Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?
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Acts 13 -
6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.
Did Paul not "kill / stone" him because he was a man? (lol)
6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.
Did Paul not "kill / stone" him because he was a man? (lol)
What do we do when the law of the land conflicts with the law of God? I think Peter and John say something about we must follow the ways of God rather than human rules. And if I remember the story of Daniels three friends, they refuse to bow down to the image which was the law. and I think Daniel was thrown into the lions den for breaking the law which was to pray to no one except the king for a certain period of time.
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Okay, so if I'm following you right, in your view we don't need to do anything related to animal sacrifices or circumcision or going through a priest at the temple to get to God. And we can safely set aside anything forbidden by the human government in our area as long as it doesn't involve worship of other gods.
Shall we practice this?
Exodus 22: 10. If a man puts an ass or an ox or a sheep or any beast into the keeping of his neighbour, and it comes to death or is damaged or is taken away, without any person seeing it: 11. If he takes his oath before the Lord that he has not put his hand to his neighbour's goods, the owner is to take his word for it and he will not have to make payment for it.
Shall we practice this?
Exodus 22: 10. If a man puts an ass or an ox or a sheep or any beast into the keeping of his neighbour, and it comes to death or is damaged or is taken away, without any person seeing it: 11. If he takes his oath before the Lord that he has not put his hand to his neighbour's goods, the owner is to take his word for it and he will not have to make payment for it.
Absolutely, why wouldn't you take a mans word that has taken an oath before God. Unless of course, Gods will for your neighbors life and your life is isn't good enough for you and your will for your life is more important. And I also believe when you steal you should have to give back more than you took. It would seem to me that you don't like Gods Laws. Maybe you should ask yourself this question instead of asking me my positions on all of them. Ready? When I read this Law, what do I learn about God and who He is and what He feels and what makes Him happy and what He cares about and Why He has given this to me. What is He showing me or telling me? How can knowing this improve my relationship with Him? And sometimes you will find your self really happy thinking God and I are walking hand and hand here, and sometimes you may find you want to change something because you are making Him sad for no reason you even knew about. Every Word God given us is CONVERSATION with Him. I like to converse with God because the more I know HIS WORD the more HIS WORD speaks to me. And that is a lot of wisdom and knowledge about everything. It is all good and there is nothing in it that is bad. Why are you so offended that I am happy knowing the guidelines. If GOD is the same yesterday, and forever and they were important enough to spend His TIme so that HIS PEOPLE would follow them and those people were so ???? sottish with all He has done for them that they couldn't even do a bit for Him, well as for me, I am going to HAPPILY try my best and I don't know if you have really read about the grumbling people but God seems to really not like that. Just saying. Shall we practice this??
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if I understand Jesus right on The sermon on the Mount, he says not to take an oath. So what would be the situation when we encounter a law that requires taking an oath?
I love God's law!
I will happily answer and talk about any questions related to God's law or the scriptures all day long!
what I learn about God when I read this law, is that God doesn't like oppression, he loves fairness. He cares about justice,and he has given this to me so I can know him!
Jeremiah 9: 23. This is the word of the Lord: Let not the wise man take pride in his wisdom, or the strong man in his strength, or the man of wealth in his wealth: 24. But if any man has pride, let it be in this, that he has the wisdom to have knowledge of me, that I am the Lord, working mercy, giving true decisions, and doing righteousness in the earth: for in these things I have delight, says the Lord.
It does seem interesting to me that once one steps outside of the Jewish world, people no longer seem interested in talking about the specifics of the law, the nitty-gritty details. I once heard a Jewish podcast in which a rabbi spoke for like 30 minutes on the subject of how long a piece of Torah scroll had to be before it was lawful to go into a burning house and rescue it on the Sabbath.
Anyways, are you finding our discussion edifying and did you want to continue talking with me? Please let me know.
I love God's law!
I will happily answer and talk about any questions related to God's law or the scriptures all day long!
what I learn about God when I read this law, is that God doesn't like oppression, he loves fairness. He cares about justice,and he has given this to me so I can know him!
Jeremiah 9: 23. This is the word of the Lord: Let not the wise man take pride in his wisdom, or the strong man in his strength, or the man of wealth in his wealth: 24. But if any man has pride, let it be in this, that he has the wisdom to have knowledge of me, that I am the Lord, working mercy, giving true decisions, and doing righteousness in the earth: for in these things I have delight, says the Lord.
It does seem interesting to me that once one steps outside of the Jewish world, people no longer seem interested in talking about the specifics of the law, the nitty-gritty details. I once heard a Jewish podcast in which a rabbi spoke for like 30 minutes on the subject of how long a piece of Torah scroll had to be before it was lawful to go into a burning house and rescue it on the Sabbath.
Anyways, are you finding our discussion edifying and did you want to continue talking with me? Please let me know.
Here's another great thing that we can learn from the law that I remember reading many years ago
Exodus 20: 24. You shall make an altar of earth for me, and shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your cattle. In every place where I record my name I will come to you and I will bless you.
God doesn't need fancy stuff, he wants an altar made out of dirt. Think how many churches today are in trouble because of the financial burden of their building. But God doesn't need stained glass or an expensive sound system! Just basic everyday stuff is just fine!
Exodus 20: 24. You shall make an altar of earth for me, and shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your cattle. In every place where I record my name I will come to you and I will bless you.
God doesn't need fancy stuff, he wants an altar made out of dirt. Think how many churches today are in trouble because of the financial burden of their building. But God doesn't need stained glass or an expensive sound system! Just basic everyday stuff is just fine!
Where is the length of a piece of Torah scroll written? I honestly cant remember ever reading that. No, I love your reply. I could talk scripture all the time myself. I am absolutely positive I know a ton of the Word at the same time I know nothing. Sometimes I have revelations of the most basic, simple, easy to understand things though it takes me 30 years, and some hard to understand things after 3 days. The only thing I know for sure is the more I know, the more I am aware of how much I do not know. And I love it all. As long as it comes out of the Bible. I do not know anything about "religions", nor do I want to. I do not know "names or terms" a lot of people use, I did not go to school for this. I love the Word and I told myself when I find a flaw or I finish, I will look elsewhere but till then there is enough in there to keep me more than busy.
="eternally-gratefull, post: 3944906, member: 82611"]This is not what Paul says,
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
Blik: You are misunderstanding Paul. Paul is telling you that if you depend on the Law instead of depending on Christ for salvation it is putting you under the curse.
EG: In fact Paul goes on to say if you want to follow one aspect of the law. Your indebted to follow the whole law
In this case, the example was circumcision..
Gal 5: And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is [b]a debtor to keep the whole law.
Blik: It is the physical act of circumcision that Paul is speaking of, not the spiritual. If you rely on what you do physically without the will and spirit then you would have to be perfect.
EG: But would this not apply to all the law?
And James, does he not say (to christians) if you keep the whole law. Yet fall in one point, are you not guilty of the whole law?
James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
Blik: It is wrong to read into these inspired words from the Lord that we should not listen to the Lord, as saying the ten commandments are not of God. If it was true that Paul told us to turn from the inspired word of Moses and say that there is inspired scripture that is not true then all scripture would be unreliable.
The Hebrews were given directions to follow to help them walk with the lord like circumcision and dietary laws. Paul said they were like schoolmasters and we are to listen to the Holy Spirit to guide us to the same things circumcision and dietary laws were to guide them to. It is scripture, and it was direction given to them by the Holy God, we are told to learn from them as all scripture is for us. But they were not the spirit of the law of the Lord. We are to follow those laws as the ten commandments show us. The holy law can be summed up by love, and each commandment is how we act as an expression of love.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
Blik: You are misunderstanding Paul. Paul is telling you that if you depend on the Law instead of depending on Christ for salvation it is putting you under the curse.
EG: In fact Paul goes on to say if you want to follow one aspect of the law. Your indebted to follow the whole law
In this case, the example was circumcision..
Gal 5: And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is [b]a debtor to keep the whole law.
Blik: It is the physical act of circumcision that Paul is speaking of, not the spiritual. If you rely on what you do physically without the will and spirit then you would have to be perfect.
EG: But would this not apply to all the law?
And James, does he not say (to christians) if you keep the whole law. Yet fall in one point, are you not guilty of the whole law?
James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
Blik: It is wrong to read into these inspired words from the Lord that we should not listen to the Lord, as saying the ten commandments are not of God. If it was true that Paul told us to turn from the inspired word of Moses and say that there is inspired scripture that is not true then all scripture would be unreliable.
The Hebrews were given directions to follow to help them walk with the lord like circumcision and dietary laws. Paul said they were like schoolmasters and we are to listen to the Holy Spirit to guide us to the same things circumcision and dietary laws were to guide them to. It is scripture, and it was direction given to them by the Holy God, we are told to learn from them as all scripture is for us. But they were not the spirit of the law of the Lord. We are to follow those laws as the ten commandments show us. The holy law can be summed up by love, and each commandment is how we act as an expression of love.
What I see you claiming, in essence, is that if God ever spoke to anyone regarding His requirements for them, that those requirements are applicable to everyone who desires a relationship with God. That's a massive assumption, and I believe that it is not supported by Scripture.
In Scripture it is clear that Israel was (is) God's people chosen both to exemplify separation from the world and to provide a lineage for Jesus. Under the Sinaitic covenant, Israel was to follow the Law. Any gentiles who wanted to join themselves to Israel under that covenant had to abide by the Law also.
That is not the case under the new covenant. Rather, it is made clear that gentiles are not required to abide by the Law in order to join the Church, because the Church does not exist by the Sinaitic covenant at all, but by the new covenant in Christ's blood. Acts 15 speaks to this, as does much of Galatians. If you try to read Galatians as saying that we (Christians) still need to follow the Law, you are completely misreading it.
If all that the blood of Christ does is bring us under Law, we are doomed and hopeless. Jesus did NOT die on the cross so that we would be subject to the Law. He died to set us free: from bondage to sin and bondage to the Law. If you continue to try to relate to God through the Law, you are doing exactly that against which Paul railed. You would prefer slavery in the master's house to the freedom of sonship.
Reading the Law and concluding that it was written and is presently applicable to you is somewhat like reading someone else's job description, doing the tasks, and then going to the boss and claiming that you've done your job. It just wasn't written to you, and the boss never intended for you to subscribe to it.
In Scripture it is clear that Israel was (is) God's people chosen both to exemplify separation from the world and to provide a lineage for Jesus. Under the Sinaitic covenant, Israel was to follow the Law. Any gentiles who wanted to join themselves to Israel under that covenant had to abide by the Law also.
That is not the case under the new covenant. Rather, it is made clear that gentiles are not required to abide by the Law in order to join the Church, because the Church does not exist by the Sinaitic covenant at all, but by the new covenant in Christ's blood. Acts 15 speaks to this, as does much of Galatians. If you try to read Galatians as saying that we (Christians) still need to follow the Law, you are completely misreading it.
If all that the blood of Christ does is bring us under Law, we are doomed and hopeless. Jesus did NOT die on the cross so that we would be subject to the Law. He died to set us free: from bondage to sin and bondage to the Law. If you continue to try to relate to God through the Law, you are doing exactly that against which Paul railed. You would prefer slavery in the master's house to the freedom of sonship.
Reading the Law and concluding that it was written and is presently applicable to you is somewhat like reading someone else's job description, doing the tasks, and then going to the boss and claiming that you've done your job. It just wasn't written to you, and the boss never intended for you to subscribe to it.
Why do so many have to "get rid of 'em all"? Sinners can now make it into heaven "not being perfect in the law" because we are made perfect through the blood of Christ, yet it does not negate them. Following them should be super easy because of the Spirit driven, no longer flesh driven soul. They are the "guidelines" so we can know where we stand and what we need to repent for. If sin is transgression of the law, and the law is done away with, then so is sin and all evil becomes acceptable. Any way, I like the spirit of your writing and thought I would tell you.
I like this, for we are made righteous through Christ, and Yippee, here we are without sin and righteous. However, as Paul pointed out we give our will to Christ, now, and live with him but we find ourselves doing and thinking by the pull of the flesh that we also are, so we always need Christ and what Christ has done for us.
You cannot separate the Holy Law, the spirit of the law, from God.
You cannot separate the Holy Law, the spirit of the law, from God.
!First off who is Israel? Jacob renamed Israel had 12 sons who make up "Israel" Gods People. 2 tribes went into Egyptian captivity, 10 Assyrian. After the 10 were released, they scattered the earth like sands of the sea or stars of the sky or dust of the earth what ever they cover the earth. They don't know who they are but you can BET God does. So MOST LIKELY the CHRISTIANS of today who MOSTLY LIKELY make up the Christian Nations are GODs Israel who make up the Church who make up the Body of Christ who the laws were written for.
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
BECAUSE "THEY" CONTINUED NOT IN MY COVENANT. Who had the problem with the Law? NOT GOD. HE HAD TO MAKE IT EASIER, NO MATTER THE COST TO HIMSELF. THAT IS HOW MUCH HE LOVES US.
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS because I AM GETTING RID OF THEM? THEY DON'T APPLY TO THEM?? REALLY???
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
What does not come to destroy mean? What does one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law mean? Or are you saying this only applies to "some" of Gods people but not all of Gods people even though He is not a respecter of persons? Or did it apply only while Jesus was walking the earth? Are there only some who can break the lease commandments and be ok? Does it apply to everyone, some people, or no one? Do you get in trouble if you don't teach it to some but you are ok if you only just teach it to some? So do we teach it to be great in Heaven or do we teach to not teach to be great in heaven? Does our righteousness have to exceed the Pharisees to get into heaven and if it does and there is no law how do we do that? I am so confused.
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
BECAUSE "THEY" CONTINUED NOT IN MY COVENANT. Who had the problem with the Law? NOT GOD. HE HAD TO MAKE IT EASIER, NO MATTER THE COST TO HIMSELF. THAT IS HOW MUCH HE LOVES US.
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS because I AM GETTING RID OF THEM? THEY DON'T APPLY TO THEM?? REALLY???
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
What does not come to destroy mean? What does one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law mean? Or are you saying this only applies to "some" of Gods people but not all of Gods people even though He is not a respecter of persons? Or did it apply only while Jesus was walking the earth? Are there only some who can break the lease commandments and be ok? Does it apply to everyone, some people, or no one? Do you get in trouble if you don't teach it to some but you are ok if you only just teach it to some? So do we teach it to be great in Heaven or do we teach to not teach to be great in heaven? Does our righteousness have to exceed the Pharisees to get into heaven and if it does and there is no law how do we do that? I am so confused.
It is the same question with the same answer. Render unto ceasar and render unto God. Follow the law of the land UNLESS it has anything to do with the worshipping of the one and only God. Like if I was in the military and I was in combat and fighting for my country and killing people. God says do not kill, yet doing what I am doing would seem to go against Gods law but at the same time is doesn't. So I would think that you better know what God wants. You know there is also that problem of "if it convicts you" it is sin to you. I think that is where knowing ALL the Word is important. The wisdom you receive from God allows you to do it His way. And doing it His way, would never be breaking His Law. So tell me, What would you do?
Babylonian captivity, not Egyptian.
That's a huge assumption, with no evidence to support it, so I'm going to discard it as irrelevant. The Bible says "gentiles", I'm going with "gentiles"; i.e. non-Israel.
Are the comments in red yours or someone else's?
Jesus didn't come to abolish, but to fulfill. The problem with most Judaizers is that although they understand what "abolish" means, their comprehension stops there. None that I have encountered understands what "fulfill" means.
If the mortgage is fulfilled, do you still make payments? If the obligation is fulfilled, is anything else left undone? Did Jesus say that He fulfilled part of the Law but not the rest?
If Jesus fulfilled the Law, why do Judaizers claim that Christians need to obey it? "Here; even though Jesus paid the mortgage in full, you need to keep making payments on it. You need to follow this and that and do and don't do so that you demonstrate appropriately your love for and submission to God." What they don't add is "because clearly, whatever Jesus did wasn't sufficient."
The old covenant was fulfilled at the cross; the new covenant was initiated. No more does our relationship with God depend on our adherence to the Law; now it depends fully on our faith in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ.
A tip for you, as you say you're confused: regarding Scripture, when there is a passage you find confusing, look for another passage on the same subject that is clear, and interpret what is unclear in light of what is clear. Acts 15 and Galatians 2-3 are clear; gentiles are not subject to the Law. We are grafted in by faith, not by obedience.
That's a huge assumption, with no evidence to support it, so I'm going to discard it as irrelevant. The Bible says "gentiles", I'm going with "gentiles"; i.e. non-Israel.
Are the comments in red yours or someone else's?
Jesus didn't come to abolish, but to fulfill. The problem with most Judaizers is that although they understand what "abolish" means, their comprehension stops there. None that I have encountered understands what "fulfill" means.
If the mortgage is fulfilled, do you still make payments? If the obligation is fulfilled, is anything else left undone? Did Jesus say that He fulfilled part of the Law but not the rest?
If Jesus fulfilled the Law, why do Judaizers claim that Christians need to obey it? "Here; even though Jesus paid the mortgage in full, you need to keep making payments on it. You need to follow this and that and do and don't do so that you demonstrate appropriately your love for and submission to God." What they don't add is "because clearly, whatever Jesus did wasn't sufficient."
The old covenant was fulfilled at the cross; the new covenant was initiated. No more does our relationship with God depend on our adherence to the Law; now it depends fully on our faith in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ.
A tip for you, as you say you're confused: regarding Scripture, when there is a passage you find confusing, look for another passage on the same subject that is clear, and interpret what is unclear in light of what is clear. Acts 15 and Galatians 2-3 are clear; gentiles are not subject to the Law. We are grafted in by faith, not by obedience.
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