Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[BillyBob]

They heard the Gospel and rejected it QUENCHING the Holy Spirit's attempt to Regenerate them.

That is exactly what I have been saying! Hearing is not enough. It also takes a work of the Spirit, and that does not happen for everyone.

 

[Rufus]

The theology of John Calvin contends that before the foundation of the world, God elected certain ones (both angels and men) to be saved, and others to be lost.

There is no biblical basis for this. In the opening remarks of his first letter to the brethren at Thessalonica, Paul makes an interesting comment which helps put this topic into proper focus.

“Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father; knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election, how that our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance; even as ye know what manner of men we showed ourselves toward you for your sake” (1 Thes. 1:1-5).

In verse four, the apostle reminds them of their “election.” The original term merely denotes one who has been selected. The nature of the selection must be determined by additional information.

In this instance, the context clarifies the matter. The election was effected through the proclamation of the gospel and these folks’ acceptance of the same.

Underline “election” (v. 4), and “gospel” (v. 5), and connect the two words with a line. Marginally note: Election is through acceptance of the gospel.

This is further corroborated by a statement in Paul’s second letter to these same Christians: “... he [God] called you through the gospel ...” (2 Thes. 2:14).

The Bible knows nothing of an arbitrary divine election separate from human responsibility.

The theology of John Calvin contends that before the foundation of the world, God elected certain ones (both angels and men) to be saved, and others to be lost.

There is no biblical basis for this. In the opening remarks of his first letter to the brethren at Thessalonica, Paul makes an interesting comment which helps put this topic into proper focus.

“Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father; knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election, how that our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance; even as ye know what manner of men we showed ourselves toward you for your sake” (1 Thes. 1:1-5).

In verse four, the apostle reminds them of their “election.” The original term merely denotes one who has been selected. The nature of the selection must be determined by additional information.

In this instance, the context clarifies the matter. The election was effected through the proclamation of the gospel and these folks’ acceptance of the same.

Underline “election” (v. 4), and “gospel” (v. 5), and connect the two words with a line. Marginally note: Election is through acceptance of the gospel.

This is further corroborated by a statement in Paul’s second letter to these same Christians: “... he [God] called you through the gospel ...” (2 Thes. 2:14).

The Bible knows nothing of an arbitrary divine election separate from human responsibility.

Not true, brother. God's sovereign will is not contingent on any of his moral, rational creatures. He works ALL things after the counsel of his own will (Eph 1:11) and in accordance with his own purpose (2Tim 1:9). And these truths are further collaborated with Paul's famous exposition of God's Sovereign Grace in Romans 9.

And we should never lose the reason behind that exposition which is stated very clearly in the first 9 verses of the above chapter. In spite of what many Arminian commentators say, Paul is most definitely laying out the reason why God's word has not failed with respect to Israel's salvation (v.6). He's telling us that it hasn't failed because it was never the natural descendants (i.e. "children of the flesh" who were God's children, rather it was always the children of promise (children born supernaturally and chosen from above)! And who are these "children of promise"? None other than God's elect! And so Paul next begins to prove his premise from the historical accounts of Ishmael and Issac, to which he's alluding (v.9) and then again with Issac's twins Jacob and Esau (vv.10-13.)

Here is what is so fascinating with these two historical examples: In the case of Hagar and Ishmael we have a graphic spiritual picture of what all unregenerate sinners look like -- "born of and only of the flesh". In the case of Issac, we have just the opposite. We have the spiritual picture of God supernaturally intervening by opening Sarah's womb so that she could conceive. What is emphasized in this example is the omnipotent power of God.

But the picture is even more profound in the case of Jacob and Esau since the twins came out of the same womb. Yet even so, it was God's sovereign will that the younger twin Issac be heir to the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant, and conversely that Esau be excluded from participating in those covenant promises. So what is being strongly emphasized with these twins is the sovereignty of God's eternal decrees. And to drive home this point even harder so that the sovereignty of God's decrees (grace) cannot be missed (even though it often is intentionally!) is that this decree of God occurred in eternity and without any regard whatsoever to the future conduct or behavior of either of the twins, proving conclusively that our election is not contingent upon us! It's no wonder, then, that Paul could write what he did in vv. 14-16, is it!? It truly does not depend on man's choice as to whether we want to become children of God or not [through faith]! None of God's sovereign, eternal decrees are contingent on anyone's else's choices.

And then finally, to drive the last nail in his argument Paul proves what he said earlier in this epistle which was that all men are sinners! Pual went on to say that God took from one sinful, depraved, corrupt lump of clay and he made two lumps -- one lump he set aside for noble purposes (his elect) and the other lump (unsaved) remained for "common use". And Paul said, God has a right to do with his creation as he sees fit!

You may erroneously conclude from all this that God's decrees are arbitrary if uncondtional electon is true, but this is not the case. The reason anyone would conclude this is because none of us are privy to the Big Picture -- of how all God's decrees are weaved into his eternal Redemptive Mosaic. So, because we finite creatures can only see and appreciate an infinitesimally smaller picture, many of us are prone to conclude that God acts arbitrarily. But it's impossible for a loving, just, omniscient, all-wise God to act in such a manner. God acts not only according to the counsel of his own will, but also according to his good pleasure and to accomplish his eternal purposes as the Soverign King of this Universe.

Conclusion: The only reason any of us came to saving faith in Jesus Christ because we were predestined to do so in eternity. Therefore, God himself, apart from our knowledge for most of our lives largely, was working in each of our lives day by day, moment by moment, to bring us to the place of faith and repenatance in temporal reality. This is why I marvel at his incomprehensible grace every day of my existence.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

It actually says it was given them. Then Jesus goes on to explain what was given...the ability to understand. The context doesn't limit it to simply them. It merely compares them to those whom it is not given to.

It says the Disciples asked. Jesus said it's given to you not them.

This is directly for Disciples only.

 

[HeIsHere]

I stated my objection. I don't claim it to be your motive or that I am personally offended. And in individual discussions, the use of labels might even prove helpful to the discussion. But you don't have to check out but even a few threads to see evidence of what I posited.

Yes, I can agree that most people (not me of course ) get their kni***rs in a knot with labels.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

That is exactly what I have been saying! Hearing is not enough. It also takes a work of the Spirit, and that does not happen for everyone.

I've quoted scripture that hearing the word in power brings regeneration.
But if you can quench the Spirit, it means you can hear and say don't want no part of that.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You cant hear the Gospel Spiritually without being born again, regenerated. Faith is fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

Jesus specifically said one must be of God to hear His words Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Vs 43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Paul says you first hear the word in power and then you get regenerated.
If the preacher doesn't speak by the power of God no one who hears can be regenerated.
Face it, you don't match up to Paul's explanation. You just can't make it up because you don't have the ability to understand the truth.

 

[Cameron143]

I understood that, I was agreeing with you and adding comments. Dont get defensive on me

I'm never defensive. Unfortunately, I am sometimes offensive.

 

[Rufus]

The OP states: Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

Does anyone actually think that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, who created the world, was only partially successful??

God died for all people. Those who accept his sacrifice in lieu of theirs are saved and have eternal life. Those who do not accept His sacrifice for themselves are eternally doomed.

End of story!

Actually, "partially successful" is a gross understatement. A more accurate depiction would be more along the lines of Epic Failure if only a remnant is being saved.

 

[Magenta]

Do you believe only the disciples could understand the parables?

Erm... the disciples didn't understand the parables. They needed to have Jesus explain them...

It actually says it was given them. Then Jesus goes on to explain what was given...the ability to understand.
The context doesn't limit it to simply them. It merely compares them to those whom it is not given to.

Ah! Yes

 

[Magenta]

I'm never defensive. Unfortunately, I am sometimes offensive.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.....

 

[Cameron143]

It says the Disciples asked. Jesus said it's given to you not them.

This is directly for Disciples only.

It was spoken to the Disciples and true of them. But that doesn't mean application is limited to them. But we disagree on this point. Grace and peace.

 

[Cameron143]

Erm... the disciples didn't understand the parables. They needed to have Jesus explain them...




Ah! Yes

1 out of 2 is good for me.

 

[Rufus]

We all are the products of the influences of our lives. Some we choose; some are chosen for us. But I have studied the works of neither Calvin nor Augustine. And because it is easier to label people's ideas and dismiss them than it is to actually understand through scripture why someone has drawn the conclusions they have, one actually belittles another by employing such labels. This is my objection to easily dispersed labels.

Very well stated! What invariably happens is that labels result in stereotyping.

We have a lot in common. While I'm "familiar" with the works of Calvin and Augustine, I have studied neither per se. I came to the Five Doctrines on Grace solely by the Word and Holy Spirit giving me understanding.

 

[BillyBob]

We have a lot in common. While I'm "familiar" with the works of Calvin and Augustine, I have studied neither per se. I came to the Five Doctrines on Grace solely by the Word and Holy Spirit giving me understanding.

Just curious! Are you TulipBee under a new name? I have not seen posts from him lately and I enjoyed his humor....

 

[Magenta]

Grace and peace.

Grace and peace to you

 

[Magenta]

Just curious! Are you TulipBee under a new name? I have not seen posts from him lately and I enjoyed his humor....

Last seen Jan 25, 2024

 

[Cameron143]

Grace and peace to you

Thanks for sharing. Love Fernando Ortega.

 

[Rufus]

I've quoted scripture that hearing the word in power brings regeneration.
But if you can quench the Spirit, it means you can hear and say don't want no part of that.

Except the passage you quoted doesn't say that. You're reading your own personal presupposition into a passage that has nothing to do with the doctrine of regeneration.

 

[Rufus]

Just curious! Are you TulipBee under a new name? I have not seen posts from him lately and I enjoyed his humor....

Nope. I'm not. But I Shirely do conjure up a sense of humor every now and again.

 

[Magenta]

Thanks for sharing. Love Fernando Ortega.

You Are Welcome! God Bless You