Adonai—‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Return, return from your evil ways. Why will you die, O house of Israel?’
 
The_Watchers_2017

The_Watchers_2017

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The_Watchers_2017 said:
Ezekiel 33:

11 Say to them: ‘As I live’—it is a declaration of Adonai—‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Return, return from your evil ways. Why will you die, O house of Israel?’
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^
from the Hebrew Tanakh: Book of Yechezkel

Now, either God is skitzo and says here, I DO NOT DESIRE THE WICKED TO PERISH AND WANT THEM TO REPENT AND RETURN.
or
God is saying this but still sending people to Hell for His Glory, as this Thread proposes.

but Yechezkel 33:11 is rather clear that God truly [[did not]] create people to go to Hell!!
 
The_Watchers_2017

The_Watchers_2017

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The_Watchers_2017 said:
Ezekiel 33:

11 Say to them: ‘As I live’—it is a declaration of Adonai—‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Return, return from your evil ways. Why will you die, O house of Israel?’
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THIS VERSE IS WHO GOD TRULY IS AND REVEALS JOHN 3:16 MEANS JESUS DIED FOR EVERY LIVING SOUL TO EVER LIVE, AS IS EVERYONE IS PREDESTINED TO LIVE IF THEY [[ACCEPT]] GOD!!
 
The_Watchers_2017

The_Watchers_2017

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Calvin, per Old Testament, his views were based off his understanding he had access to, the Greek Hellenized Version called the Septuagint.

but had Calvin had the actual Tanakh, and access to Yechezkel 33:11, just possibly, even he, could not screw up what God is Blatantly and Perfectly Understandably Clearly Saying here:

11 Say to them: ‘As I live’—it is a declaration of Adonai—‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Return, return from your evil ways. (((Why))) will you die, O house of Israel?’

that (((Why))), followed by will you die, really shows God is giving FREE WILL to EVERYONE, as in Every One of us, here in this Verse.

so much for the God choosing who lives and dies Doctrine!
 
Magenta

Magenta

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The_Watchers_2017 said:
Ezekiel 33:

11 Say to them: ‘As I live’—it is a declaration of Adonai—‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Return, return from your evil ways. Why will you die, O house of Israel?’
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Ezekiel18-4plus32
:)
 
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ForestGreenCook

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glf said:
Rom 8: 29 KJV "For whom he did foreknew, he did also predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn of many brethren."
This tells us that a group are predestinated to be made into Christ's image. It doesn't say when. I suspect that it will not be until quite some time after we're in New Jerusalem. We'll have the scriptures with us and as most of the new testament deals with sin. so considering how some Christians behave, it'll take a while even there.

Rom 8:30 KJV "Moreover whom he did predestinated, them also called, and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he also justified, them he also glorified."
And yet, "many are called, but few are chosen."
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The many called is the elect that are included in the household of Israel.

The few that are chosen of the elect are included in the remnant of the household of Israel

Both the household of Israel, and the remnant of the household of Israel are included as the total of all of God's elect, whom Christ died for, and who have been promised an eternal inheritance.
 
I

Inquisitor

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brightfame52 said:
Yes Gospel Truths, when you reject and scoff Total depravity of man as set forth in scripture, and the other tenants of TULIP as set forth in scripture, you reject Truths of the Gospel of Grace !
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That's theology your talking about.

Seriously, no one has any real idea whether we are totally depraved or partially depraved.

The truth of the gospel of grace is Jesus Christ.

Whether you know or understand some aspect of Christianity is not important.

What matters, is if you have been conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

Your trying to push the theology of TULIP and you should concentrating on Jesus Christ.

Pray without ceasing and throw TULIP in the bin.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8
Love is patient, love is kind, it is not jealous; love does not brag, it is not arrogant. It does not act disgracefully, it does not seek its own benefit; it is not provoked, does not keep an account of a wrong suffered, it does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; it keeps every confidence, it believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.

God is love.

Do you understand what being conformed to the image of Jesus means?
 
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