Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I'd like to introduce you to 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Your argument is specious. No one is arguing that man saves himself through faith. That is ludicrous.

The Bible is clear: God saves those who believe.

What the Bible doesn't say is that God saves those He has elected.

I've shown you SEVERAL times but you don't seem to understand. You just seem to want to spew your error over and over for no purpose.

Just stop all this childish gibberish. I have given you the Bible. Maybe it's you who doesn't seem to understand.

If you don't think the verses I quote support my beliefs, then address the verse and explain why the verse doesn't. Just spewing your own brand of error does no good.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Everyone who is saved has been elected to service.

That's been MY point. Aren't you reading my posts?

v.4 says exactly that. God chose us (believers-v.19) to be holy and blameless.

 

[rogerg]

The word choose is not in the verse.

Did I say it is? I was attempting to explain it. The intent of that verse and the preceding verse, is that
mercy is solely based upon God not man, or do you think it otherwise? What is your point?

 

[John146]

Did I say it is? I was attempting to explain it. The intent of that verse and the preceding verse, is that
mercy is solely based upon God not man, or do you think it otherwise? What is your point?

of course not, man can’t will it or run it any other wat than God’s way.

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 8 and Ephesians 2.

Overwhelming scriptural evidence that election is to salvation, which has service rolled in. Just like Justification and Righteousness.



You CAN'T be elected to service unless you are SAVED. EVERYONE who is SAVED has been elected to SERVICE.

Exactly, and I explained that to that poster. Salvation and spiritual service go hand and hand. For example the redeemed sing of being redeemed from sin and then made unto priest Rev 5:9-10

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Now aren't priests servants of God ?

The elect are redeemed unto service to God.

 

[Grandpa]

Yes! Everyone who is saved is elected to service, not before one is saved. Election takes place after. Jesus Christ was God's servant. Did Jesus Christ need salvation?

Everyone who is elected to be Saved is made for service.

You can't be fore-ordained or predestined to service without first being fore-ordained or predestined to Salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Grandpa]

FreeGrace2 said:
I'd like to introduce you to 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Your argument is specious. No one is arguing that man saves himself through faith. That is ludicrous.

The Bible is clear: God saves those who believe.

What the Bible doesn't say is that God saves those He has elected.

Just stop all this childish gibberish. I have given you the Bible. Maybe it's you who doesn't seem to understand.

If you don't think the verses I quote support my beliefs, then address the verse and explain why the verse doesn't. Just spewing your own brand of error does no good.


That's been MY point. Aren't you reading my posts?

v.4 says exactly that. God chose us (believers-v.19) to be holy and blameless.

So why do you keep saying that election is only to service when you KNOW that election is to Salvation?

And you KNOW that everyone who is saved is saved FOR that service.


If EVERYONE who is saved is given service in the Lord then where is election in that? How can everyone be elected?



If everyone is elected then it pretty much defeats the purpose of election.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Exactly, and I explained that to that poster. Salvation and spiritual service go hand and hand.

All you 2 have is presumption. You CANNOT provide ANY verse that specifically links election to salvation. You can only presume it so.

And, you have failed to explain WHY Jesus Christ is called The Chosen One. Was He chosen for salvation? No. He was chosen to be the Suffering Servant and King of kings.

And what about Judas? He blows your presumptions to smithereens. John 6:70,71 destroys your theory,

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

So, the examples of Jesus, Judas and the ENTIRE nation of Israel proves that election is NOT to salvation.

For example the redeemed sing of being redeemed from sin and then made unto priest Rev 5:9-10

Nothing about either election or service.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Now aren't priests servants of God ?

The elect are redeemed unto service to God.

Sure. Guilt by association.

All elections are to service. Most are saved already, as Eph 1:4 shows. But you CANNOT explain Jesus, Judas and the nation of Israel.

None of them were chosen for salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Everyone who is elected to be Saved is made for service.

You cannot support with with any verse.

You can't be fore-ordained or predestined to service without first being fore-ordained or predestined to Salvation.

Then explain Judas, who WAS chosen by Jesus, to betray Him. John 6:70,71.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This applies to believers, sure. To be "created unto good works" means to be created FOR good works. There are no guarantees here.

It is what believers are SUPPOSED TO DO, or OUGHT TO DO.

This verse supports Eph 1:4 about believers being chosen for service.

 

[rogerg]

o why do you keep saying that election is only to service when you KNOW that election is to Salvation?

Grandpa, I don't know if you've dealt with FreeGrace2 before, but if you haven't, expect to spend a lot of time
in rabbit holes. You might just save yourself a lot of time and energy by putting a lid on it at this point,

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I'd like to introduce you to 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Your argument is specious. No one is arguing that man saves himself through faith. That is ludicrous.

The Bible is clear: God saves those who believe.

What the Bible doesn't say is that God saves those He has elected.

Just stop all this childish gibberish. I have given you the Bible. Maybe it's you who doesn't seem to understand.

If you don't think the verses I quote support my beliefs, then address the verse and explain why the verse doesn't. Just spewing your own brand of error does no good.


That's been MY point. Aren't you reading my posts?

v.4 says exactly that. God chose us (believers-v.19) to be holy and blameless.

So why do you keep saying that election is only to service when you KNOW that election is to Salvation?

I wish you were just kidding, but unfortunately, I know you are serious.

Because there are NO verses that show that election is to salvation. None, zero, nada, zip. Do any of these words have meaning for you?

And if it were so, then please explain why Jesus, Judas, angel and the entire nation of Israel were chosen.

And you KNOW that everyone who is saved is saved FOR that service.

Not Jesus, not Judas, not angels, and NOT the nation of Israel.

If EVERYONE who is saved is given service in the Lord then where is election in that?

A really odd question. The point is that people are saved AND elected for service. Too many believers fail to understand that. They just think they are among the "lucky ones" who God chose to save, unconditionally. They have NO IDEA that their election is FOR service, not to avoid the LoF.

How can everyone be elected?

Not everyone is elected. Your question is too vague to really be able to respond to.

If you are referring to "everyone who is saved", then the answer is simply, yes, God has chosen believers...for service.

And Eph 2:10 PROVES that clearly.

If everyone is elected then it pretty much defeats the purpose of election.

What in the world are you talking about?

Do you not think it is IMPORTANT that EVERY believer understand that they were elected for service? I've already pointed out that too many believers simply think election means they are among the "lucky ones", or the "chosen frozen" in order to miss the LoF.

And they couldn't be farther from the truth!

These "frozen chosen" need a kick in their butts and told what they were chosen for. It wasn't to miss the LoF.

I've given you 3 examples of election that WAS NOT to salvation, and you just gloss over them as if they don't exist.

ALL election is for service. Jesus Christ, angels, the nation of Israel, Judas, church age believers. And the first 4 examples CANNOT be for salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Grandpa, I don't know if you've dealt with FreeGrace2 before, but if you haven't, expect to spend a lot of time
in rabbit holes. You might just save yourself a lot of time and energy by putting a lid on it at this point,

That's right, rg. When you can't defend yourself, and can't refute another, just ignore. Avoid the whole deal.

You guys have NO verses to support your claims, but you still stubbornly refuse to simply accept the truth, that election is for service. God has chosen BOTH believers and unbelievers for service, as I have easily shown from the Bible.

Just admit that calvinism has some errors in their doctrines.

 

[John146]

Everyone who is elected to be Saved is made for service.

You can't be fore-ordained or predestined to service without first being fore-ordained or predestined to Salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You're mistake is equating election with predestination. They are not the same. Neither one is unto salvation.

Election is for service.
Predestination is for the future redemption.

 

[fredoheaven]

Did you read John 6:37, 39, 40,44,45,46 &47 too?
To summarize, they tell us that only those whom the Father specifically chose and gave to Christ have everlasting life --that everyone sent will be raised on the last day to it.
No one besides those drawn can come to Christ, though those of the "not drawn" may think so according to man's understanding of salvation.
Everyone drawn to Christ, cannot, not come to Christ.
Everyone drawn (and only those drawn) will be taught by God and by that learn of the Father.
Everyone drawn cannot, not, learn of the Father.
Everyone not drawn, cannot come to Christ, cannot learn of the Father, and will not receive everlasting life.
Verse 47 confirms that belief is as a result of having been given everlasting life (verses 39,40, 44 47)
which is a result of having been drawn of the Father.
Nowhere do those verses mention anything needed (to be done) by the recipient - God and Christ do it all.
These verses explain all aspects of how someone is saved.

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
[Jhn 6:39 KJV]
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[Jhn 6:40 KJV]
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[Jhn 6:44-47 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Of course, I did read all of that and they tend to conclude in 47, not only that I have read but as you skipped verses like the premise in John 6:35 when Jesus said “he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst”

Yes, what God has given shall come to Christ, and yet aside from them (Israelites) as the very examples of God’s provision of manna those who come will in no wise cast out. V37 proves to us that the word “and” means “in addition to” to those the Father gave. It is the will of the Father as in v.39 that everyone who sees the Son and believes on him, will have everlasting life. Those drawn not forced or elected (not even a hint the world of the elect) are those who heard and learned. They are they that will come.

 

[fredoheaven]

Everyone who is elected to be Saved is made for service.

You can't be fore-ordained or predestined to service without first being fore-ordained or predestined to Salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Not a verse or passage to support election to salvation. This is rather a text for setting an order for service of the saved.

 

[brightfame52]

fredoheaven

the word “and” means “in addition to” to those the Father gave.

You reading into the word meaning, it doesnt mean in addition to the ones the father gave Christ, its completing the line of thought that those are the ones who will come to Him, believe on Him.

Jesus is describing the manner they will come, in a spiritual manner being drawn by the Father Vs 44

Apart from Gods drawing men cannot come to Christ Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So that refutes your misapplication of the word and !

 

[rogerg]

Of course, I did read all of that and they tend to conclude in 47, not only that I have read but as you skipped verses like the premise in John 6:35 when Jesus said “he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst”

The "he that cometh to me" and "he that believeth on me" are those of v37. No one can come to Christ or believe in Him until first being drawn and taught by God. We are told in 1 Co 2:14 that natural man of himself is unable to do this. This is clearly demonstrated by v36. In it we see they (they of v34) saw Jesus first-hand and yet could not bring themselves to believe in Him. This was because God hadn't drawn them, and therefore, they were unable to see or believe.

[Jhn 6:36 KJV] 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[John146]

Everyone who is elected to be Saved is made for service.

You can't be fore-ordained or predestined to service without first being fore-ordained or predestined to Salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The good works hath God before ordained...

 

[FreeGrace2]

fredoheaven
You reading into the word meaning, it doesnt mean in addition to the ones the father gave Christ, its completing the line of thought that those are the ones who will come to Him, believe on Him.

Jesus is describing the manner they will come, in a spiritual manner being drawn by the Father Vs 44
Apart from Gods drawing men cannot come to Christ Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So that refutes your misapplication of the word and !

Wrong. I've yet to see any calvinist include v.45, which EXPLAINS clearly who will be drawn to Jesus.

v.45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So, there it is. Those who "come to me" are those who paid attention to what God has taught everyone. Those who listened and learned from the Father.

Straight from the mouth of Jesus Himself.

 

[fredoheaven]

The "he that cometh to me" and "he that believeth on me" are those of v37. No one can come to Christ or believe in Him until first being drawn and taught by God. We are told in 1 Co 2:14 that natural man of himself is unable to do this. This is clearly demonstrated by v36. In it we see they (they of v34) saw Jesus first-hand and yet could not bring themselves to believe in Him. This was because God hadn't drawn them, and therefore, they were unable to see or believe.

[Jhn 6:36 KJV] 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Yes, you are in the middle of nowhere. There are those who receive him and others reject him, There are those who believe on Him and those not. Your text in 1 Cor. 2:14 does not negate that both the saved and unsaved cannot hear the gospel. Both hear yet the one believes (being drawn, convicted by the Holy Spirit) are saved, the one who rejects will not and the Father cannot dawn them because they won’t. The reasoning that they were not drawn because the Father did not draw them is meant in the context, rather, they have rejected the offer to come or to believe. It begins with and ends with believing in Him to have everlasting life. The drawing is simply a matter of choice to believe or not believe in Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, you are in the middle of nowhere. There are those who receive him and others reject him, There are those who believe on Him and those not. Your text in 1 Cor. 2:14 does not negate that both the saved and unsaved cannot hear the gospel. Both hear yet the one believes (being drawn, convicted by the Holy Spirit) are saved, the one who rejects will not and the Father cannot dawn them because they won’t. The reasoning that they were not drawn because the Father did not draw them is meant in the context, rather, they have rejected the offer to come or to believe. It begins with and ends with believing in Him to have everlasting life. The drawing is simply a matter of choice to believe or not believe in Christ.

The lost may hear the Gospel but in hearing its foolishness to him 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The word perish here is the same word lost. So this confirms the truth in 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.