Do you believe in this?

[Quantrill]

They have? Then why do they Not have faith God will keep his promises?


I disagree, they are spitting on grace of God. saying it is no sufficient, That the gift we recieve by grace can be lost (whatever means that grace is lost does not matter)



Again, yes they have, they do not teach the same gospel I teach. we both can not be right.



Jesus said he will never lose us, That whoever has faith in him will NEVER die Live FOREVER, HAS eternal life, has passed from death to life, WILL be risen on the last day and as long as jesus lives, they will live also. God said he has perfected FOREVER those who are BEING sanctified. Paul said we have eternal life the moment we believed, not only this but the seal f the spirit as a pledge. He also said we have been given EVERY spiitual blessing which is in Christ, that we have been justified completly. John said we can KNOW we have eternal life (not might have) and by this FACT continue to believe. That once we are adopted. we can no longer live in sin (unbelief is a sin, continuing in unbelief is living in sin) and that those who once procliamed to be part of the church, and now of their free will all of a sudden deny Christ, they were never saved to being with. that those who have true faith would NEVER chose to freely leave (why would they?)

How can we claim to have faith in God. yet not believe these things are facts?

I can not get how you can say they do

For one to become a Christian they are not required to believe everything about God. Most know hardly anything about God. They simply believe on Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. And that is all that is required.

See, you project an attitude when you say they are 'spitting in the face of God' which I do not see. They are usually quite concerned of offending God.

The gospel is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Do you want to add to it?

I believe completley in eternal security. But that is not a required doctrine to believe in order to be saved. One comes to that conclusion, or not, through future studies.

Quantrill

 

[Magenta]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And where did I say that?

When you stated that people who believe salvation can be lost (meaning it must be earned) and people who believe God keeps his promises both teach the same gospel.

What does God require for us to be saved?

He who believes (has faith or assurance) is NOT CONDEMNED

He who does not believe (has no faith or assurance) is CONDEMNED ALREADY

Many people BELIEVE in jesus, they just do not HAVE FAITH in him

Do I have to believe one way or another concerning eternal security? Do I have to believe one way or another concerning the Millennium? Do I have to believe one way or another concerning the Trinity?

Quantrill

The mellinium has no bearing on ones salvation.

What believe about God and our eternal state has everything to do.

If you believe that you have to believe in jesus, then maintain that salvation by any means, You can;t say you believe in Christ (have faith)

You can not believe in salvation by grace, and not believe in eternal security.

eternal life is eternal. it is not conditional.. Losing faith (as people claim) is a condition if it can cause us to LOSE eternal life. That would make eternal life conditional.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

For one to become a Christian they are not required to believe everything about God.

I never said they did in fact I argued against this though process twice now. why do you insist otherwise?

Most know hardly anything about God. They simply believe on Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. And that is all that is required.

Jesus said whoever believes will receive certain things, How can you say you have faith if you do not believe the things Jesus promised?

and again, I agree, we come to God as children, not mature adults. But I am talking about the gospel. The bible talks about the simplicity of the gospel. If you do not yet understand the gospel. then you still have some learning to do and you can not make any decision to trust it or reject it. (unless you have decided to reject it already, or to believe in a different gospel)

See, you project an attitude when you say they are 'spitting in the face of God' which I do not see. They are usually quite concerned of offending God.

Then they would not take the grace of Christ and reject it..
I am just stating facts man, You saying my salvation can be lost is quite offensive, not only to me, but my God. so before you start judging me, please remove the plank!

The gospel is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Do you want to add to it?

Many believe, yet as the bible says, Belief enough is not alone, Even the demons believe yet tremble

I can believe a man can rescue me from the sea, but unless I have total faith and assuracnce he is capable of doing it, I will never fully trust him. I will always have doubts as to whether he can do what he promises, and in turn, will try to help him.

this is what you are proposing I should do.

I believe completley in eternal security. But that is not a required doctrine to believe in order to be saved. One comes to that conclusion, or not, through future studies.

Quantrill

Then the gospel is not complete. How can you say you trust the gospel. yet not believe.

The gospel says eternal security is a fact. if you do not believe this is true, you do not believe in the gospel. [/QUOTE]

 

[Quantrill]

When you stated that people who believe salvation can be lost (meaning it must be earned) and people who believe God keeps his promises both teach the same gospel.



He who believes (has faith or assurance) is NOT CONDEMNED

He who does not believe (has no faith or assurance) is CONDEMNED ALREADY

Many people BELIEVE in jesus, they just do not HAVE FAITH in him



The mellinium has no bearing on ones salvation.

What believe about God and our eternal state has everything to do.

If you believe that you have to believe in jesus, then maintain that salvation by any means, You can;t say you believe in Christ (have faith)

You can not believe in salvation by grace, and not believe in eternal security.

eternal life is eternal. it is not conditional.. Losing faith (as people claim) is a condition if it can cause us to LOSE eternal life. That would make eternal life conditional.

The gospel that leads one to salvation is 'believe on Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour'. That is it.

Belief and faith are the same thing. Believing on Jesus Christ and placing faith in Jesus Christ is the same thing. The point is, that is all that is required.

Yes, I know the Millennium has nothing to do with our initial salvation. And neither does the doctrine of eternal security. That was my point. How about the Trinity? Do you need to understand the Trinity in order to be saved?

You see, you appear to be adding to the gospel. You are requiring something God never did in order for one to be saved.

Quantrill

 

[Hevosmies]

The gospel that leads one to salvation is 'believe on Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour'. That is it.

Belief and faith are the same thing. Believing on Jesus Christ and placing faith in Jesus Christ is the same thing. The point is, that is all that is required.

Yes, I know the Millennium has nothing to do with our initial salvation. And neither does the doctrine of eternal security. That was my point. How about the Trinity? Do you need to understand the Trinity in order to be saved?

You see, you appear to be adding to the gospel. You are requiring something God never did in order for one to be saved.

Quantrill

Sounds easy enough yes.
But are you suggesting you can believe Jesus is something other than God and be saved?

 

[Quantrill]

I never said they did in fact I argued against this though process twice now. why do you insist otherwise?



Jesus said whoever believes will receive certain things, How can you say you have faith if you do not believe the things Jesus promised?

and again, I agree, we come to God as children, not mature adults. But I am talking about the gospel. The bible talks about the simplicity of the gospel. If you do not yet understand the gospel. then you still have some learning to do and you can not make any decision to trust it or reject it. (unless you have decided to reject it already, or to believe in a different gospel)



Then they would not take the grace of Christ and reject it..
I am just stating facts man, You saying my salvation can be lost is quite offensive, not only to me, but my God. so before you start judging me, please remove the plank!



Many believe, yet as the bible says, Belief enough is not alone, Even the demons believe yet tremble

I can believe a man can rescue me from the sea, but unless I have total faith and assuracnce he is capable of doing it, I will never fully trust him. I will always have doubts as to whether he can do what he promises, and in turn, will try to help him.

this is what you are proposing I should do.





Then the gospel is not complete. How can you say you trust the gospel. yet not believe.

The gospel says eternal security is a fact. if you do not believe this is true, you do not believe in the gospel.

[/QUOTE]

Because you continue to require belief in the doctrine of eternal security to be saved. And that is not the Gospel. The Gospel is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

All one needs to know is that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour and their need to accept Him as such. That is it.

Well, if you are secure in your salvation, why would you be offended. God is not offended.

You say belief is not enough. Now you sound exactly like those you claim to be against. Salvation is not offered to demons. They can't lose what they don't have. God is not asking for 'total faith'. None of us have that. He just asks for very little. Believe on Jesus Christ.

Because eternal security is not a requirement to be saved.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Sounds easy enough yes.
But are you suggesting you can believe Jesus is something other than God and be saved?

Many will only know they are a sinner. When they hear the Gospel, which is Jesus Christ the Son of God and Saviour came and died for your sins so that you can be saved if you believe.

They may not know of the Trinity, that the Son is the Second Person of the Godhead. All they know is they are a sinner in need of a Saviour.

Quantrill

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The gospel that leads one to salvation is 'believe on Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour'. That is it.

Then demons will be saved. Because they believe in Jesus

Faith and belief are not the same, I can believe in someone, yet not have faith in them at all I am astounded you do not understand the difference.

Belief and faith are the same thing. Believing on Jesus Christ and placing faith in Jesus Christ is the same thing. The point is, that is all that is required.

Um you can not read james, and actually believe this.

The word faith has in it the form of having a conviction, an assurance, a trust in the person you are placing your faith in, I can believe in someone, and not have faith in them at all.

The jews Paul stood up to believed in Jesus, they never had faith in him, thats WHY they tried to return to the law. they may have BELIEVED in jesus, but their assurance, their trust, their conviction was in the law.

Yes, I know the Millennium has nothing to do with our initial salvation. And neither does the doctrine of eternal security. That was my point.

eternal security is not a doctrine, it is a position, it is a thing which we have,, God promised us many things, and gave us many things, those things are not doctrines, they are possessions or gifts.

How about the Trinity? Do you need to understand the Trinity in order to be saved?

I would wonder how you can think a man dieing on a cross could remove my sins, But no.

You see, you appear to be adding to the gospel. You are requiring something God never did in order for one to be saved.

Quantrill

Sadly, Your not only adding works, but subtracting gifts. Eternal life (security) is a gift, not a doctrine

 

[Quantrill]

Then demons will be saved. Because they believe in Jesus

Faith and belief are not the same, I can believe in someone, yet not have faith in them at all I am astounded you do not understand the difference.





Um you can not read james, and actually believe this.

The word faith has in it the form of having a conviction, an assurance, a trust in the person you are placing your faith in, I can believe in someone, and not have faith in them at all.

The jews Paul stood up to believed in Jesus, they never had faith in him, thats WHY they tried to return to the law. they may have BELIEVED in jesus, but their assurance, their trust, their conviction was in the law.




eternal security is not a doctrine, it is a position, it is a thing which we have,, God promised us many things, and gave us many things, those things are not doctrines, they are possessions or gifts.



I would wonder how you can think a man dieing on a cross could remove my sins, But no.



Sadly, Your not only adding works, but subtracting gifts. Eternal life (security) is a gift, not a doctrine

Salvation is not offered to demons. They can't obtain it, and can't lose what they can't obtain. Faith and belief in Christ are the same thing.

I don't know which Jews you are addressing who stood up to Paul. If it was the Jews that believed, then they were saved.

Oh, eternal security is a position not a doctrine? Ok, one does not have to hold the position of eternal security in order to be saved.

I agree, one does not need to know the doctrine of the Trinity to be saved. Nor does he need to take the position of eternal security.

How in the world am I adding works when I say all one needs to do is believe on Jesus Christ.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Good verses.

Quantrill

 

[trofimus]

There are many who believe Jesus is God but believe you can lose your salvation. They are still Christian.

Quantrill

But if somebody does not believe that Jesus is God, its not very useful to discus OSAS with him.

 

[trofimus]

Many will only know they are a sinner. When they hear the Gospel, which is Jesus Christ the Son of God and Saviour came and died for your sins so that you can be saved if you believe.

They may not know of the Trinity, that the Son is the Second Person of the Godhead. All they know is they are a sinner in need of a Saviour.

Quantrill

We are not talking about somebody who does not know, however. We are talking about somebody who has all the sources and information (its the 21st century, who wants to know, knows) but does not believe it.

 

[Quantrill]

But if somebody does not believe that Jesus is God, its not very useful to discus OSAS with him.

If they don't believe Jesus is the Saviour then it is pointless also. So, what is your point?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

We are not talking about somebody who does not know, however. We are talking about somebody who has all the sources and information (its the 21st century, who wants, know) but does not believe it.

Yes I know. We are talking later, after one is saved.

Quantrill

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Salvation is not offered to demons. They can't obtain it, and can't lose what they can't obtain. Faith and belief in Christ are the same thing.

By defenitin, they are not the same, not in this universe, not in the next.

Again, I can believe a person can rescue me, it does not mean I have faith in that person at all.. Not all believe equals faith. It takes salvic belief/faith to be saved, mere believe will never save anyone.

I don't know which Jews you are addressing who stood up to Paul. If it was the Jews that believed, then they were saved.

I already told you who they were, they believed in jesus, they di not have faith in him, And paul said they were not saved, I think I will trust paul.

Oh, eternal security is a position not a doctrine?

Adoption is a position (I have been adopted by God) it is also a doctrine, the doctrine is not what saved, in fact, people believe in different doctrines of what adoptin means.

WHat matters is that we are adopted.

Salvation is also a doctrine, it is also a possession

Justification is also a doctrine, yet it is also a stated fact (we have been justified)

Again, I am not sure where the disconnect sis.

Ok, one does not have to hold the position of eternal security in order to be saved.

I can agree, but if they do not trust God to keep his promise (eternal life) then their faiht is not in God, and I not see how they can be saved.

I agree, one does not need to know the doctrine of the Trinity to be saved. Nor does he need to take the position of eternal security.

How in the world am I adding works when I say all one needs to do is believe on Jesus Christ.

Quantrill

Because your saying salvation can be lost. or at the least, saying those who think it can have the same gospel you do. That is adding works..

 

[rlm68]

We can not. If you have the Holy Spirit, if you died with Christ and was born again by His power, you cannot leave Him, because you are in Him and He is in you. Its not like walking away from a person in a street.

If you can, your faith was only intelectual, habitual or cultural.

WOW, i am generalizing using the very basic concepts here. Yes, I do agree with your assessment, but I disagree since we know the Book of Jude is directed at BACKSLIDERS!!

So, what is a BACKSLIDER?

A person who knows the awesome power of GOD and still chooses to deny Him and live opposite of God.

There is that little nasty FREE WILL issue again.

But in the very basics of practicality, anyone can leave God!!




***Let me add this:

According to your response...that indicates a person who has chosen to dedicate themselves to God.
For the ones who accepted Christ, but never really engulfed themselves into God and His presence, they are still riding the fence by their own WILL!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes I know. We are talking later, after one is saved.

Quantrill

We are? I am not, I am talking about the point one says yes to christ, what is their faith in?

 

[rlm68]

John answers the question of those who once professed to be part of the church, and then left of their own free will.

1 John 2:
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

As you can see;

1. They were never saved
2. The professed to be of us but then changed, and now deny christ
3. Their departure was to PROVE they were never saved to begin with.

I completely agree!!

I am just generalizing here, based upon the Book of Jude, concerning that one can know God and then deny Him by walking away.

And within that generalization, we are not always saved if we can know God and still walk away.

A question for you:

after the 1,000 reign in New Jerusalem (when God let's the Adversary (Satan) free and he is able to deceive those who have been with God for a 1,000 years and still backslide)...they prove you can be in PARADISE and still not ALWAYS BE SAVED!!

so clearly, the OSAS is bull poop!!


They are saved to make it to be with Christ and within 1,000 years still be deceived by Satan!!

 

[Nehemiah6]

There is no where in scripture that says this.

If you are looking for a specific statement which says "Once you are saved you are always saved" you won't find it. But that does not mean there are no Scriptures. It simply means that you have not done your homework.