Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[The_Watchers_2017]

I don't follow your entire argument

just saying, i wonder if it's possible those around us today in every day life claiming to be Agnostic or Atheist are seeds of Genesis 6. if so, they would never choose God, even if God made Himself Personally known to them and Proved Himself.

it would explain Biblical Scholar and Agnostic/Atheist Bart D. Ehrman!

 

[Cameron143]

If all men have freedom to choose then it cannot be said that God specifically makes some for destruction,
for that would mean they are inherently rendered incapable of making the choice available to others.

And that is at the heart of the controversy regarding Calvinism.

That's your conclusion as you understand it. And there are some who say that Calvinism is as you say. But God clearly says in scripture that He desires all to be saved and that He chose a people for Himself before the foundation of the world.
In order for both to be true and that freewill exists, man has to have freewill and that in exercising their freewill they bring about the choices or purposes of God.

That's why I brought up the examples earlier. No human understands how Jesus was both God and man. It exceeds our ability to understand and is beyond the revelation that God has given. Yet we know it is true. That's how I view this topic. Both truths are given in scripture. I don't fully understand how it works. I believe both are true and it is my understanding that is lacking. To me, anyone who insists that only 1 is true must deny truth in order to establish truth.

 

[Cameron143]

just saying, i wonder if it's possible those around us today in every day life claiming to be Agnostic or Atheist are seeds of Genesis 6. if so, they would never choose God, even if God made Himself Personally known to them and Proved Himself.

it would explain Biblical Scholar and Agnostic/Atheist Bart D. Ehrman!

I see. I should probably stop here because your argument is logical, I don't actually believe as you do concerning procreation between angels and women.

 

[Magenta]

That's your conclusion as you understand it. And there are some who say that Calvinism is as you say. But God clearly says in scripture that He desires all to be saved and that He chose a people for Himself before the foundation of the world.
In order for both to be true and that freewill exists, man has to have freewill and that in exercising their freewill they bring about the choices or purposes of God.

There is no contradiction in God desiring all to be saved and Him having chosen a
people for Himself. You keep attributing to me things I have neither said nor believe.

There is a contradiction between God desiring all to be saved and yet specifically making some so they cannot make that choice.

They cannot both be true. And that is what I have been pointing at all along.

And it IS what Calvinists teach, and not just "my" understanding of it.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I see. I should probably stop here because your argument is logical, I don't actually believe as you do concerning procreation between angels and women.

there's enough Biblical Tanakh Scripture to prove 8 [Eight] Councils God had with Angels as Judges, Watchers, etc who rebelled and the Garden with Eve/Serpent, Genesis 6, Tower of Babel are direct results.

Reading the Hebrew really opens up the Picture.
after all, it was the Hebrew Version that was the INSPIRED Version given by God to man.
it gels perfectly with the Holy Spirit living inside you whenever you read the Hebrew because the Holy Spirit wrote it in this Version originally.

 

[Cameron143]

There is no contradiction in God desiring all to be saved and Him having chosen a
people for Himself. You keep attributing to me things I have neither said nor believe.

There is a contradiction between God desiring all to be saved and yet specifically making some so they cannot make that choice.

They cannot both be true. And that is what I have been pointing at all along.

And it IS what Calvinists teach, and not just "my" understanding of it.

My apologies. But you are likewise asking me to defend a position I don't believe I've taken. I have stated men make freewill choices as does God. In the exercise of those choices, man fulfills the purposes and choices of God.
I also used the example of Cain. Even after God refused his sacrifice, he told him he could still do well.
But, God had not chosen Cain to be in Christ. That line was through Seth.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

there's enough Biblical Tanakh Scripture to prove 8 [Eight] Councils God had with Angels as Judges, Watchers, etc who rebelled and the Garden with Eve/Serpent, Genesis 6, Tower of Babel are direct results.

Reading the Hebrew really opens up the Picture.
after all, it was the Hebrew Version that was the INSPIRED Version given by God to man.
it gels perfectly with the Holy Spirit living inside you whenever you read the Hebrew because the Holy Spirit wrote it in this Version originally.

to prove Angels, or Sons of God, are involved here in the Council, Judgments, etc...
Hebrew Torah Deuteronomy 32:

8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the Sons of God.
9 But the Lord's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.

the map of the Old World is summed up by God and His portion Verse 9 and the rest of humanity created to a specific Number that represents the Sons of God in God's Council:
there are how many Genetic Races of People? that is based off the Number of the Sons of God[/B]

[[he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the Sons of God.]]

 

[Cameron143]

there's enough Biblical Tanakh Scripture to prove 8 [Eight] Councils God had with Angels as Judges, Watchers, etc who rebelled and the Garden with Eve/Serpent, Genesis 6, Tower of Babel are direct results.

Reading the Hebrew really opens up the Picture.
after all, it was the Hebrew Version that was the INSPIRED Version given by God to man.
it gels perfectly with the Holy Spirit living inside you whenever you read the Hebrew because the Holy Spirit wrote it in this Version originally.

I'm sure it convinces you. But I've never seen the scripture that explains how procreation is possible between angels and humans so I'll keep my options open.

 

[Magenta]

My apologies. But you are likewise asking me to defend a position I don't believe I've taken. I have stated men make freewill choices as does God. In the exercise of those choices, man fulfills the purposes and choices of God.
I also used the example of Cain. Even after God refused his sacrifice, he told him he could still do well.
But, God had not chosen Cain to be in Christ. That line was through Seth.

I have only asked you to defend that which you have stated, for example, you saying both are true.

You saying both are true means you agree with the Calvinist position of God specifically making some for the
purpose of destruction despite Scripture saying God desires all to repent and come to the knowledge of truth.

 

[Cameron143]

I have only asked you to defend that which you have stated, for example, you saying both are true.

I did that already. I started there. Both are true. They are both found in scripture.
I also stipulated that man has freewill. I then said that as man exercises his freewill, the purposes of God are accomplished, even to fulfilling His purposes in election.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I'm sure it convinces you. But I've never seen the scripture that explains how procreation is possible between angels and humans so I'll keep my options open.

the term, in the Book of Jude, for what they did is the same SIN as what happened with Sodom.
Strange Flesh:
6 And the angels—who did not keep their own position of authority but deserted their proper place—He has kept in everlasting shackles under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great Day.

7 In the same way as these angels, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them—having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after a different sort of flesh—are displayed as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

now:
Notice Verse 6:
6 And the angels—who did not keep their own position of authority [THESE ARE COUNCIL MEMBER ANGELS WHO REBELLED WITH LUCIFER]


Notice Verse 7 the Angels SIN Committed:
7 In the same way as these angels, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them—having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after a different sort of flesh.

Notice specifically what these Council Member Angels did:
having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after a different sort of flesh

 

[Magenta]

I did that already. I started there. Both are true. They are both found in scripture.
I also stipulated that man has freewill. I then said that as man exercises his freewill, the purposes of God are accomplished, even to fulfilling His purposes in election.

And so then I did not ask you you to defend a position you hadn't taken despite your claim to the contrary.

Free will is not a Biblical concept. The natural man is a slave to sin. Slaves are not free.

 

[Cameron143]

the term, in the Book of Jude, for what they did is the same SIN as what happened with Sodom.
Strange Flesh:
6 And the angels—who did not keep their own position of authority but deserted their proper place—He has kept in everlasting shackles under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great Day.

7 In the same way as these angels, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them—having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after a different sort of flesh—are displayed as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

now:
Notice Verse 6:
6 And the angels—who did not keep their own position of authority [THESE ARE COUNCIL MEMBER ANGELS WHO REBELLED WITH LUCIFER]


Notice Verse 7 the Angels SIN Committed:
7 In the same way as these angels, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them—having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after a different sort of flesh.

Notice specifically what these Council Member Angels did:
having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after a different sort of flesh

Sexual immorality is an example of how man has left his former estate and fell under condemnation and are to be destroyed, even as the angels leaving their former estate are doomed to destruction.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Sexual immorality is an example of how man has left his former estate and fell under condemnation and are to be destroyed, even as the angels leaving their former estate are doomed to destruction.

the Holy Spirit Overshadowed Mary and basically In-Vitro'd the Seed of God into her womb NON SEXUALLY.

these Fallen Angels did not have sex, they are angels who took angel DNA and in-vitro'd these women and Giants called Nephillim are created.

it is believed so much in Ancient Israel they also believe every time a Nephillim died its spirit became a Demon.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

the key word in the Bible for Angel's in-vitro humans = Nephillim is referred to as [[[they...BORE..........for them]]].

they did not have sex, they just gave birth for them....or....they BORE...for them..

 

[Cameron143]

And so then I did not ask you you to defend a position you hadn't taken despite your claim to the contrary.

Free will is not a Biblical concept. The natural man is a slave to sin. Slaves are not free.

I see. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I chose freewill to reflect that the choices are the actual choices of the individual and not that there aren't influences upon those choices or factors that limit them.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

but ultimately what they did was Rebelled against God's Plan He originally had for humans.
the Angels got into the Bloodline DNA of God's creation.
this led to races of people called SIN being wiped off the face of the earth.

 

[Cameron143]

the Holy Spirit Overshadowed Mary and basically In-Vitro'd the Seed of God into her womb NON SEXUALLY.

these Fallen Angels did not have sex, they are angels who took angel DNA and in-vitro'd these women and Giants called Nephillim are created.

it is believed so much in Ancient Israel they also believe every time a Nephillim died its spirit became a Demon.

I believe God has that ability. And I believe He used human DNA. Even if angels did that, according to producing after its own kind, how could human DNA fertilize a human egg?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I believe God has that ability. And I believe He used human DNA. Even if angels did that, according to producing after its own kind, how could human DNA fertilize a human egg?

the Seed of God [[itself]] was all 100% PURE GOD.
it was placed into Mary's Womb and the Womb began developing the SEED into the genetic fabrics of the HOST MOTHER, this case, being Mary, and the SEED became wrapped into a flesh body.


the Angel SEED works same way. difference is, the baby created is no human at all. it needed to die. hence originally the Flood.

 

[Cameron143]

the Seed of God [[itself]] was all 100% PURE GOD.
it was placed into Mary's Womb and the Womb began developing the SEED into the genetic fabrics of the HOST MOTHER, this case, being Mary, and the SEED became wrapped into a flesh body.


the Angel SEED works same way. difference is, the baby created is no human at all. it needed to die. hence originally the Flood.

I understand your argument. I just don't agree with it.