Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Deade]

Everyone? Gosh. I have not. I bet others have not either.

Okay, not everyone but many do. They claim I am trying to be justified by keeping the law. If that were the case, I would have utterly failed. Using the law as a guideline for life, I see how we are not able to keep it. Like Paul said in Romans, my flesh keeps getting in the way. So we see the law as spiritual, but we are carnal warring against the law. Then Paul thanks God for grace that has us covered.

 

[DeighAnn]

Another day of mixing wool and linen.

We live unto Christ in order that we LIVE UNTO GOD.

We have those who are happy with "being saved" (thief on the cross, MILK) DEBATING WITH those who CONTINUE ON DOWN THE ROAD to live unto God (Priests unto the Lord, MEAT)

Yes, the first step is how we are justified, the second STEP in is WHAT we do PAST having been justified.

We don't "pray" TO Christ, we pray "through", TO THE FATHER.

But OF HIM are ye in Christ Jesus, who OF GOD is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption

Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. (A CONDITIONAL PROMISE)

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Hebrews 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Hebrews 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Hebrews 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
Hebrews 5:2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
Hebrews 5:3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
Hebrews 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Hebrews 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Another day of mixing wool and linen.

We live unto Christ in order that we LIVE UNTO GOD.

We have those who are happy with "being saved" (thief on the cross, MILK) DEBATING WITH those who CONTINUE ON DOWN THE ROAD to live unto God (Priests unto the Lord, MEAT)

Yes, the first step is how we are justified, the second STEP in is WHAT we do PAST having been justified.

We don't "pray" TO Christ, we pray "through", TO THE FATHER.

But OF HIM are ye in Christ Jesus, who OF GOD is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption

Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. (A CONDITIONAL PROMISE)

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Hebrews 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Hebrews 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Hebrews 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
Hebrews 5:2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
Hebrews 5:3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
Hebrews 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Hebrews 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Once we get justification down

The question is how we are sanctified

and how we are not sanctified.

thats the major problem I see in the church, what does it look like how is it accomplished.

 

[Magenta]

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

That says it all

 

[DeighAnn]

That says it all

Yes, I can't hardly wait to get rid of this flesh either. To be absent from this body and to be with the Lord. Oh, happy day.

 

[Magenta]

Yes, I can't hardly wait to get rid of this flesh either. To be absent from this body and to be with the Lord. Oh, happy day.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

You are also a law keeper, why preach against the law of Moses?

Can we be under law and Grace?

 

[DeighAnn]

Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of God.

The law, the Word of God, is a SCHOOLMASTER to bring us to Christ. So to get to Christ you must go through the Schoolmaster. Once you have you graduate, no longer "under" the schoolmaster.

Having gone through the schoolmaster you know the difference between the ordinances, rituals, statutes, laws......So you know what was nailed to the Cross and what wasn't. You know the difference between being in bondage to and liberty from.

Some wish to say the law was done away with as an all encompassing strike of the pen. But Jesus himself says NOT A JOT...Why??

Because JUST AS WE WERE LEAD TO CHRIST THROUGH IT, THOSE THAT FOLLOW MUST BE LEAD TO CHRIST THROUGH IT.

Therefore it remains the same, we are just not under it, in bondage to it, under the curse of it, and aware of what was and was not nailed to the cross.

 

[gb9]

Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of God.

The law, the Word of God, is a SCHOOLMASTER to bring us to Christ. So to get to Christ you must go through the Schoolmaster. Once you have you graduate, no longer "under" the schoolmaster.

Having gone through the schoolmaster you know the difference between the ordinances, rituals, statutes, laws......So you know what was nailed to the Cross and what wasn't. You know the difference between being in bondage to and liberty from.

Some wish to say the law was done away with as an all encompassing strike of the pen. But Jesus himself says NOT A JOT...Why??

Because JUST AS WE WERE LEAD TO CHRIST THROUGH IT, THOSE THAT FOLLOW MUST BE LEAD TO CHRIST THROUGH IT.

Therefore it remains the same, we are just not under it, in bondage to it, under the curse of it, and aware of what was and was not nailed to the cross.

jeez, you are STILL pushing the lie that the Law is divided into parts????

can you not learn anything? can you not see what is what when multiple people have pointed out the error in this theology??

I am STILL waiting for you to produce a greek word that says the Law is divided. the word " nomos" is defined as a primarily singular, as in ONE LAW!

 

[DeighAnn]

jeez, you are STILL pushing the lie that the Law is divided into parts????

can you not learn anything? can you not see what is what when multiple people have pointed out the error in this theology??

I am STILL waiting for you to produce a greek word that says the Law is divided. the word " nomos" is defined as a primarily singular, as in ONE LAW!

What I haven't gotten is any TRUTH from YOU, NOT so far, anyhow.

Saying of the Mosaic law "the law must be one, is singular, can not be divided is something I can not find in Scripture. I can't find a law, I can't find a doctrine, a definition, a teaching, or a reference to what you are proposing "as truth".

I do understand the word "nomos" , but even there, in the definition of the word, I see nothing to substantiate your position. Also, a billion people could tell me something, but if it doesn't come from God, doesn't matter to me.


And the differences between laws, ordinances, statutes, and judgements, same as between moral, civil and ceremonial, just as between temporary and eternal.

WHAT is, so far UNACCEPTABLY strange AND out of Gods character, to me at least, is that God, who doesn't even want linen and wool mixed, or an ox with an ass, would INSIST on all these very different "laws", with differences that range from temporary to eternal, written upon different mediums, at different times, both spoken and written, to the people and to Moses alone, be "classified as" a "ONE, don't divide its' parts into parts EVER" doctrine that is so well hidden virtually no one ever discusses it but you.

ALSO No, multiple people have not pointed out, at least not in any of the Scriptures where the Mosaic law "MUST ALWAYS BE HELD AS "ONE SINGLE LAW, INDIVISIBLE" for any reason.


I give you MULTIPLE EXAMPLEs, multiple times and you never respond to how the points I make can be negated.

I CAN FIND NO WHERE THE LAW IS PRIMARILY SINGULAR, AS IN ONE LAW. Reading though the whole page I found NOTHING stating "one law".

νόμος, νόμου, ὁ (νέμω to divide, distribute, apportion),

3551 nomos
that which is assigned, hence usage, law, custom
of law in general, plural; of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton; of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general

Help studies
nomos-law is used of a) the Law (Scripture), with emphasis on the first five books of Scripture; or
b) any system of religious thinking (theology), especially when nomos occurs without the Greek definite article

then can refer to "the Law" or "law" as a general principle (or both simultaneously). The particular sense(s)

nomos is determined by the context

Word Origin
from nemo (to parcel out)

Definition that which is assigned, hence usage, law

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
νόμος, νόμου, ὁ (νέμω to divide, distribute, apportion)

of any law whatsoever

the plural of the things prescribed by the divine will

of the Mosaic law, and referring , according to the context, either to the volume of the law or to its contents

of the Christian religion, the law demanding faith,
the moral instruction given by Christ, especially the precept concerning love

by metonymy, the name of the more important part (i.e. the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the O.T.

From a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specially, (of Moses (including the volume); also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle) -- law


Commandment
4687 Mitsvah
a commandment of men or God, or a commandment out of a code of wisdom.

from tsavah 6680 - to lay a charge upon, to command, to charge, to give orders or to appoint

charge mishmereth 4931 - to guard, a charge, an obligation, service, to watch, keeping or preserving
from mishmar 4929 - a place of confinement, a guard post, the act of guarding, or observances
from shamar 8104 - to keep, guard, observe, give heed to, to keep within bounds, to observe, celebrate, or keep, to abstain

Judgment
Mishpat 4941
the process of deciding, a decision in law, justice, ordinance, the legal right or privilege due.

from shaphat 8199 to judge, to govern, vindicate, punish, to rule, or decide controversy.

Statute
Choq 2706
a condition or civil enactment from God, an ordinance (enactment or decree), a limit, or something prescribed (a task, portion, limit/boundary).

Ordinance
Choq or Chuqqah 2706 2708 (from H2706)
a statute, ordinance, limit, enactment, or something prescribed.

all statutes are a type of command, but not all commands are statutes.

Law
Torah
8451
a special law or codes of law, directions/instruction both human and divine (body of prophetic teaching, body of legal directives, body of priestly direction/instruction), custom or manner,
understood as being inclusive of commandments, judgments, and statutes
context dictates when referring to commands or direction from men and not God.

Deuteronomy 11:1
You shall therefore love the Lord your God, and always keep His charge, His statutes, His ordinances, and His commandments.

 

[gb9]

What I haven't gotten is any TRUTH from YOU, NOT so far, anyhow.

Saying of the Mosaic law "the law must be one, is singular, can not be divided is something I can not find in Scripture. I can't find a law, I can't find a doctrine, a definition, a teaching, or a reference to what you are proposing "as truth".

I do understand the word "nomos" , but even there, in the definition of the word, I see nothing to substantiate your position. Also, a billion people could tell me something, but if it doesn't come from God, doesn't matter to me.


And the differences between laws, ordinances, statutes, and judgements, same as between moral, civil and ceremonial, just as between temporary and eternal.

WHAT is, so far UNACCEPTABLY strange AND out of Gods character, to me at least, is that God, who doesn't even want linen and wool mixed, or an ox with an ass, would INSIST on all these very different "laws", with differences that range from temporary to eternal, written upon different mediums, at different times, both spoken and written, to the people and to Moses alone, be "classified as" a "ONE, don't divide its' parts into parts EVER" doctrine that is so well hidden virtually no one ever discusses it but you.

ALSO No, multiple people have not pointed out, at least not in any of the Scriptures where the Mosaic law "MUST ALWAYS BE HELD AS "ONE SINGLE LAW, INDIVISIBLE" for any reason.


I give you MULTIPLE EXAMPLEs, multiple times and you never respond to how the points I make can be negated.

I CAN FIND NO WHERE THE LAW IS PRIMARILY SINGULAR, AS IN ONE LAW. Reading though the whole page I found NOTHING stating "one law".

νόμος, νόμου, ὁ (νέμω to divide, distribute, apportion),

3551 nomos
that which is assigned, hence usage, law, custom
of law in general, plural; of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton; of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general

Help studies
nomos-law is used of a) the Law (Scripture), with emphasis on the first five books of Scripture; or
b) any system of religious thinking (theology), especially when nomos occurs without the Greek definite article

then can refer to "the Law" or "law" as a general principle (or both simultaneously). The particular sense(s)

nomos is determined by the context

Word Origin
from nemo (to parcel out)

Definition that which is assigned, hence usage, law

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
νόμος, νόμου, ὁ (νέμω to divide, distribute, apportion)

of any law whatsoever

the plural of the things prescribed by the divine will

of the Mosaic law, and referring , according to the context, either to the volume of the law or to its contents

of the Christian religion, the law demanding faith,
the moral instruction given by Christ, especially the precept concerning love

by metonymy, the name of the more important part (i.e. the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the O.T.

From a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specially, (of Moses (including the volume); also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle) -- law


Commandment
4687 Mitsvah
a commandment of men or God, or a commandment out of a code of wisdom.

from tsavah 6680 - to lay a charge upon, to command, to charge, to give orders or to appoint

charge mishmereth 4931 - to guard, a charge, an obligation, service, to watch, keeping or preserving
from mishmar 4929 - a place of confinement, a guard post, the act of guarding, or observances
from shamar 8104 - to keep, guard, observe, give heed to, to keep within bounds, to observe, celebrate, or keep, to abstain

Judgment
Mishpat 4941
the process of deciding, a decision in law, justice, ordinance, the legal right or privilege due.

from shaphat 8199 to judge, to govern, vindicate, punish, to rule, or decide controversy.

Statute
Choq 2706
a condition or civil enactment from God, an ordinance (enactment or decree), a limit, or something prescribed (a task, portion, limit/boundary).

Ordinance
Choq or Chuqqah 2706 2708 (from H2706)
a statute, ordinance, limit, enactment, or something prescribed.

all statutes are a type of command, but not all commands are statutes.

Law
Torah
8451
a special law or codes of law, directions/instruction both human and divine (body of prophetic teaching, body of legal directives, body of priestly direction/instruction), custom or manner,
understood as being inclusive of commandments, judgments, and statutes
context dictates when referring to commands or direction from men and not God.

Deuteronomy 11:1
You shall therefore love the Lord your God, and always keep His charge, His statutes, His ordinances, and His commandments.

according to Moses, God said in Leviticus 26 that the Covenant, which contained the laws, commands, ordnances , statues, was made " the fathers of those who came out of Egypt".

so, if you cannot trace your ancestry back to those who crossed the red sea. then that covenant, and all it contained, was not made with you.

and, Deuteronomy was a review of the Covenant told to Israel by Moses before they entered the promised land.

and, keep in mind, Israel entered into the Covenant , they agreed to keep the statues, laws and commands in contingent with possessing the Land.

we Christians " believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

you judraizers say " keep the Law in order to walk out that salvation", a made up, non biblical concept.

and , maybe one day you will see, one Law, one Covenant.

 

[DeighAnn]

according to Moses, God said in Leviticus 26 that the Covenant, which contained the laws, commands, ordnances , statues, was made " the fathers of those who came out of Egypt".

so, if you cannot trace your ancestry back to those who crossed the red sea. then that covenant, and all it contained, was not made with you.

and, Deuteronomy was a review of the Covenant told to Israel by Moses before they entered the promised land.

and, keep in mind, Israel entered into the Covenant , they agreed to keep the statues, laws and commands in contingent with possessing the Land.

we Christians " believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

you judraizers say " keep the Law in order to walk out that salvation", a made up, non biblical concept.

and , maybe one day you will see, one Law, one Covenant.

WE NEVER SAY TO KEEP THE LAW IN REFERENCE TO THE GIFT OF SALVATION. YOU ARE the one who "SAYS WE SAY" AND KEEPS ON SAYING NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES WE SAY " WE DON'T". SO, let me say it again, I don't keep the law to be saved. I study and follow the ways Christ, the WORD OF GOD, because The LORD LOVES ME AND I LOVE THE LORD.

BUT, I FIGURE YOU MUST KEEP SAYING THAT BECAUSE OF THE DOCTRINES OF MAN (TALK ABOUT LAWS) AND BECAUSE YOU NEED TO KEEP THAT DOCTRINE MORE THAN GODS WORD.

I CAN'T EVEN COUNT HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE SAID (AND OTHERS HAVE SAID) THAT THE KEEPING OF IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GIFT OF SALVATION

BUT YOU DON'T LIKE THAT. SO YOU KEEP FALSELY ACCUSING, LIKE THAT ISN'T A SIN. OR YOU KNOW IT IS, BUT YOU JUST DON'T CARE.

YOU ACT LIKE WHEN YOU WILL BE STANDING BEFORE GOD YOU WILL BE JUDGED FOR WHAT JESUS DID AND NOT WHAT YOU DID. YOU ACT LIKE YOU WILL RECEIVE THE REWARDS FOR WHAT HE DID, AND NOT WHAT YOU DID OR DIDN'T.

JESUS MADE IT SO THAT WE DON'T DIE BECAUSE OF SIN. WE ARE JUSTIFIED THROUGH HIM, AND THEN WE WILL BE JUDGED BY HIM. DO YOU THINK THAT TEACHING "THERE IS NO MORE LAW, ESPECIALLY NOT FOR GENTILES" IS GOING TO LOOK GOOD?

JESUS TOOK AWAY THE "WORK" AS IN CEREMONY, RITUALS, ANIMAL SACRIFICE" THAT HAD TO BE "DONE" PHYSICALLY. NOW IT IS DONE "SPIRITUALLY" THROUGH HIS BLOOD AND OUR HEARTS AND MINDS. THAT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT THERE ARE WAYS OF WALKING THAT ARE HOLY AS GOD SEES IT AND THERE ARE WAYS THAT ARE EVIL AS GOD SEES IT. IF YOU HAVE NO LAW, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT GOD FINDS "RIGHT" FROM WHAT GOD FINDS "EVIL". AND IF YOU THINK THE HOLY SPIRIT JUST "GIVES" YOU THAT THEN THERE WOULD BE NO DIVISION AMONGST BELIEVERS WOULD THERE?

YOU WANT TO TAKE THAT 'JESUS DID IT ONCE PERFECTLY' AND WILL NEVER HAVE TO DO AGAIN, AND CHANGE THAT TO MEAN, NO MATTER WHAT, ONCE SOMEONE HAS ACCEPTED THAT GIFT, NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO OR WHO THEY BECOME OR WHO/WHAT THEY MAY WORSHIP, THAT GOD "STILL HAS TO" SAVE THEM, BUT THAT JUST AIN'T SO, AND THE BIBLE DOESN'T SAY THAT. ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE. TO BELIEVE MEANS YOU HEAR THE WORD, OBEY THE WORD, STAY THE COURSE. Leave the course, leave the gift.

WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS WHY YOU HAVE SUCH A PROBLEM WITH THE WORD OF GOD AND WHY YOU FIGHT SO HARD TO "BLOT OUT" THE ENTIRE OLD TESTAMANT BY INSISTING ONLY "JUDAIZERS" (WHICH I DON'T THINK MEANS WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS) FOLLOW THE LAW IN ANY CAPACITY BUT TO LOVE GOD AND NEIGHBOR BECAUSE IF YOU LOVED GOD YOU WOULD LOVE THE WORD AND YOU WOULD KNOW WHAT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS AND THOUGH WE ARE NOT TO SACRIFICE ANIMALS, ALL THE LAW OF GOD IS GOOD AND NECESSARY, ESPECIALLY FOR THOSE COMING TO CHRIST. IF YOU DON'T GO THROUGH THE LAW YOU CAN'T 'GRADUATE'. THE LAW LEADS TO CHRIST. TRUE, NO MORE BONDAGE TO DEATH AND SIN BUT LIBERTY FROM THE WORKS OF IT, AND NOT FOR SALVATION BUT CERTAINLY FOR SANCTIFICATION A CONTINUAL PROCESS THAT WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE OF "WHO GOD IS AND WHAT DOES GOD WANT" CAN'T BE DONE.


MY "KNOWLEDGE" OF WHAT GOD IS LOOKING FOR IN THE WAY OF GOOD AND RIGHT VS EVIL AND WRONG comes from the law. NOT WHAT I THINK is truth, BUT WHAT HE HAS TOLD ME is true. AND I SURELY DON'T WANT TO HAVE SOMEONE WHO HAS COME TO ME AND ASKED ABOUT THE LORD TO BE STANDING ON JUDGMENT DAY AND SAY TO GOD "I DIDN'T KNOW it WAS IMPORTANT to do it your way BECAUSE I WAS TOLD "JUST believe and LOVE" then WHEN they find out that GOD DOESN'T SEE IT THE SAME WAY AS THAT SOUL IN THE EVIL FLESH BODY did you know who God is going to look to next? THE ONE WHO TAUGHT HIM AND God is going to ASK HIM WHY THEY SAID we don't follow the law, we are gentiles, DOING IT HIS WAY DOES MATTER. CAUSE HE IS GOING TO LOOK AND SAY "I WROTE YOU A REALLY LONG AND DETAILED LETTER AND YOU THOUGHT telling anyone that "parts of it don't matter" WAS A GOOD IDEA?"

IF WE DON'T TEACH GODS WAY, THAT ONLY LEAVES ONE OTHER WAY. And when they go to pass that on, a little more gets lost. And very soon it isn't about God at all.

according to Moses, God said in Leviticus 26 that the Covenant, which contained the laws, commands, ordnances , statues, was made " the fathers of those who came out of Egypt".

Do you want to "come into the fold" or not? Or do you only want to come into the fold "under certain terms and conditions that would be applicable to gentiles only" about 2000 years ago?

Do you think that God has "right and wrong for the gentile which is a different right and wrong for the seedline? It was opened to whomsoever would.

"Can we trace our bloodline"? NO, then don't you think it is better to have lived like the seed line and find out you weren't rather than to have lived like you were not and find out you were?

God is God. The same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He is no respecter of persons. It is FROM being a Gentile TO being a Christian. GRAFTED IN to the SAME ROOT. Not different, Not a "gentile Christian" but "a Christian" like all other Christians.

Do you not understand that Christ broke down the wall of separation? Do you know God doesn't like division? Do you know we are all to be made into ONE many membered body? Sure different duties for different parts but you can't have one leg skipping without the other skipping to.

Do you know that the thief on the cross received exactly what you are trying to get others to accept, stop, "and go no further"? Do you not understand that salvation is a gift that we aren't judged or clothed or rewarded for? But the way we live and walk we are?

What do you think of giving one day a week to the Lord, be it a law or not? Is one day even enough for you? Me, not even close to enough. I would go insane with just one day a week. My time spent in the Word has nothing to do with law or duty, it just makes life worth living. The only thing I find TRULY interesting.

Do you think fighting so hard against spending one day a week with Him hurts His feelings? I know it would hurt mine.

Believing in the Lord Jesus comes from hearing the Word of God. If you don't know the Word of God, are you really believing in Jesus? or just "who you believe Jesus to be"? And with an "instead of Jesus" on his way, and the gospel armor the only way to be kept from the deception, do you think any teaching that takes away from the Word is good?

Oh wait, that's right, that isn't what you are saying. What you are saying is salvation is a gift. Same thing I keep saying.

Jesus, the Word, made flesh. What Word was that? The Old Testament, the law and the prophets made flesh, and that perfect flesh becoming the Lamb of God, the last ritual, ceremony and spilling of blood that would ever take place for the forgiveness of sins repented of in which we are justified and made righteous in the eyes of God. Our saving Grace. Our Mercy. Our High Priest. Our Mediator. Our example of walking a pleasing walk to God.

 

[Elderdave]

The purpose of the Old Test. today.

1. It defines sin and righteousness.

A. Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. (NKJ)

B. Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." (NKJ)

C. Rom 7:12 "...the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good."

D. Rom 15:4 "For whatever was written in earlier time's was written for our instruction..."

E. I Cor 10:6-11 6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. (NKJ)

F. I Tim 1:8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully… (NKJ)

II Tim 3:16-17 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (NKJ)

(alternate version's)

II Tim 3:16 Every scripture inspired of God (is) also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. (ASV)

II Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; (NAS)

II Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, (NIV)

H. Mt 5:17-18 17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the aw till all is fulfilled. (NKJ)

Here is something to think about: Most people interpret this passage to mean that when all the prophesies concerning Jesus suffering and resurrection ere fulfilled that the law passed away.

In order to interpret it this way, one must believe that the word "all" does not include all of the Old Test prophesies concerning the Messiah. Hence the word "all" is not all inclusive.

There is some support for this reasoning in other passage's of scripture, and in logic. e.g. If John and 7 other people who were with him went to the Mall; We could state that they all went to the Mall. Here the term "all" does not mean that every human being on earth went to the Mall; but that John and His 7 friend's did. So the term "all" is not all inclusive; but limited in scope to the 8 people referred to in the sentence. Hence context determines whether or not the word "all" is all inclusive or not.

But in this passage; it is hard to determine the correct interpretation of this word. For if you consider the context of the rest of the New Test.; It can be reasonably concluded that the word "all" is not all inclusive. But if you isolate the verse from the rest of the New Test. The context demand's that it be interpreted as all inclusive. This, of course, would mean that every part of the law is still in effect because not all of the prophecies concerning Jesus in the Old Testament have yet been fulfilled! (Although many have been.) But according to the rest of the New Test., this cannot be true.

So may I suggest an alternate interpretation? Consider this: Being that the term "all" is all inclusive in the verse's context, and the rest of the New Testament say's that at least a portion of the law is done away with; it could be said that just as a portion of the prophecy’s have been fulfilled; and a portion have not been fulfilled; so also a portion of the Old Testament is done away with (i.e. Levitical Priesthood, Temple worship, animal sacrifice for sin, circumcision, the ark of the covenant, Passover, etc.) and a portion still remains in effect. (i.e. the moral law's of the Old Testament such as:

Deut 6:4-7 4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. 6 "And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7 "You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. (NKJ)

Mt 22:37-40 37 Jesus said to him," `You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment. 39 "And the second is like it: `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (NKJ) Mk 12:30

Lev 19:18 `You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. (NKJ)

Matt 19:19 `Honor your father and your mother,' and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" (NKJ) (Matt 22:39, Mark 12:31, Romans 13:9, Gal 5:14, James 2:8)

I could go on and on demonstrating how Old Testament laws are repeated in the New Testament ; but what has been given is sufficient to prove that the Old Testament moral law's are Still in effect today, and are to be obeyed! Of course, we cannot obey them in our own strength or effort's apart from God's power; but through His power and strength that He give's us we are to walk in obedience.

Also the Old Testament defines New Testament term's. For example: The New Test. state's that we are to abstain from sexual immorality. But it does not define sexual immorality. However it is defined for us in the Old Test. (e.g. Leviticus 18:6-24, 20:10-21 etc.) The New Testament tell's us to love God and our neighbor. The Old Test. tell's us how to do this. (as well as the New Testament to a certain degree). And so is the case with many other thing's that we are commanded to do/abstain from, in the New Testament )) (Here's something to think about: Jms 1:21-25 state's: 21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, (i.e. the Old Testament, and letter's of apostle's that may have been available at the time. The "cannon" wasn't complete at this time.) WHICH IS ABLE TO SAVE YOUR SOUL'S. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers (or reader's) only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer (or reader) of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.25 But he who looks into the perfect LAW OF LIBERTY (here the Old Testament is called the "perfect law of liberty") and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the WORK, THIS ONE WILL BE BLESSED in what he does. (NKJ) Now Jms. was written before A.D. 62. Matt. was written between A.D. 60-66; I Thes, A.D. 52 or 53; Gal, A.D. 56 or 57; Rom, A.D. 58; Eph, A.D. 61 or 62; Col, A.D. 61 or 62; Phil, A.D. 62 or 63; Heb, A.D. 62 or 63; I Tim, A.D. 65; Titus, A.D. 65; Jude, A.D. 65; II Tim, A.D. 68; I can't find date's for the other's. (source: Bible dict. and concordance). Hence. at the time that Jms wrote his epistle: I Thes, Gal, Rom, Eph, Col, and possibly Matt., were the ONLY New Test. book's in existence. (Book's that Jms may or may not have had copies of). And at least 9 of the New Testament Book's were either being written at the same time as Jms was; or at a later date; and being that the Jew's had synagogues in every city of the known world at that time, where the law of Moses was read every Sabbath, (Acts 15:21) And being that new's and letter's traveled very slowly at that time; Jms more than likely was referring to the Old Testament when he use's the word "word" in His epistle. So we cannot interpret this passage to be referring to the New Testament "cannon". It is interesting to note that in Act's 15:13-29, during the dispute about circumcision; James stand's up; quotes Amos 9:11-12, and Isa 45:21 together; then state's 4 thing's from the law that they were to abstain from (i.e. thing's contaminated by idol's, fornication (as defined in the law), strangled animals, and drinking blood.) Then reminds the apostle's that the law of Moses was well known in the gentile city’s due to the fact that Moses was read every Sabbath from "ancient generation's". And was STILL being read every Sabbath. Thus those who were ignorant could hear it any time they wanted. (but the text indicates that Moses was well known by the church their.) Hence, it wasn't necessary to send them anything more than the command's they sent.)

I conclude therefore, that insofar as Jesus and the Apostle's have not changed the law; the law is still in effect. But insofar as they have changed it; it is not valid.

 

[JohnR7]

I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?

Peter tells us exactly what he thinks about lawlessness: "Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing." (2Peter3:16,17)

There is NO difference between the Word of God and the Law of God. The Bible is all made up of the same Ancient Hebrew Letters. God is watching over HIS word to make sure all is accomplished according to His plan and purpose. "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. " (Matthew 5:18) Every time the pen touches the paper a dot is formed and the letter begins at that dot. A letter can have up to four strokes of the pen. The 5 books of the Torah written by Moses is made up of 600,000 pen strokes. They have a way to count them so the scribes did not make any mistakes or errors.

 

[JohnR7]

Jesus and the Apostle's have not changed the law

Only Jesus could add to what Moses received. Everyone else explains to us the teaching of Jesus and Moses. David in Psalm 119 has a tremendous love for the Law of God given for our safety and protection to keep us in the way of righteousness. I learned a lot from reading that Psalm. I was amazed when I saw the love David has for the Law of God and the Living Word of God.

 

[bud62]

I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?

The difference in the covenant is that GOD wrote the old covenant on stone witch was the commandments that HE wrote with HIS finger .
And the new covenant HE write the Ten commandments on our HEARTS .
REVELATION tells us that they have the faith of JESUS & they keep the COMMANDMENTS of GOD .GOD BLESS as HE sees FIT for you .

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The difference in the covenant is that GOD wrote the old covenant on stone witch was the commandments that HE wrote with HIS finger .
And the new covenant HE write the Ten commandments on our HEARTS .
REVELATION tells us that they have the faith of JESUS & they keep the COMMANDMENTS of GOD .GOD BLESS as HE sees FIT for you .

Great answer
but I don’t think It will move his cemented and hardening view on the law written and engraved on stone.
They say JESUS gives them grace but they need to try and keep the law written and engraved on stone, how do we explain the difference between the law written and engraved on stone and the law written on our hearts?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

jeez, you are STILL pushing the lie that the Law is divided into parts????

can you not learn anything? can you not see what is what when multiple people have pointed out the error in this theology??

I am STILL waiting for you to produce a greek word that says the Law is divided. the word " nomos" is defined as a primarily singular, as in ONE LAW!

The reason some people see devision In the law GOD gave to Moses written and engraved on stone and GODs law written on the hearts of HIS children Is that no one can keep GODs law written and engraved on stone because this Implies keeping GODs law In your own strength and JESUS said be perfect the way our FATHER In heaven IS PERFECT and we know that because of the weakness of our flesh no man except the son of man [JESUS] could be perfect the way GOD IS perfect because although man would delight In the law of GOD after the Inward man they would see another law warring against the law of their minds and bringing them Into captivity to the law of sin which Is In man from the seed of Adams flesh.

Romans 4:1-2
King James Version

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

 

[JohnR7]

how do we explain the difference between the law written and engraved on stone and the law written on our hearts?

We have a heart of stone and we are given a new heart. "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh." (Ezekial 36:26)

Moses said: "Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength." (Deut 6:5)

Jesus declared, “you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

Jesus added MIND. In the Hebrew they believe mind and heart are to be united as one.

 

[JohnR7]

Can we be under law and Grace?

Through the Grace of God we are able to keep the law, not through works of the flesh. The grace of God is an active force to transform us into the people that God created us to be. (Psalm 139:16) Grace is charis in Greek, Gift is charisma in Greek. This is why we are given gifts and grace is a gift given to us. The gifts work through us and the grace of God does work in us and though us. They say God will give to us what He can get through us to others. Charismatic churches teach a lot on the gifts. They like to focus on that.

Grace is to work though us and we are to show the Grace of God in the way we treat people. Just like all of the other Charismas (Gifts)