Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Grandpa]

But does the passage say "working at the law" or "works of the law"? which if it said what you've been saying, yes it would agree it means "doing the law".

But in the passage the greek word translated as "work" is a noun ("ergon") not a verb, meaning "tasks" or "deeds". Paul is talking about specific tasks enumerated in the law. But which one? All of them? Or specific ones?

Next, Paul establishes the context of which tasks he means with the word "justified".

Justification is specifically talking about "cleansing of oneself of their iniquity/sin". Purification.

The only tasks instructed in the law in context of "justification" (cleansing/restoration) are the purification rites: anything that has to do with blood being shed or separating oneself for cleanliness or forgiveness.

A work/task of the law here = a purification rite.

Notice the premise Paul establishes in chapter 2, setting up the situation. Peter is rebuked for separating himself from gentile believers and no longer eating with them, as if they're still unclean.

There is NO real difference between working at the law and works of the law.

One describes an action, working.

The other describes the noun, what they are, works of the law.

A person is working at the law and the result of that is works of the law.



But that is neither here nor there.

Paul doesn't separate the law into compartments and say "It is ok to work at this part but the Lord Jesus has abolished that Part".

The Lord Jesus Himself doesn't separate the law into compartments and say "I came to fulfill part of the law but the rest is on you".


So I would say this is your own construct and I suppose you must show how you came to this conclusion that the 10 commandments, sacrificing animals, and Moses instructions could be separated and abolished separately while some could still stand on their own.

I categorically disagree with that stance, btw, which I am sure you already know.... Which is the reason it is so difficult for us to have conversations on the bible and Christianity, imo. You have made Christianity about abolishing 2/3 of the law but continuing to work at the 10 commandments. IMO Christianity is ALL about our blessing in Christ and the WHOLE LAW, moses, sacrifices, and 10 c's are all finished for Christians.

My opinion is that it is only by the Fruit of the HOLY SPIRIT that the 10 commandments are obeyed. Not by people who look back to the 10 commandments to work at them in their own understanding.

In other words, the 10 commandments aren't for Christians. The Holy Spirit is for Christians. And the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit will not cause us to be ashamed before God.

But peoples work at the 10 commandments WILL cause them to be ashamed before God.


I tried to say all this without being accusatory. I hope I succeded in showing my extreme disagreement with your premise without including any kind of offense to you personally, if that can be done.

 

[DeighAnn]

So as you can see, You do not believe we are saved by grace, you believe we are saved by works. We merit salvation by of our own power making sure we continue to make the right decisions.

So as you can see, you are incorrect, not only of what I believe but of what you believe also

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Those come after. Not before. Hence unmerited WHEN GIVEN

Yep, But it is not earned AfTER, it is still by grace that we are saved.

As paul said are you so FOOLISH having begun in the spirit (grace) are you perfected in the flesh (merited)

You will never earn salvation, you can live in this earth as a believer for 1000 years. You still will never earn salvation

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So as you can see, you are incorrect, not only of what I believe but of what you believe also

Oh I proved my point, I am correct in what you believe. You believe people will not be in heave UNLESS they merit salvation by doing what you claimed is required to keep salvation.

Thats not grace, that is works..

Spin it however you want, it is works.

Once again, thanks for confirming what I already knew

 

[Grandpa]

Well? We agree on one thing these days, Grandpa.

It is my choice in not calling the the "Gospel Helmet" "hope FOR salvation", and NOT a CERTAINTY!

Too many "dinged up" casualties, preaching "Don't go out there!" "We've been there!" "It's MUCH SAFER HERE, in the "bosom" of God's Grace!"

I can't tell anyone where to go or where not to go.

But what I can tell them is they can be CERTAIN of the Promises of God.

 

[DeighAnn]

As for Jesus, He died BECAUSE we can not keep the law..

But you see, all things are possible in the spirit. AND NOW WE ARE IN THE SPIRIT. WITH OUT THE SPIRIT IT COULD NOT BE DONE. NOW IT IS OUR DUTY.

Romans 6:14 Sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin [break the law] because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!”


Romans 3:31 “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 5:21
so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Eternal life is given by grace, If it can ever be lost, it must be earned, and is not by grace. Even if you think we do nto actually get eternal life until after we die. It still, as shown here, is by grace that we recieve it..You can not say you believe in is unmerited, then claim it must be merited.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But you see, all things are possible in the spirit. AND NOW WE ARE IN THE SPIRIT. WITH OUT THE SPIRIT IT COULD NOT BE DONE. NOW IT IS OUR DUTY.

Romans 6:14 Sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin [break the law] because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!”


Romans 3:31 “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law”

Yep we establish th elaw.

I never said otherwise.

The law was our schoolmaster to bring us to faith, If we have true living gfaith in jesus, we establish the law.

It is not saying what you think it says..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can't tell anyone where to go or where not to go.

But what I can tell them is they can be CERTAIN of the Promises of God.

Just like john told us we can be CERTAIN we HAVE eternal life. And like paul said we can be CERTAIN that he who began a good work in us, WILL complete it.

 

[DeighAnn]

Spin it however you want, it is works.

YOU accuse, you spin. You are the one saying "break one, break them all, done" If you don't believe me go back and look for yourself. It is all written.

 

[SimpleGardner]

My doctrine EMPOWERS people to keep Gods laws. it offers them the POWER to keep Gods laws. And it offers the MOTIVATION to keep gods laws.

My attempt ws to show that people also use obedience to commands to justify themselves (we see this in the NT also.

So, who are "that people" who use the laws to justify themselves? Not seeing it here. Show me.

If you ear of someone who speaks in terms of endearment of the Will and Laws of God do you just assume they are legalists? Yes! Have you ever called me a legalist, or a Judiazer, or worse? If so, why? After all this thread is a discussion about the Law, isn't it? Yep.

I think you have literally stood out as a warning to many of the young Christians on here to take care not to think poorly of being obedient to the Laws of God, and not because of anything I said, but the things you said. You position, no matter how well meaning is not consistent with scripture EG, and that is not an opinion.

Hope you find an opportunity to fast and pray and put your doctrinal position on the alter before God just as I have mine many , many times and let Him burn off what is not of Him. We know there is a great deception to keep our eyes open for. Perhaps one of us has fallen into it. I do not think it is me.

I don't dislike you EG, I do find your aggression a bit much at times, not lately, at least not to me, but that is not what brings people into unity is it? Unity is to be both led by the Holy Spirit hence in a constant state of repentance and humility before God.

SG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

YOU accuse, you spin. You are the one saying "break one, break them all, done" If you don't believe me go back and look for yourself. It is all written.

1. James said break one your done (cursed) , I just repeated what he said (as did moses and paul)
2. And I am true when I say you believe in works, you just proved it yourself. You said things must be done of your own power or your salvation will be lost..

What amases me, is you will not own up to what you really believe,, Why do you lack confidenc ein your own belief?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So, who are "that people" who use the laws to justify themselves? Not seeing it here. Show me.

If you ear of someone who speaks in terms of endearment of the Will and Laws of God do you just assume they are legalists? Yes! Have you ever called me a legalist, or a Judiazer, or worse? If so, why? After all this thread is a discussion about the Law, isn't it? Yep.

I think you have literally stood out as a warning to many of the young Christians on here to take care not to think poorly of being obedient to the Laws of God, and not because of anything I said, but the things you said. You position, no matter how well meaning is not consistent with scripture EG, and that is not an opinion.

Hope you find an opportunity to fast and pray and put your doctrinal position on the alter before God just as I have mine many , many times and let Him burn off what is not of Him. We know there is a great deception to keep our eyes open for. Perhaps one of us has fallen into it. I do not think it is me.

I don't dislike you EG, I do find your aggression a bit much at times, not lately, at least not to me, but that is not what brings people into unity is it? Unity is to be both led by the Holy Spirit hence in a constant state of repentance and humility before God.

SG

Once again.

If you want to say something about what you deem as agression. Look to yourself. Because you are one of the most agressive people I see here by what you say yet you continue to deny it

The pharisees loved Gods law. And got mad when people sai they did not. So just saying you love Gods law does not mean you really do.

If you really loved gods law you would be trained by it, and would know its place. And you would allow it to bring you as a schoolmaster to faith in christ then you would look to what really empowers us to be obedient children, and realize, the law has no place in your life right now.. because it accomplished its task in yoru life. Just like Jesus accomplish his task in fulfilling the law, every aspect of it.

 

[DeighAnn]

Philipians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.

I have been given the faith needed to follow the law of righteousness. I do NOT FOLLOW TO ATTAIN WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN GIVEN, WHAT I ALREADY POSSESS.

CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW "BACKWARDS" THAT TYPE OF THINKING IS?

IT IS ABOUT OSAS, A doctrine of man. Which requires the Word of God "to be changed" to accommodate it.

Once again, you call me unsaved, because I believe in His Law, written within, my heart and mind. I am not ashamed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So, who are "that people" who use the laws to justify themselves? Not seeing it here. Show me.

Lets see, The jews did

Many legalistic people who call them christians (we also call them judaisers) do.

How can you tell who they are? Mostly they will claim they have obeyed the law and or they are obeying the law. And this is why they will be saved. (Yes we have had a few in here say this, just ask around)

Something else they will claim, is that certain sins can cancel out our grace gift of eternal life. Thus salvation can be lost by not making sure we do not break those commands.. That if we do nto love and keep the commands, our salvation is in question.


Once again, If you want to respond to somethign I say, I pray you look at context and not just go off half cocked like you tend to like to do..If you go back and look a the context which I made that post to th eposter I responded to. You should NEVER have responded like you did!

It would be nice to have a normal conversation like we did when you first entered the chat room.

 

[DeighAnn]

What amases me, is you will not own up to what you really believe,, Why do you lack confidenc ein your own belief?[/QUOTE



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My Reply

I STATE what I believe again and again and again. My beliefs render your beliefs "impossible". So you call me names. I get it. Your order of events have to be changed. Flipped upside down.

If the gift comes first, then I can't work for it. If I worked for it then got it, it would not be a gift. It is most basic or less

 

[DeighAnn]

1. James said break one your done (cursed) , I just repeated what he said (as did moses and paul)

My Reply ( see my signature ) where it says Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law......

 

[SoulWeaver]

If we are these perfect people who never fail when we become disciples, where's God's glory? Then we "earned" the Kingdom of God.
There are multiple accounts that the disciples of Jesus made mistakes, even severe mistakes.
I can just imagine a lot people on the forums would be telling apostle Peter he surely lost his salvation when he renounced Jesus three times, or maybe that he was never saved. But Jesus called Peter Cephas, The Rock, when He first saw him, and ultimately made out of Peter what He pleased.

Matthew 18:21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Jesus obviously does not mean literally forgive up to 77 times. Or even forgive "a lot".
Jesus teaches forgive, until they are perfected. (7 signifying the Holy Spirit/holiness)
Sanctification unto perfection through forgiveness.
Forgiveness shatters evil. You do not sin more because you're being forgiven. You sin less. Because forgiveness has transforming power.
You know that moment when you crack on the inside and realize there's nothing more worthy of glory and more beautiful than Jesus and you know you'll follow Him all your life because there is really no one else to go to?
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Take the story of Hosea and Gomer. God commanded Hosea to marry Gomer as a sign to us, because His people at all times of history were just like her. In the end, Gomer finally "got it". She'd come to know the unfailing love through Hosea. And she didn't leave Hosea anymore from then on.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Once again.

If you want to say something about what you deem as agression. Look to yourself. Because you are one of the most agressive people I see here by what you say yet you continue to deny it

The pharisees loved Gods law. And got mad when people sai they did not. So just saying you love Gods law does not mean you really do.

If you really loved gods law you would be trained by it, and would know its place. And you would allow it to bring you as a schoolmaster to faith in christ then you would look to what really empowers us to be obedient children, and realize, the law has no place in your life right now.. because it accomplished its task in yoru life. Just like Jesus accomplish his task in fulfilling the law, every aspect of it.

I think it is how you choose to read my words.

As far as the the Pharisees, they were hypocrites who hated Gods Laws and instead justified violations of them by instead adhering to what previous Pharisees and teachers (traditions of the fathers) prescribed. They literally reversed, REVERSED, every one of the ten commandments through their traditions and created systems of burden and harassment of the people through their written traditions. No one could bear up under them, and even since the time of Yahshua' first advent, they have enhanced them even more and they grow more and more anti-Christ year after year. This is who the Pharisees were/are, not how you framed it; "The pharisees loved Gods law" I do not know how you arrived at that about the Pharisees, but I think I corrected that before. Even Paul admitted to being zealous to the traditions of the fathers;

Gal 1:14 KJV And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Yep, Paul was showing his previous zeal for Talmusdism when he was a Pharisee. Yahshua delivered him from it. This is what Yahshua condemned;

Mar 7:7-9 KJV Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (8) For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. (9) And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

For once I wish you would read these words and remember them so as to NOT ever try to foist the lie that the Pharisees were anything but a bunch of hypocrites and a few other things.

 

[SimpleGardner]

How can you tell who they are? Mostly they will claim they have obeyed the law and or they are obeying the law. And this is why they will be saved. (Yes we have had a few in here say this, just ask around)

Your identification is getting a little fuzzy here EG. So you are criticizing people here who love God and His Laws for something the Jews do and some other "Self Professing Judiazers" is that right? You haven't talked specifics here, which is what I want otherwise take your criticisms to those people.