Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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BillyBob said:
Hearing is important, and it does come first! However, hearing (in and of itself) will not change your heart. It takes a working of the Spirit within the persons heart (in addition to hearing) to soften the heart so that it will receive what is heard. To think otherwise, would do away with the 3rd person of the trinity.
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The key about the SPOKEN WORD of the Gospel is it's done in the Power of God. So a Saved Person/Elect, full of the Holy Spirit, SPEAKS the Gospel and it's done by the Power of God. And the hearer of the Gospel done in the Power of God becomes Regenerated.

5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction

Roman's 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
 
HeIsHere said:
Calvin quoted scripture too, but in a sense you are correct we really should go back to Augustine, now Augustine had a brilliant mind but he was not objective, when he interpreted scripture it was based on his own view of himself and his life, he was basically a scoundrel until his "conversion."

So being one of the first to teach this "system" is Augustine, experience informs me this "system" is dispersed throughout many books, pulpits etc., even if it not the full Augustine system.

So unless you can tell me you have never heard a sermon from the pulpit or read a book in your life you, me and many others have been influenced to see scripture through this lens.
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We all are the products of the influences of our lives. Some we choose; some are chosen for us. But I have studied the works of neither Calvin nor Augustine. And because it is easier to label people's ideas and dismiss them than it is to actually understand through scripture why someone has drawn the conclusions they have, one actually belittles another by employing such labels. This is my objection to easily dispersed labels.
 
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Cameron143 said:
It's not. Romans 10:17 says otherwise. Nothing about miracles in the passage other than the miracle of conversion.
You have taken an unrelated verse and made it your proof.
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Romans 10:17 -- "Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ" has nothing to do with the subject of which people Jesus died for.

You have clearly taken an unrelated verse and made it your proof.
 
Cameron143 said:
We all are the products of the influences of our lives. Some we choose; some are chosen for us. But I have studied the works of neither Calvin nor Augustine. And because it is easier to label people's ideas and dismiss them than it is to actually understand through scripture why someone has drawn the conclusions they have, one actually belittles another by employing such labels. This is my objection to easily dispersed labels.
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Yeah, I do not understand this, these are clearly doctrines developed by Augustine and later reworked somewhat by Calvin, if you believe one of the tenets of this view I do not see how it is pejorative to use the label.

People could label or place me into three camps which I will not name here and I would say yup that is what I believe lines up with scripture.
Now I would make sure that the label fits what I believe since obviously there are variations within a certain camps, but your statements about God choosing and limited atonement put you in the Calvinist camp.

If a believer starts with saving faith is a gift they have stepped into the Calvinist/Reformed camp whether they want to admit it or not because there is an equally sound doctrine that negates this interpretation.
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
They were only spoken to fulfill prophecy. Nothing else. The Disciples ""needed"" permission to understand them. If you were there and not the disciples you would not have the same permission.
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I wholeheartedly disagree. The word used is given which has far greater meaning than simply permission. And the point is emphasized by Jesus relating the giving to conversion. He is clearly linking hearing given to understanding that results in conversion.
If you go back to Isaiah 6, Isaiah is commissioned to share God's word. And he is told that his ministry will be largely ineffective because his preaching will shut up the ears and eyes to whom He ministers.
This was true in his time, but also was a picture of what would happen in the time of Christ. And that's exactly what happened. The people were prepared for judgement because hearing was withheld. The Babylonian captivity which resulted was a picture of the destruction of Israel in 70AD.
 
Cameron143 said:
I wholeheartedly disagree. The word used is given which has far greater meaning than simply permission. And the point is emphasized by Jesus relating the giving to conversion. He is clearly linking hearing given to understanding that results in conversion.
If you go back to Isaiah 6, Isaiah is commissioned to share God's word. And he is told that his ministry will be largely ineffective because his preaching will shut up the ears and eyes to whom He ministers.
This was true in his time, but also was a picture of what would happen in the time of Christ. And that's exactly what happened. The people were prepared for judgement because hearing was withheld. The Babylonian captivity which resulted was a picture of the destruction of Israel in 70AD.
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Yes, I agree with this, this is the temporal correct view, not that a every person cannot hear and believe unless God lets/chooses them to hear and believe.
 
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jamessb said:
Romans 10:17 -- "Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ" has nothing to do with the subject of which people Jesus died for.

You have clearly taken an unrelated verse and made it your proof.
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Does the word of God alone produce hearing?
 
Cameron143 said:
I wholeheartedly disagree. The word used is given which has far greater meaning than simply permission. And the point is emphasized by Jesus relating the giving to conversion. He is clearly linking hearing given to understanding that results in conversion.
If you go back to Isaiah 6, Isaiah is commissioned to share God's word. And he is told that his ministry will be largely ineffective because his preaching will shut up the ears and eyes to whom He ministers.
This was true in his time, but also was a picture of what would happen in the time of Christ. And that's exactly what happened. The people were prepared for judgement because hearing was withheld. The Babylonian captivity which resulted was a picture of the destruction of Israel in 70AD.
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I thought we were discussing parables. You seem to be talking about a couple things.
 
HeIsHere said:
Yeah, I do not understand this, these are clearly doctrines developed by Augustine and later reworked somewhat by Calvin, if you believe one of the tenets of this view I do not see how it is pejorative to use the label.

People could label or place me into three camps which I will not name here and I would say yup that is what I believe lines up with scripture.
Now I would make sure that the label fits what I believe since obviously there are variations within a certain camps, but your statements about God choosing and limited atonement put you in the Calvinist camp.

If a believer starts with saving faith is a gift they have stepped into the Calvinist/Reformed camp whether they want to admit it or not because there is an equally sound doctrine that negates this interpretation.
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I stated my objection. I don't claim it to be your motive or that I am personally offended. And in individual discussions, the use of labels might even prove helpful to the discussion. But you don't have to check out but even a few threads to see evidence of what I posited.
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
The key about the SPOKEN WORD of the Gospel is it's done in the Power of God. So a Saved Person/Elect, full of the Holy Spirit, SPEAKS the Gospel and it's done by the Power of God. And the hearer of the Gospel done in the Power of God becomes Regenerated.

5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction

Roman's 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
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Then why do not all who hear the Gospel message “done by the power of God” become regenerated? This is why the work of the Spirit must also be applied! All persons of the trinity work together, or the change will not occur.
 
BillyBob said:
Then why do not all who hear the Gospel message “done by the power of God” become regenerated? This is why the work of the Spirit must also be applied! All persons of the trinity work together, or the change will not occur.
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8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.


They heard the Gospel and rejected it QUENCHING the Holy Spirit's attempt to Regenerate them.
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
That's what the Bible clearly states, Jesus said to the Disciples, you have been given permission. It does not say anyone else it was only permitted to the Disciples.
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It actually says it was given them. Then Jesus goes on to explain what was given...the ability to understand. The context doesn't limit it to simply them. It merely compares them to those whom it is not given to.
 
Cameron143 said:
Preaching to the choir. I wasn't asking the question because I was looking for understanding; rather, I was trying to understand how other posters come to their understanding.
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I understood that, I was agreeing with you and adding comments. Dont get defensive on me
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
Paul says to believe you first must hear.
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Most of your Doctrine is Paul but on this you ignore him.
So your doctrine is based on convenience.
Typical.
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You cant hear the Gospel Spiritually without being born again, regenerated. Faith is fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

Jesus specifically said one must be of God to hear His words Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Vs 43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
 
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