Do you believe in this?

[p_rehbein]

The answer to the question in the OP is contained in this passage of Scripture............

Luke 8:4) And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable: 5) A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. 6) And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. 7) And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. 8) And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 9) And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? 10) And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. 11) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12) Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14) And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15) But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

If you can read Scripture with understanding, you have your answer......

 

[rlm68]

If you are looking for a specific statement which says "Once you are saved you are always saved" you won't find it. But that does not mean there are no Scriptures. It simply means that you have not done your homework.

Let's use the scriptures explaining that after 1,000 years in NEW JERUSALEM, God sets the Adversary (Satan) free for a short time. But within this very short time, he is able to deceive many.

1. we make it to the 1,000 reign in New Jerusalem (we appear to be OSAS here definitely)
2. we spend day in and out with God knowing all things (we appear to be OSAS here definitely)
3. we are with God for 1,000 years and can be with Him in person (face to face) (we appear to be OSAS here definitely)
4. After 1,000 years, God releases our Adversary (Satan) for a short period (we appear to be OSAS here definitely)
5. The SCRIPTURES STATE --- those who are (we appear to be OSAS here definitely) and just spent 1,000 years with God can suddenly be deceived by the Adversary (clearly we are not OSAS)(which makes the OSAS a lie when you can make it through this life, reach the point of being in the presence of God, and 1,000 years later be deceived which means you have no salvation)!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I completely agree!!

I am just generalizing here, based upon the Book of Jude, concerning that one can know God and then deny Him by walking away.

And within that generalization, we are not always saved if we can know God and still walk away.

A question for you:

after the 1,000 reign in New Jerusalem (when God let's the Adversary (Satan) free and he is able to deceive those who have been with God for a 1,000 years and still backslide)...they prove you can be in PARADISE and still not ALWAYS BE SAVED!!

so clearly, the OSAS is bull poop!!


They are saved to make it to be with Christ and within 1,000 years still be deceived by Satan!!

Can you show me where in Jude there are people who were saved once and lost it?

As for 1000 years, not everyone in that day will be saved, Satan can not decieve a child of God, Satan decieved those who did not like to be under the rule of Christ. thats why they rebell

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The answer to the question in the OP is contained in this passage of Scripture............

Luke 8:4) And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable: 5) A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. 6) And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. 7) And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. 8) And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 9) And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? 10) And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. 11) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12) Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14) And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15) But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

If you can read Scripture with understanding, you have your answer......

I have read this 1000 times, And what I see is one group of people who recieved the word. and the root was planted. they were saved.

then I see 3 other examples of people who either outright rejected, or believed but had no root )christ) and since there was no root. The plant never produced fruit.

ie, they were never saved to begin with.

can any one else see loss of salvation here??

ps. I love this guys signature,

he says "remaining obedient (works) assures eternity. here is a perfect example of someone who believes in christ, yet his faith is in his ability to do the work required to maintian salvation, Not in the work of God to keep his own promise.

 

[dcontroversal]

I will make one post in this thread and after that good luck if you believe salvation can be lost.....

It is MORE absurd and IGNORANT to believe salvation can be lost based upon the following truths, promises and words that MUST BE REJECTED, DENIED, TWISTED or TRAMPLED UNDER FOOT......FOR salvation to be lost the following MUST be false.

a. I will NEVER leave thee nor FORSAKE THEE
b. We are SAVED to the UTTERMOST
c. WE are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD THROUGH FAITH
d. IF WE believe NOT (AFTER FAITH) HE abides faithful because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF
e. We are in the SON'S HAND<-NO MAN can yank us away
f. We are in the FATHER's HAND<-NO man can YANK us away
g. We are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE UNTO the DAY of REDEMPTION
h. WE are born of INCORRUPTIBLE SEED by the HOLY SPIRIT from ABOVE
I. THE GIFTS of GOD are IRREVOCABLE
J. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT
k. WE are given ETERNAL LIFE <-NOT temporal based upon performance
l. OUR freely given LIFE is EVERLASTING <-NOT temporal based upon performance
m. NOTHING shall separate us from the LOVE OF GOD
n. JESUS said he will LOSE NOTHING but will RAISE IT UP THE LAST DAY
o. WHATSOEVER GOD does is EVERLASTING <- including SAVING US
p. HE that believes on the SON IS HAVING EVERLASTING LIFE
q. THESE things are written that YOU MAY KNOW YOU HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE
r. WE ARE JUSTIFIED ETERNALLY by the BLOOD of CHRIST dia FAITH
s. WE are Sanctified in Christ positionally and ETERNALLY <--SEE HEBREWS
t. JESUS will leave the 99 to FIND US if we walk AWAY
u. WE are chastened for disobedience NOT CAST AWAY
v. SOME have works of wood, hay and stubble yet are SAVED SO A BY FIRE
w. THE prodigal was a SON and ALIVE throughout the WHOLE PROCESS and only PERCEIVED as dead and still received as a SON
x. IF we are in Christ we are NOT CONDEMNED <-John and Romans
y. SALVATION is spoken of in ALL THREE verb tenses and a PERFECT TENSE VERB = PRESENT continuing result from a past completed action

AND ON and ON and ON and ON.........EVERY ONE of the above truths must be denied, rejected or twisted out of context to believe the drivel that salvation can be lost and this is just off the top of my head at 8 am with no coffee yet......There are NO verses IN context that teach a salvation that can be lost like a coin at the local park.....and those who peddle such are akin to a street organ player with a dancing monkey in Calcutta playing and dancing for said COIN......

It must be tragic to serve such a weak, inept god that cannot keep you saved or one that needs help to maintain that which already IS by faith..........

 

[John146]

I will make one post in this thread and after that good luck if you believe salvation can be lost.....

It is MORE absurd and IGNORANT to believe salvation can be lost based upon the following truths, promises and words that MUST BE REJECTED, DENIED, TWISTED or TRAMPLED UNDER FOOT......FOR salvation to be lost the following MUST be false.

a. I will NEVER leave thee nor FORSAKE THEE
b. We are SAVED to the UTTERMOST
c. WE are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD THROUGH FAITH
d. IF WE believe NOT (AFTER FAITH) HE abides faithful because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF
e. We are in the SON'S HAND<-NO MAN can yank us away
f. We are in the FATHER's HAND<-NO man can YANK us away
g. We are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE UNTO the DAY of REDEMPTION
h. WE are born of INCORRUPTIBLE SEED by the HOLY SPIRIT from ABOVE
I. THE GIFTS of GOD are IRREVOCABLE
J. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT
k. WE are given ETERNAL LIFE <-NOT temporal based upon performance
l. OUR freely given LIFE is EVERLASTING <-NOT temporal based upon performance
m. NOTHING shall separate us from the LOVE OF GOD
n. JESUS said he will LOSE NOTHING but will RAISE IT UP THE LAST DAY
o. WHATSOEVER GOD does is EVERLASTING <- including SAVING US
p. HE that believes on the SON IS HAVING EVERLASTING LIFE
q. THESE things are written that YOU MAY KNOW YOU HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE
r. WE ARE JUSTIFIED ETERNALLY by the BLOOD of CHRIST dia FAITH
s. WE are Sanctified in Christ positionally and ETERNALLY <--SEE HEBREWS
t. JESUS will leave the 99 to FIND US if we walk AWAY
u. WE are chastened for disobedience NOT CAST AWAY
v. SOME have works of wood, hay and stubble yet are SAVED SO A BY FIRE
w. THE prodigal was a SON and ALIVE throughout the WHOLE PROCESS and only PERCEIVED as dead and still received as a SON
x. IF we are in Christ we are NOT CONDEMNED <-John and Romans
y. SALVATION is spoken of in ALL THREE verb tenses and a PERFECT TENSE VERB = PRESENT continuing result from a past completed action

AND ON and ON and ON and ON.........EVERY ONE of the above truths must be denied, rejected or twisted out of context to believe the drivel that salvation can be lost and this is just off the top of my head at 8 am with no coffee yet......There are NO verses IN context that teach a salvation that can be lost like a coin at the local park.....and those who peddle such are akin to a street organ player with a dancing monkey in Calcutta playing and dancing for said COIN......

It must be tragic to serve such a weak, inept god that cannot keep you saved or one that needs help to maintain that which already IS by faith..........

Let's also add:

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

[BenFTW]

11) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12) Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

I find it pertinent that we put emphasis on Luke 8:12, and see that the devil after someone hears the gospel "cometh" and "taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved." So, first and foremost, the devil is on the prowl to stop someone from believing at all. Why? "Lest they should believe and be saved."

We then move onto the other three seeds, the first being the one that the devil took the word out of their heart thereby hindering their salvation. Of the other three, we notice people that did believe (And what happens when one believes?), yet two of the three got caught up in the world and "didn't bring fruit onto perfection." Please notice when referencing the subsequent seeds, past the first (who didn't believe), that the topic now is not salvation but fruit bearing.

Luke 8:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Why mention their lives and fruit? We are saved unto good works. The devil only came for the first seed, the one yet to believe so that he may take the word of God out of their heart "lest they should believe and be saved." This is why it seems to me that it is only the first seed that is not saved, but the other three are "even yet so as by fire."

 

[p_rehbein]

I find it pertinent that we put emphasis on Luke 8:12, and see that the devil after someone hears the gospel "cometh" and "taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved." So, first and foremost, the devil is on the prowl to stop someone from believing at all. Why? "Lest they should believe and be saved."

We then move onto the other three seeds, the first being the one that the devil took the word out of their heart thereby hindering their salvation. Of the other three, we notice people that did believe (And what happens when one believes?), yet two of the three got caught up in the world and "didn't bring fruit onto perfection." Please notice when referencing the subsequent seeds, past the first (who didn't believe), that the topic now is not salvation but fruit bearing.

Luke 8:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Why mention their lives and fruit? We are saved unto good works. The devil only came for the first seed, the one yet to believe so that he may take the word of God out of their heart "lest they should believe and be saved." This is why it seems to me that it is only the first seed that is not saved, but the other three are "even yet so as by fire."

Actually............. vs. 13 says

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

That's about salvation..............

just saying

 

[Quantrill]

By defenitin, they are not the same, not in this universe, not in the next.

Again, I can believe a person can rescue me, it does not mean I have faith in that person at all.. Not all believe equals faith. It takes salvic belief/faith to be saved, mere believe will never save anyone.



I already told you who they were, they believed in jesus, they di not have faith in him, And paul said they were not saved, I think I will trust paul.



Adoption is a position (I have been adopted by God) it is also a doctrine, the doctrine is not what saved, in fact, people believe in different doctrines of what adoptin means.

WHat matters is that we are adopted.

Salvation is also a doctrine, it is also a possession

Justification is also a doctrine, yet it is also a stated fact (we have been justified)

Again, I am not sure where the disconnect sis.



I can agree, but if they do not trust God to keep his promise (eternal life) then their faiht is not in God, and I not see how they can be saved.





Because your saying salvation can be lost. or at the least, saying those who think it can have the same gospel you do. That is adding works..

Faith and belief are the same thing. If you have faith in Christ, if you believe in Christ, they are the same. Mere belief does save. How much 'faith' do you have? Can you move a mountain with your faith?

Give the Scripture of the Jews you are addressing. Are you scared? And I already told you that if they believed they were saved.

We were talking about the doctrine or position of eternal security. Don't try and change the subject.

One needs only trust in Jesus Christ to be saved. If that is not enough to save, no one is saved. Doctrine comes later.

I never said salvation can be lost. Where in the world did you get that? You need to pay attention.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

We are? I am not, I am talking about the point one says yes to christ, what is their faith in?

Yes, I know. You keep making it harder to come to Christ then God does.

Quantrill

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith and belief are the same thing. If you have faith in Christ, if you believe in Christ, they are the same. Mere belief does save. How much 'faith' do you have? Can you move a mountain with your faith?

Do you ever listen? You have spent post after post saying I have an attitude, yet here you are not listening.

Of course if I have faith I believe, thgatsa not the point, I can belief and NOT HAVE FAITH. I have said this now multiple times. Yet you continue to ignore it, If you can not respond to what I am saying , then please do not bother responding at all.

I can move a mountain wiht faith of a mustard seed. I can believe I can move that mountain all I want, if I have no faith (even faith of a mustard seed) all that belief will amount to nothng,

Give the Scripture of the Jews you are addressing. Are you scared? And I already told you that if they believed they were saved.

Scared? My god man have you read pauls letters? Or the book of hebrews. The fact you have to ask makes me wonder if your just trying to be argumentative

Paul asked the galatin church if they thought they began in the spirit (belief) yet had to perfect in the flesh (works) and he spoke of works of the law.. Were these people saved?

We were talking about the doctrine or position of eternal security. Don't try and change the subject.

I am talking about Gods promise of eternal life, his promise that whoever believes will never hunger thirst die, they will live forever. And are gven his assurance he will raise them from the dead. I do not know what your talking about.

One needs only trust in Jesus Christ to be saved. If that is not enough to save, no one is saved. Doctrine comes later.

Trust. I can believe, and yet not trust. Many jews believed, they did not trust, and their gospel represented their lack of faith, they trusted in religion, not grace. Sadly many churches today are no different.

I never said salvation can be lost. Where in the world did you get that? You need to pay attention.

Quantrill

Then why are you trying to prove me wrong if you do not even believe it, unless you believe it yourself

Do you ever pay attention to what your arguing? [/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, I know. You keep making it harder to come to Christ then God does.

Quantrill

Oh?? Lol.. please, do tell what you think I believe how a person comes to christ.

I will wait patiently..

I am not the one arguing that people must maintain their own salvation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Let's use the scriptures explaining that after 1,000 years in NEW JERUSALEM, God sets the Adversary (Satan) free for a short time. But within this very short time, he is able to deceive many.

Let's assume that the life span of each generation during the Millennium is 100 years (Isa 65:20). Which means 10 generations within 1,000 years. While the first generation may be fully saved, the last generation may not. Therefore they will be deceived by Satan.

As to the "elect" (the saved ones), they cannot be deceived.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Mt 24:24)

 

[Quantrill]

Do you ever listen? You have spent post after post saying I have an attitude, yet here you are not listening.

Of course if I have faith I believe, thgatsa not the point, I can belief and NOT HAVE FAITH. I have said this now multiple times. Yet you continue to ignore it, If you can not respond to what I am saying , then please do not bother responding at all.

I can move a mountain wiht faith of a mustard seed. I can believe I can move that mountain all I want, if I have no faith (even faith of a mustard seed) all that belief will amount to nothng,



Scared? My god man have you read pauls letters? Or the book of hebrews. The fact you have to ask makes me wonder if your just trying to be argumentative

Paul asked the galatin church if they thought they began in the spirit (belief) yet had to perfect in the flesh (works) and he spoke of works of the law.. Were these people saved?



I am talking about Gods promise of eternal life, his promise that whoever believes will never hunger thirst die, they will live forever. And are gven his assurance he will raise them from the dead. I do not know what your talking about.



Trust. I can believe, and yet not trust. Many jews believed, they did not trust, and their gospel represented their lack of faith, they trusted in religion, not grace. Sadly many churches today are no different.



Then why are you trying to prove me wrong if you do not even believe it, unless you believe it yourself

Do you ever pay attention to what your arguing?

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Ah, that is not true. I haven't spent post after post saying you have an attitude. I did mention that. But I have spent post after post showing that you are trying to add to the Gospel of faith in Christ. You want to say that one must also adhere to the doctrine or position of eternal security in order to be saved. Why do you feel the need to misrepresent.

What mountain have you moved with your little faith? What ocean was it placed in? Faith and belief are the same thing.

Give me the Scriptures you are addressing concerning the Jews that believed. I have already told you that if they believed, they are Christian.

Give me the Scriptures you are addressing in the book of (Galatians).

You're starting to hedge now. Get it together. We are discussing eternal security. You say you don't know what I am talking about? I have been clear what I am talking about. Again, you are feigning ignorance because your position is becoming untenable.

All the Jews that believed were born-again.

Note again, you are not paying attention, and feigning ignorance. I have been very clear that I hold to the eternal security of the believer in Christ. I have also been clear that I hold to faith in Christ is all that is required to be born-again. And I have been clear that ones belief in the eternal security of the believer is not required for one to be born again. That is what you are requiring. And that is what I am objecting to. And you know it.

You can easily go back and reread my posts and see that is so.

I pay close attention to what I write, and to what others write.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Oh?? Lol.. please, do tell what you think I believe how a person comes to christ.

I will wait patiently..

I am not the one arguing that people must maintain their own salvation.

You have added a belief in the doctrine or position of eternal security to faith in Christ.

Quantrill

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ah, that is not true. I haven't spent post after post saying you have an attitude. I did mention that. But I have spent post after post showing that you are trying to add to the Gospel of faith in Christ. You want to say that one must also adhere to the doctrine or position of eternal security in order to be saved. Why do you feel the need to misrepresent.

What mountain have you moved with your little faith? What ocean was it placed in? Faith and belief are the same thing.

Give me the Scriptures you are addressing concerning the Jews that believed. I have already told you that if they believed, they are Christian.

Give me the Scriptures you are addressing in the book of (Galatians).

You're starting to hedge now. Get it together. We are discussing eternal security. You say you don't know what I am talking about? I have been clear what I am talking about. Again, you are feigning ignorance because your position is becoming untenable.

All the Jews that believed were born-again.

Note again, you are not paying attention, and feigning ignorance. I have been very clear that I hold to the eternal security of the believer in Christ. I have also been clear that I hold to faith in Christ is all that is required to be born-again. And I have been clear that ones belief in the eternal security of the believer is not required for one to be born again. That is what you are requiring. And that is what I am objecting to. And you know it.

You can easily go back and reread my posts and see that is so.

I pay close attention to what I write, and to what others write.

Quantrill

Seems all you want to do is argue, Your not even listening to what I say

Paul said they were to be anathamed, that they were lost. I will go with paul ok?

I teach salvation by grace through faith alone period. The eternal. Life we are trying to discuss (well at least I am) is the result of being saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have added a belief in the doctrine or position of eternal security to faith in Christ.

Quantrill

Nope. I have added the RESULTS of faith in christ

Get it together man.

 

[tanakh]

Do you guys believe in once saved always saved doctrine? I think this is ridiculous. There is no where in scripture that says this. Where are these Christians getting this from? I would like to know your thoughts about this.

If you are not saved by the belief that salvation was obtained by the finished work of Christ on what basis do you believe it is based on?
Without it you may as well believe in Allah, Buddha or any other religious leader/God you care to mention. In short why believe in Christ at all? Every other way relies in an individual being good enough to deserve salvation. Are you good enough?

 

[SpoonJuly]

Do you guys believe in once saved always saved doctrine? I think this is ridiculous. There is no where in scripture that says this. Where are these Christians getting this from? I would like to know your thoughts about this.

You really want to know what is ridiculous?
The pople who do not have faith that the one who saves also keeps one saved.

Do you really believe that you can keep yourself saved?
Do you really believe you are that righteous?
Do you really believe Jesus needs you help?
That is more than ridiculous, that is inconceivable.

I am really concerned for your eternal soul with that attitude.

 

[Waggles]

Do you guys believe in once saved always saved doctrine? I think this is ridiculous. There is no where in scripture that says this. Where are these Christians getting this from? I would like to know your thoughts about this.

I see in these very last of days that Bible prophecy is happening before our very eyes -
and the U.S.A. in particular seems very much afflicted by every evolving doctrines of faith and salvation by a constant
re-inventing of Christianity to appease many (and rake in the dollars).

The scriptures clearly warn us all that we can lose our salvation by a number of means. Even Jesus himself refers to this.